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Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb

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  • Douglas Shannon
    ... The heraldry is a gold winged bear on a black field. ... I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that would just completely
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 9, 2002
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      > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
      >Subject: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
      >On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, das11228 wrote:
      > > This is probably the doubtest of questions I could possibly ask...
      > > But here goes..
      > > How would I represent european heraldry on Japanese garb?
      > > My knights colors are gold on a black field.
      > > I was think black hakama and a yellow kosode/hitatare/kimono; then
      > > silk-screening on a black circle with the area of the primary charge
      > > left open to show the yellow through...
      >
      >I think that the colors work, especially for later period garments. Is
      >there a charge?

      The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.

      >I wouldn't suggest putting an heraldic shield on the clothing, but you can
      >use the elements, assuming they are something the Japanese would have known
      >about.

      I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that
      would just completely take away for the apearance of the garment. We have a
      squire that basically dropped out of the SCA "because everyone began looking
      like mundanes in bathrobes", I would FEEL like a "mundane in a bathrobe" if
      I put heraldic shields on Japanese garb!

      I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
      something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

      >One thought is to print the charge over the garment--either black on gold
      >or vice-versa depending on the look you are going for.

      While this is a thought, my Knight has a tendancy to wear a similarly
      stylized houpelande, and I would not want to over-step my bounds; I doubt
      he'll like me doing Japanese to begin with.

      >You could also put 5 little 'mon' of the device--one in the back, one on
      >each sleeve, and two on the chest.

      I believe I had spoken with someone about doing something similar to this...
      I'm definately leaning mre toward this style.

      >You can even do combinations, although I would make sure there was a
      >difference between the 'mon' and the patterns you create.

      See above. Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
      that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for something
      to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).

      >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on back.

      ?? or ??, i'm still pretty Japanese illiterate and a heavy weapons
      fighter... Pictures or patterns work best for me...

      >Here is a copy of a garment made for the character Ii Naosuke on "Aoi:
      >Three Generations of Tokugawa", which is admittedly just after period (it
      >starts with the battle at Sekigahara). While I wouldn't use it as a source
      >for accuracy, I have seen similar garments (this was taken at the museum at
      >Hikone castle, given to the Ii family post-period)
      >
      >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG

      This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow stripes,
      would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the hakama??

      And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry on
      it?

      >and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
      >
      >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm

      This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
      segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

      >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm

      This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
      pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
      another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown tie at
      about mid-chest?

      >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
      >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm

      I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me wear
      them regardless....

      I've looked at the patterns on the Yahoo site, I just have no clue how to
      combine them into proper period attire or period color combinations...

      >(If you change it to "www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/..." then it should
      >give you the english page for each pict)
      >
      >I think that you can use some of these techniques to do something that
      >looks right and uses the colors you want.

      I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was wearing
      at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
      pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...

      Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
      Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?

      Douglas the Indecisive

      Now I'm in the mod to go rent Seven Samurai!

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    • Ii Saburou
      ... Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese heraldry, but you could look and see. ... Well, they had plenty of imaginary
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 9, 2002
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        On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:

        > The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.

        Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese
        heraldry, but you could look and see.

        > I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
        > something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

        Well, they had plenty of imaginary creatures, but I don't know if this
        fits into one. I would be leery of just making it up.

        > >You can even do combinations, although I would make sure there was a
        > >difference between the 'mon' and the patterns you create.
        >
        > See above. Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
        > that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for something
        > to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).

        Ahhh... that changes things. Fighting garb and court garb are different.

        Depending on how far you want to go, you'd want a kosode, hitatare, and
        hakama (specifically yoroi, or armour, hitatare and hakama). See the
        'files' section and check out Hiraizumi-dono's page: www.sengokudaimyo.com

        On top of that you wear the armor, and then over it all you may want to
        wear a jinbaori (a camp coat).

        In that case, you only have to worry about the jinbaori having designs,
        although if you make the hitatare and hakama with some kind of designs it
        will look rather spiff.

        > >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on back.
        >
        > ?? or ??, i'm still pretty Japanese illiterate and a heavy weapons
        > fighter... Pictures or patterns work best for me...

        Okay, I'll try to point them out in the illustrations I gave (if you go to
        the english versions of the pages below they should point out the names of
        the various garments, too)

        > >Here is a copy of a garment made for the character Ii Naosuke on "Aoi:
        > >Three Generations of Tokugawa", which is admittedly just after period (it
        > >starts with the battle at Sekigahara). While I wouldn't use it as a source
        > >for accuracy, I have seen similar garments (this was taken at the museum at
        > >Hikone castle, given to the Ii family post-period)
        > >
        > >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG
        >
        > This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow stripes,
        > would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the hakama??
        >
        > And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry on
        > it?

