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European heraldry on Japanese garb

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  • das11228
    This is probably the doubtest of questions I could possibly ask... But here goes.. How would I represent european heraldry on Japanese garb? My knights colors
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 5, 2002
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      This is probably the doubtest of questions I could possibly ask...

      But here goes..


      How would I represent european heraldry on Japanese garb?

      My knights colors are gold on a black field.

      I was think black hakama and a yellow kosode/hitatare/kimono; then
      silk-screening on a black circle with the area of the primary charge
      left open to show the yellow through...

      Am I way off base??

      Also, my own colors and white a red with a verticle zigzag split,
      what would be a nearly appropriate way of doing this on Japanese garb?

      Douglas the Indecisive
      (not a full time Japanese personae)
    • Ii Saburou
      ... I think that the colors work, especially for later period garments. Is there a charge? I wouldn t suggest putting an heraldic shield on the clothing, but
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 5, 2002
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        On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, das11228 wrote:

        > This is probably the doubtest of questions I could possibly ask...
        >
        > But here goes..
        >
        >
        > How would I represent european heraldry on Japanese garb?
        >
        > My knights colors are gold on a black field.
        >
        > I was think black hakama and a yellow kosode/hitatare/kimono; then
        > silk-screening on a black circle with the area of the primary charge
        > left open to show the yellow through...

        I think that the colors work, especially for later period garments. Is
        there a charge?

        I wouldn't suggest putting an heraldic shield on the clothing, but you can
        use the elements, assuming they are something the Japanese would have
        known about. One thought is to print the charge over the garment--either
        black on gold or vice-versa depending on the look you are going for. You
        could also put 5 little 'mon' of the device--one in the back, one on each
        sleeve, and two on the chest. You can even do combinations, although I
        would make sure there was a difference between the 'mon' and the patterns
        you create.

        If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on back.

        Here is a copy of a garment made for the character Ii Naosuke on "Aoi:
        Three Generations of Tokugawa", which is admittedly just after period (it
        starts with the battle at Sekigahara). While I wouldn't use it as a
        source for accuracy, I have seen similar garments (this was taken at the
        museum at Hikone castle, given to the Ii family post-period)

        http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG

        and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:

        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm

        (If you change it to "www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/..." then it should
        give you the english page for each pict)

        I think that you can use some of these techniques to do something that
        looks right and uses the colors you want.

        k-Ii
      • Douglas Shannon
        ... The heraldry is a gold winged bear on a black field. ... I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that would just completely
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 9, 2002
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          > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
          >Subject: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
          >On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, das11228 wrote:
          > > This is probably the doubtest of questions I could possibly ask...
          > > But here goes..
          > > How would I represent european heraldry on Japanese garb?
          > > My knights colors are gold on a black field.
          > > I was think black hakama and a yellow kosode/hitatare/kimono; then
          > > silk-screening on a black circle with the area of the primary charge
          > > left open to show the yellow through...
          >
          >I think that the colors work, especially for later period garments. Is
          >there a charge?

          The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.

          >I wouldn't suggest putting an heraldic shield on the clothing, but you can
          >use the elements, assuming they are something the Japanese would have known
          >about.

          I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that
          would just completely take away for the apearance of the garment. We have a
          squire that basically dropped out of the SCA "because everyone began looking
          like mundanes in bathrobes", I would FEEL like a "mundane in a bathrobe" if
          I put heraldic shields on Japanese garb!

          I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
          something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

          >One thought is to print the charge over the garment--either black on gold
          >or vice-versa depending on the look you are going for.

          While this is a thought, my Knight has a tendancy to wear a similarly
          stylized houpelande, and I would not want to over-step my bounds; I doubt
          he'll like me doing Japanese to begin with.

          >You could also put 5 little 'mon' of the device--one in the back, one on
          >each sleeve, and two on the chest.

          I believe I had spoken with someone about doing something similar to this...
          I'm definately leaning mre toward this style.

          >You can even do combinations, although I would make sure there was a
          >difference between the 'mon' and the patterns you create.

          See above. Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
          that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for something
          to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).

          >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on back.