        Well, I think you would only do 3--no sleeves after all. This is not
        really what you want to wear on the battlefield, mind you.

        > >and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
        > >
        > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
        >
        > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
        > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

        Actually, you are looking at a nanban-dou. See sengokudaimyo.com for a
        great manual on armor construction. 'Nanban' means western-style, and it
        is a solid breastplate, with the kusazuri hanging below (those little,
        free hanging plates to protect the upper legs).

        The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
        other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
        Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
        just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
        flexible. Once again, see the website above for info, but essentially it
        was tied firmly together so that the plates should really be able to move
        on the breastplate.

        > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
        >
        > This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
        > pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
        > another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown tie at
        > about mid-chest?

        I would use the hakama-hitatare (the combination is often called
        'kamishimo') pattern for this. The brown tie at the top nominally keeps
        it closed although it seems, more realistically, that it is basically for
        decoration by this time. Underneath would be worn a kosode--more like a
        modern day kimono with sewn up sleeves (as opposed to the open sleeves you
        see).

        One thing to note is the koshi-ita. I'm not sure that the koshi-ita was
        actually being worn yet. At least, I've seen nothing in period that has
        led me to this conclusion.

        > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
        > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
        >
        > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me wear
        > them regardless....

        ? Why not.

        > I've looked at the patterns on the Yahoo site, I just have no clue how to
        > combine them into proper period attire or period color combinations...

        That comes with finding sources, like this, too look at and eventually get
        a good 'feel'. Also jidai-geki (period) movies such as 'Ran', 'Throne of
        Blood', the various Taiga dramas--these are good to at least get a feel
        for what it would be like (I don't support their use as actual
        documentation, though).

        > >(If you change it to "www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/..." then it should
        > >give you the english page for each pict)
        > >
        > >I think that you can use some of these techniques to do something that
        > >looks right and uses the colors you want.
        >
        > I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was wearing
        > at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
        > pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...
        >
        > Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
        > Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?

        Hmmm... I'm trying to remember exactly what that was--I don't recall that
        specific garment (I remember the color, but not the pattern). My first
        thought, though, would be to look at whether or not it had been dyed. Of
        course, you are dealing with a movie so it may just have been cinematic as
        well. Without a picture (couldn't find one easily on the 'net) I couldn't
        really say.

        -Ii
      • rujoking99@mac.com
        ... The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it s closer to lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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          >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
          >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
          > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
          > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

          The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
          lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
          riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
          multiple plates. What looks like a fastening up the front is actually a
          medial ridge, borrowing the "pigeonbreasted" look from European renaissance
          cuirasses worn by the Portuguese. It probably opens on the side or the
          back; I can't think of any Japanese armours that open up the front. The
          thigh and shoulder plates are articulated, and are held together with
          lacings. The shin guards, called Suneate, are basically splints riveted to
          a backing, and tied on; I've seen several ways of working SCA-legal knee
          protection into these. The helmet, called a Kabuto, is fairly standard,
          made up of what looks to be around 30 triangular plates riveted and welded
          together. Then the who shebang is lacquered over, and sculpted to give the
          desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
          work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
          period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
          Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
          wonderful site,
          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
          You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
          an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
          since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

          >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
          >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
          > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
          > wear
          > them regardless....

          As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
          headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
          wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
          to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
          sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
          was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
          comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

          I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

          Kinoshita Yoshimori
        • jcruz@sd.synetics.com
          On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote: ... a ... looking ... if ... Isn t this somewhat missing the thrust of the Laurel Kingdoms
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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            On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote:


            <Snipped>

            >I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that
            >would just completely take away for the apearance of the garment. We have
            a
            >squire that basically dropped out of the SCA "because everyone began
            looking
            >like mundanes in bathrobes", I would FEEL like a "mundane in a bathrobe"
            if
            >I put heraldic shields on Japanese garb!