          ?? or ??, i'm still pretty Japanese illiterate and a heavy weapons
          fighter... Pictures or patterns work best for me...

          >Here is a copy of a garment made for the character Ii Naosuke on "Aoi:
          >Three Generations of Tokugawa", which is admittedly just after period (it
          >starts with the battle at Sekigahara). While I wouldn't use it as a source
          >for accuracy, I have seen similar garments (this was taken at the museum at
          >Hikone castle, given to the Ii family post-period)
          >
          >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG

          This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow stripes,
          would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the hakama??

          And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry on
          it?

          >and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
          >
          >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm

          This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
          segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

          >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm

          This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
          pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
          another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown tie at
          about mid-chest?

          >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
          >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm

          I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me wear
          them regardless....

          I've looked at the patterns on the Yahoo site, I just have no clue how to
          combine them into proper period attire or period color combinations...

          >(If you change it to "www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/..." then it should
          >give you the english page for each pict)
          >
          >I think that you can use some of these techniques to do something that
          >looks right and uses the colors you want.

          I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was wearing
          at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
          pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...

          Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
          Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?

          Douglas the Indecisive

          Now I'm in the mod to go rent Seven Samurai!

          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Ii Saburou
          ... Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese heraldry, but you could look and see. ... Well, they had plenty of imaginary
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 9, 2002
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            On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:

            > The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.

            Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese
            heraldry, but you could look and see.

            > I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
            > something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

            Well, they had plenty of imaginary creatures, but I don't know if this
            fits into one. I would be leery of just making it up.

            > >You can even do combinations, although I would make sure there was a
            > >difference between the 'mon' and the patterns you create.
            >
            > See above. Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
            > that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for something
            > to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).

            Ahhh... that changes things. Fighting garb and court garb are different.

            Depending on how far you want to go, you'd want a kosode, hitatare, and
            hakama (specifically yoroi, or armour, hitatare and hakama). See the
            'files' section and check out Hiraizumi-dono's page: www.sengokudaimyo.com

            On top of that you wear the armor, and then over it all you may want to
            wear a jinbaori (a camp coat).

            In that case, you only have to worry about the jinbaori having designs,
            although if you make the hitatare and hakama with some kind of designs it
            will look rather spiff.

            > >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on back.
            >
            > ?? or ??, i'm still pretty Japanese illiterate and a heavy weapons
            > fighter... Pictures or patterns work best for me...

            Okay, I'll try to point them out in the illustrations I gave (if you go to
            the english versions of the pages below they should point out the names of
            the various garments, too)

            > >Here is a copy of a garment made for the character Ii Naosuke on "Aoi:
            > >Three Generations of Tokugawa", which is admittedly just after period (it
            > >starts with the battle at Sekigahara). While I wouldn't use it as a source
            > >for accuracy, I have seen similar garments (this was taken at the museum at
            > >Hikone castle, given to the Ii family post-period)
            > >
            > >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG
            >
            > This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow stripes,
            > would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the hakama??
            >
            > And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry on
            > it?

            Well, I think you would only do 3--no sleeves after all. This is not
            really what you want to wear on the battlefield, mind you.

            > >and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
            > >
            > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
            >
            > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
            > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

            Actually, you are looking at a nanban-dou. See sengokudaimyo.com for a
            great manual on armor construction. 'Nanban' means western-style, and it
            is a solid breastplate, with the kusazuri hanging below (those little,
            free hanging plates to protect the upper legs).

            The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
            other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
            Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
            just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
            flexible. Once again, see the website above for info, but essentially it
            was tied firmly together so that the plates should really be able to move
            on the breastplate.

            > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/17.htm
            >
            > This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
            > pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
            > another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown tie at
            > about mid-chest?

            I would use the hakama-hitatare (the combination is often called
            'kamishimo') pattern for this. The brown tie at the top nominally keeps
            it closed although it seems, more realistically, that it is basically for
            decoration by this time. Underneath would be worn a kosode--more like a
            modern day kimono with sewn up sleeves (as opposed to the open sleeves you
            see).

            One thing to note is the koshi-ita. I'm not sure that the koshi-ita was
            actually being worn yet. At least, I've seen nothing in period that has
            led me to this conclusion.

            > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
            > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
            >
            > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me wear
            > them regardless....

            ? Why not.

            > I've looked at the patterns on the Yahoo site, I just have no clue how to
            > combine them into proper period attire or period color combinations...

            That comes with finding sources, like this, too look at and eventually get
            a good 'feel'. Also jidai-geki (period) movies such as 'Ran', 'Throne of
            Blood', the various Taiga dramas--these are good to at least get a feel
            for what it would be like (I don't support their use as actual
            documentation, though).

            > >(If you change it to "www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/..." then it should
            > >give you the english page for each pict)
            > >
            > >I think that you can use some of these techniques to do something that
            > >looks right and uses the colors you want.
            >
            > I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was wearing
            > at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
            > pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...
            >
            > Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
            > Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?

            Hmmm... I'm trying to remember exactly what that was--I don't recall that
            specific garment (I remember the color, but not the pattern). My first
            thought, though, would be to look at whether or not it had been dyed. Of
            course, you are dealing with a movie so it may just have been cinematic as
            well. Without a picture (couldn't find one easily on the 'net) I couldn't
            really say.

            -Ii
          • rujoking99@mac.com
            ... The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it s closer to lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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              >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
              >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
              > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
              > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.

              The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
              lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
              riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
              multiple plates. What looks like a fastening up the front is actually a
              medial ridge, borrowing the "pigeonbreasted" look from European renaissance
              cuirasses worn by the Portuguese. It probably opens on the side or the
              back; I can't think of any Japanese armours that open up the front. The
              thigh and shoulder plates are articulated, and are held together with
              lacings. The shin guards, called Suneate, are basically splints riveted to
              a backing, and tied on; I've seen several ways of working SCA-legal knee
              protection into these. The helmet, called a Kabuto, is fairly standard,
              made up of what looks to be around 30 triangular plates riveted and welded
              together. Then the who shebang is lacquered over, and sculpted to give the
              desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
              work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
              period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
              Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
              wonderful site,
              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
              You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
              an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
              since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

              >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
              >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
              > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
              > wear
              > them regardless....

              As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
              headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
              wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
              to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
              sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
              was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
              comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

              I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

              Kinoshita Yoshimori
            • jcruz@sd.synetics.com
              On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote: ... a ... looking ... if ... Isn t this somewhat missing the thrust of the Laurel Kingdoms
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                On 06/09/2002 08:03:43 AM Douglas the Indecisive wrote:


                <Snipped>

                >I definately would not want to use a european eraldic shield. To me, that
                >would just completely take away for the apearance of the garment. We have
                a
                >squire that basically dropped out of the SCA "because everyone began
                looking
                >like mundanes in bathrobes", I would FEEL like a "mundane in a bathrobe"
                if
                >I put heraldic shields on Japanese garb!

                Isn't this somewhat missing the thrust of the "Laurel Kingdoms" argument?
                I mean, the idea that we don't have to fully justify Japanese contact with
                Europe is because we're not *in* Europe, but rather the Laurel Kingdoms.
                Right? Well, I've been in the Laurel Kingdoms for about 16 years now . . .
                I'm guessing I could have picked up a European mannerism or two from all
                these Gaijin I'm always exposed to. I've been awarded arms (a few years
                back and I'm chagrinned to report I still haven't registered any, in part
                because of this exact kind of discussion), by a European King, and was told
                to get together with that King's herlad's to determine suitable arms. This
                points in the direction of using European conventions. If I can find a way
                to use Japanese style charges, that's to my plus, but unless the dominant
                paradigm has changed, it's still got to conform to European standards in
                the end. That's just the way it is in the Laurel Kingdoms. Neh?

                >I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were not
                >something the Japanese would have concidered in period.

                Now here, I tend to agree. Most of the charges that Europeans use would
                never appeal to the sensibilities and aesthetics of the Japanese. Most of
                the charges wouldn't have the elegance, flow or simplicity that inform much
                of Japanese aesthetics. Rather, they might be considered garrish or
                downright ugly. So it's still a good idea to find themes which would be
                reflected well in Japanese convention. Nature based themes, even with
                objects not previously seen in Japan, would probably be well received, as
                would basic divisions of space.