            Isn't this somewhat missing the thrust of the "Laurel Kingdoms" argument?
            I mean, the idea that we don't have to fully justify Japanese contact with
            Europe is because we're not *in* Europe, but rather the Laurel Kingdoms.
            Right? Well, I've been in the Laurel Kingdoms for about 16 years now . . .
            I'm guessing I could have picked up a European mannerism or two from all
            these Gaijin I'm always exposed to. I've been awarded arms (a few years
            back and I'm chagrinned to report I still haven't registered any, in part
            because of this exact kind of discussion), by a European King, and was told
            to get together with that King's herlad's to determine suitable arms. This
            points in the direction of using European conventions. If I can find a way
            to use Japanese style charges, that's to my plus, but unless the dominant
            paradigm has changed, it's still got to conform to European standards in
            the end. That's just the way it is in the Laurel Kingdoms. Neh?

            >I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
            >something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

            Now here, I tend to agree. Most of the charges that Europeans use would
            never appeal to the sensibilities and aesthetics of the Japanese. Most of
            the charges wouldn't have the elegance, flow or simplicity that inform much
            of Japanese aesthetics. Rather, they might be considered garrish or
            downright ugly. So it's still a good idea to find themes which would be
            reflected well in Japanese convention. Nature based themes, even with
            objects not previously seen in Japan, would probably be well received, as
            would basic divisions of space.

            Just my two cents.

            --Ishii

            <Snipped end for brevity.>
          • Douglas Shannon
            ... I m not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not look completely european... These are my Knight/Household s arms... I just want
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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              > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
              >Subject: Re: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
              >On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:
              > > The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.
              >Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese
              >heraldry, but you could look and see.
              > > I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were
              >not
              > > something the Japanese would have concidered in period.
              >Well, they had plenty of imaginary creatures, but I don't know if this
              >fits into one. I would be leery of just making it up.

              I'm not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not
              look completely european...

              These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
              while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
              color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

              > > Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
              > > that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for
              >something
              > > to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).
              >Ahhh... that changes things. Fighting garb and court garb are different.
              >Depending on how far you want to go, you'd want a kosode, hitatare, and
              >hakama (specifically yoroi, or armour, hitatare and hakama). See the
              >'files' section and check out Hiraizumi-dono's page: www.sengokudaimyo.com

              I've managed to hit that site while at work, so I've printed and tagged alot
              of it.

              >On top of that you wear the armor, and then over it all you may want to
              >wear a jinbaori (a camp coat).
              >In that case, you only have to worry about the jinbaori having designs,
              >although if you make the hitatare and hakama with some kind of designs it
              >will look rather spiff.
              > > >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on
              >back.

              Ok.. I think I have a clue as to what you are saying...

              > > >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG
              > > This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow
              >stripes, would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the
              >hakama??
              > > And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry
              >on it?
              >Well, I think you would only do 3--no sleeves after all. This is not
              >really what you want to wear on the battlefield, mind you.

              Ok... I think I'm following...

              One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
              fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
              than a full set of armor.

              I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
              Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
              can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
              three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
              top-knot...

              > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
              > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
              > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
              >
              >Actually, you are looking at a nanban-dou. See sengokudaimyo.com for a
              >great manual on armor construction. 'Nanban' means western-style, and it
              >is a solid breastplate, with the kusazuri hanging below (those little,
              >free hanging plates to protect the upper legs).
              >
              >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
              >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
              >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
              >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
              >flexible.

              I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

              > > This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
              > > pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
              > > another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown
              >tie at
              > > about mid-chest?
              >I would use the hakama-hitatare (the combination is often called
              >'kamishimo') pattern for this. The brown tie at the top nominally keeps
              >it closed although it seems, more realistically, that it is basically for
              >decoration by this time. Underneath would be worn a kosode--more like a
              >modern day kimono with sewn up sleeves (as opposed to the open sleeves you
              >see).

              This is something that has been confusing me for some time...

              Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
              opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
              author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
              stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
              dress/houpelande.....

              > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
              > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
              > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
              >wear
              > > them regardless....
              >? Why not.

              She still has some modern tastes left in her...

              > > I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was
              >wearing
              > > at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
              > > pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...
              > > Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
              > > Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?
              >Hmmm... I'm trying to remember exactly what that was--I don't recall that
              >specific garment (I remember the color, but not the pattern). My first
              >thought, though, would be to look at whether or not it had been dyed. Of
              >course, you are dealing with a movie so it may just have been cinematic as
              >well. Without a picture (couldn't find one easily on the 'net) I couldn't
              >really say.

              I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
              beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
              sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
              wide like this:
              _ _ _ _
              / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
              \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
              / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

              Douglas the Indecisive

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            • Douglas Shannon
              ... ... Been there, printed that... It s crazy how much info he has on that site... ... As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:33:55 -0400
                > From: rujoking99@...
                >Subject: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
                >
                > >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
                > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
                > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
                > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
                >
                >The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
                >lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
                >riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
                >multiple plates.