                Just my two cents.

                --Ishii

                <Snipped end for brevity.>
              • Douglas Shannon
                ... I m not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not look completely european... These are my Knight/Household s arms... I just want
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                  > From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                  >Subject: Re: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
                  >On Sun, 9 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:
                  > > The heraldry is a gold "winged bear" on a black field.
                  >Hmmm... not sure that you would necessarily get away with that in Japanese
                  >heraldry, but you could look and see.
                  > > I'm concerned that the european "imaginary creature" combinations were
                  >not
                  > > something the Japanese would have concidered in period.
                  >Well, they had plenty of imaginary creatures, but I don't know if this
                  >fits into one. I would be leery of just making it up.

                  I'm not looking to register it, just present it in a way that it would not
                  look completely european...

                  These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
                  while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
                  color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

                  > > Also, if this were to be "court garb" I would consider putting
                  > > that much extra effort into the garment, but I'm looking mre for
                  >something
                  > > to fight in (garb,not armor;that's the next project).
                  >Ahhh... that changes things. Fighting garb and court garb are different.
                  >Depending on how far you want to go, you'd want a kosode, hitatare, and
                  >hakama (specifically yoroi, or armour, hitatare and hakama). See the
                  >'files' section and check out Hiraizumi-dono's page: www.sengokudaimyo.com

                  I've managed to hit that site while at work, so I've printed and tagged alot
                  of it.

                  >On top of that you wear the armor, and then over it all you may want to
                  >wear a jinbaori (a camp coat).
                  >In that case, you only have to worry about the jinbaori having designs,
                  >although if you make the hitatare and hakama with some kind of designs it
                  >will look rather spiff.
                  > > >If you make a jinbaori or doubuku then you could put a large mon on
                  >back.

                  Ok.. I think I have a clue as to what you are saying...

                  > > >http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/pictures/iifuku.JPG
                  > > This is pretty interesting.. If that were done in black with yellow
                  >stripes, would a yellow kimonon be worn under it and get tucked into the
                  >hakama??
                  > > And could I still do the 5 little "mon" placement of my Knights heraldry
                  >on it?
                  >Well, I think you would only do 3--no sleeves after all. This is not
                  >really what you want to wear on the battlefield, mind you.

                  Ok... I think I'm following...

                  One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
                  fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
                  than a full set of armor.

                  I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
                  Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
                  can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
                  three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
                  top-knot...

                  > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
                  > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
                  > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
                  >
                  >Actually, you are looking at a nanban-dou. See sengokudaimyo.com for a
                  >great manual on armor construction. 'Nanban' means western-style, and it
                  >is a solid breastplate, with the kusazuri hanging below (those little,
                  >free hanging plates to protect the upper legs).
                  >
                  >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
                  >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
                  >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
                  >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
                  >flexible.

                  I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

                  > > This looks like it's just hakama and hitatare (is that made for a kimono
                  > > pattern?) in the same pattern (the sleaves apear to be lined), is there
                  > > another (white) kimono under the outer garment? And what is the brown
                  >tie at
                  > > about mid-chest?
                  >I would use the hakama-hitatare (the combination is often called
                  >'kamishimo') pattern for this. The brown tie at the top nominally keeps
                  >it closed although it seems, more realistically, that it is basically for
                  >decoration by this time. Underneath would be worn a kosode--more like a
                  >modern day kimono with sewn up sleeves (as opposed to the open sleeves you
                  >see).

                  This is something that has been confusing me for some time...

                  Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
                  opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
                  author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
                  stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
                  dress/houpelande.....

                  > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
                  > > >http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
                  > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
                  >wear
                  > > them regardless....
                  >? Why not.

                  She still has some modern tastes left in her...