                <snippage>

                >desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
                >work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
                >period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
                >Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
                >wonderful site,
                >http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                >You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
                >an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
                >since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

                Been there, printed that...

                It's crazy how much info he has on that site...

                > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
                > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
                > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
                > > wear
                > > them regardless....
                >
                >As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
                >headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
                >wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
                >to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
                >sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
                >was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
                >comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

                As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the hats...

                >I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

                Me too!

                Doulgas the Indeisive


                _________________________________________________________________
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              • Ii Saburou
                ... That would probably be the easiest way to go. ... Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY? ... Oddly enough, I ve found that the more rigid
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                  On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:

                  > These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
                  > while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
                  > color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

                  That would probably be the easiest way to go.

                  > Ok... I think I'm following...
                  >
                  > One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
                  > fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
                  > than a full set of armor.
                  >
                  > I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
                  > Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
                  > can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
                  > three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
                  > top-knot...

                  Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY?

                  > >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
                  > >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
                  > >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
                  > >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
                  > >flexible.
                  >
                  > I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

                  Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor actually seems to be
                  easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't moving all the weight
                  around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another list. (Although.. I'd
                  really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice mat. It is plates
                  held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe it refers to the
                  fact it can be rolled up])


                  > This is something that has been confusing me for some time...
                  >
                  > Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
                  > opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
                  > author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
                  > stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
                  > dress/houpelande.....

                  Good question. In early period, only the kosode were sewn in this manner,
                  and they were the undermost garments. To be seen in kosode (lit. small
                  sleeve, referring to the small opening) was to be caught in one's
                  underpants, so to speak.

                  Later, the fashion began to change and people started dressing down. You
                  see similar trends in clothing around the world. Soon, the sleeves were
                  peaking out from beneath your clothes, so you want them to look pretty,
                  and if it is going to be pretty, you want to show more of it off (just
                  guessing, not sure WHY it happened, precisely). Anyway, you see more
                  garments with kosode like sleeves -- I believe the uchikakke has them, and
                  many doubuku have them (this is a coat, worn outside the hakama and over a
                  kosode, with a front cut similar to the hitatare in that it is open,
                  rather than closed, in most cases). This used to be peasant and merchant
                  wear, but you see it as the lounge and relaxation wear of the later
                  periods.

                  Jinbaori, however, do not have kosode (small sleeves) because they are
                  made to go over armour, and small arm holes wouldn't make much sense.

                  > I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
                  > beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
                  > sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
                  > wide like this:
                  > _ _ _ _
                  > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
                  > \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
                  > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

                  My guess is it was painted on. Find out where the neck of the garment
                  will be and lay out your rectangular pieces, then apply paint in this
                  pattern. I've been told to go with acrylics, but haven't yet had a chance
                  to really test it out. I'm making a woodblock of my main character 'i',
                  or well, and was going to block that over some cloth and turn it into
                  something.

                  -Ii
                • michael A
                  well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how it perfroms once im finished. --kiyohara ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                    well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                    be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                    it perfroms once im finished.
                    --kiyohara
                    --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                    > Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor
                    > actually seems to be
                    > easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't
                    > moving all the weight
                    > around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another
                    > list. (Although.. I'd
                    > really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice
                    > mat. It is plates
                    > held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe
                    > it refers to the
                    > fact it can be rolled up])


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                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... I would love to know. I m especially curious as to how well it will hold up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some brig. that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 11, 2002
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                      On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:

                      > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                      > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                      > it perfroms once im finished.
                      > --kiyohara

                      I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to how well it will hold
                      up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some
                      brig. that I've seen out there.

                      I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking of doing a nanban do
                      next.

                      -Ii
                    • michael A
                      i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4 id. i will probably go
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 11, 2002
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                        i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it
                        took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and
                        doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4"id. i will probably go
                        down to 18ga plates on the next piece with the same
                        link construction.
                        --kiyohara
                        --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                        > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:
                        >
                        > > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now.
                        > id
                        > > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you
                        > how
                        > > it perfroms once im finished.
                        > > --kiyohara
                        >
                        > I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to
                        > how well it will hold
                        > up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no
                        > worse off than some
                        > brig. that I've seen out there.
                        >
                        > I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking
                        > of doing a nanban do
                        > next.
                        >
                        > -Ii
                        >
                        >
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