                  > > I was watching Ran last night, and the blue garment that Saburo was
                  >wearing
                  > > at the begining was very interesting... like a ski blue with a hexagon
                  > > pattern across the front and black in a very light blue/silver...
                  > > Was something like this period for the SCA time frame?
                  > > Would it be acceptable to produce the hex pattern in satin ribbon?
                  >Hmmm... I'm trying to remember exactly what that was--I don't recall that
                  >specific garment (I remember the color, but not the pattern). My first
                  >thought, though, would be to look at whether or not it had been dyed. Of
                  >course, you are dealing with a movie so it may just have been cinematic as
                  >well. Without a picture (couldn't find one easily on the 'net) I couldn't
                  >really say.

                  I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
                  beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
                  sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
                  wide like this:
                  _ _ _ _
                  / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
                  \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
                  / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

                  Douglas the Indecisive

                  _________________________________________________________________
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                • Douglas Shannon
                  ... ... Been there, printed that... It s crazy how much info he has on that site... ... As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                    > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:33:55 -0400
                    > From: rujoking99@...
                    >Subject: Re: European heraldry on Japanese garb
                    >
                    > >> and here are some ideas from the Kyoto costume museum:
                    > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/37.htm
                    > > This armor looks promising... is it similaer to a brigandine or lorica
                    > > segmentata?? I'm guessing lorica.
                    >
                    >The chest armour is called the Do. In a manner of speaking, it's closer to
                    >lorica. However, you should think of it as lorica, where the plates are
                    >riveted and lacquered over to make one solid plate, but with the look of
                    >multiple plates.

                    <snippage>

                    >desired look. The face armour, called a Menpo, would be interesting to
                    >work into SCA armour, but if you're out to win bouts rather than look
                    >period, most people I've heard say you should go with a regular bar-grille.
                    >Effingham, did I miss anything here? Speaking of Effingham, he's got a
                    >wonderful site,
                    >http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/
                    >You should hit there to look at his Online Japanese Miscellany, as well as
                    >an incredible work about building Japanese armour. It should be illegal,
                    >since it's a felony to kick this much butt. <G>

                    Been there, printed that...

                    It's crazy how much info he has on that site...

                    > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/6.htm
                    > >> http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/5.htm
                    > > I'm not big on the hats on these last two... my wife would never let me
                    > > wear
                    > > them regardless....
                    >
                    >As for the doofy hat, it's called an Eboshi, and it was the most common
                    >headwear for samurai in court. It does look a little odd, but for court
                    >wear, you can't really go wrong with it. There are other types that tend
                    >to look less doofy, including one that looks like you're wearing a black
                    >sock, wind-blown to the side of your head. Of course, though the eboshi
                    >was the most popular headwear, it still can't compete with a cool,
                    >comfortable bare head, especially at Pennsic.

                    As previously stated... I doubt my wife would go for the hats...

                    >I hope I've gotten everything pretty much right.

                    Me too!

                    Doulgas the Indeisive


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                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... That would probably be the easiest way to go. ... Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY? ... Oddly enough, I ve found that the more rigid
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                      On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Douglas Shannon wrote:

                      > These are my Knight/Household's arms... I just want to still fly the colors
                      > while I'm in Japanese garb. But I'm begining to lean toward just working the
                      > color scheme and dropping the actual arms...

                      That would probably be the easiest way to go.

                      > Ok... I think I'm following...
                      >
                      > One of the things I'm looking to do is come up with minimum armor that will
                      > fit under garb to do tourneys in... More of a samurai in a duel image rather
                      > than a full set of armor.
                      >
                      > I just have to come up with a very low profile helm. I had found a place in
                      > Jersey that colors stainless steel in a process similar to anodizing.. but I
                      > can't find the link now... I was thinking of coloring the bottom
                      > three-quarters of a helm black to give the image of a shaved pate and
                      > top-knot...

                      Jersey you say? Where are you at? New Jersey, PA, NY?

                      > >The more traditional Japanese armours were similar to scale armours of
                      > >other mounted warriors, with elaborate lacing and other differences.
                      > >Later armours imitated this style with lames of solid metal. However,
                      > >just because it isn't always a solid piece, doesn't mean that it was
                      > >flexible.
                      >
                      > I'm currently fighting in a coat-of-plates that is hardly flexible at all.

                      Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor actually seems to be
                      easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't moving all the weight
                      around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another list. (Although.. I'd
                      really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice mat. It is plates
                      held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe it refers to the
                      fact it can be rolled up])


                      > This is something that has been confusing me for some time...
                      >
                      > Are the sleeve ends sown like a peapod sleeve?? Hpw much of the actual
                      > opening is closed? I'm ready some historical fiction right now and the
                      > author has everyone stuffing money and food in their sleeves and it just
                      > stays in there... I thought the sleave ends were open like an angel-wing
                      > dress/houpelande.....

                      Good question. In early period, only the kosode were sewn in this manner,
                      and they were the undermost garments. To be seen in kosode (lit. small
                      sleeve, referring to the small opening) was to be caught in one's
                      underpants, so to speak.

                      Later, the fashion began to change and people started dressing down. You
                      see similar trends in clothing around the world. Soon, the sleeves were
                      peaking out from beneath your clothes, so you want them to look pretty,
                      and if it is going to be pretty, you want to show more of it off (just
                      guessing, not sure WHY it happened, precisely). Anyway, you see more
                      garments with kosode like sleeves -- I believe the uchikakke has them, and
                      many doubuku have them (this is a coat, worn outside the hakama and over a
                      kosode, with a front cut similar to the hitatare in that it is open,
                      rather than closed, in most cases). This used to be peasant and merchant
                      wear, but you see it as the lounge and relaxation wear of the later
                      periods.

                      Jinbaori, however, do not have kosode (small sleeves) because they are
                      made to go over armour, and small arm holes wouldn't make much sense.

                      > I tried to find a decent pic and came up with nothing as well.... it was a
                      > beautiful row of hexes across the front and back, straight across from
                      > sleave opening to sleave opening... I think it was only maybe 1.5 or 2 hexes
                      > wide like this:
                      > _ _ _ _
                      > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_
                      > \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/
                      > / \_/ \_/ \_/ \_

                      My guess is it was painted on. Find out where the neck of the garment
                      will be and lay out your rectangular pieces, then apply paint in this
                      pattern. I've been told to go with acrylics, but haven't yet had a chance
                      to really test it out. I'm making a woodblock of my main character 'i',
                      or well, and was going to block that over some cloth and turn it into
                      something.

                      -Ii
                    • michael A
                      well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how it perfroms once im finished. --kiyohara ...
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 10, 2002
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                        well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                        be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                        it perfroms once im finished.
                        --kiyohara
                        --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                        > Oddly enough, I've found that the more rigid armor
                        > actually seems to be
                        > easier to move it. Perhaps it is because you aren't
                        > moving all the weight
                        > around.. .but I guess that's a topic for another
                        > list. (Although.. I'd
                        > really love to see a good tatami-do [tatami != rice
                        > mat. It is plates
                        > held together by maille, as I've seen it. I believe
                        > it refers to the
                        > fact it can be rolled up])


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                      • Ii Saburou
                        ... I would love to know. I m especially curious as to how well it will hold up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some brig. that
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 11, 2002
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                          On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:

                          > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now. id
                          > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you how
                          > it perfroms once im finished.
                          > --kiyohara

                          I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to how well it will hold
                          up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no worse off than some
                          brig. that I've seen out there.

                          I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking of doing a nanban do
                          next.

                          -Ii
                        • michael A
                          i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4 id. i will probably go
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 11, 2002
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                            i tested a 3x3 section of plates at a practice. it
                            took the abuse no problem. i was using 16ga plates and
                            doubled up rings of 16ga 1/4"id. i will probably go
                            down to 18ga plates on the next piece with the same
                            link construction.
                            --kiyohara
                            --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                            > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, michael A wrote:
                            >
                            > > well im working on 2 sets of tatami do right now.
                            > id
                            > > be happy to show you,take pictures and/or tell you
                            > how
                            > > it perfroms once im finished.
                            > > --kiyohara
                            >
                            > I would love to know. I'm especially curious as to
                            > how well it will hold
                            > up. I would guess that, protection wise, it is no
                            > worse off than some
                            > brig. that I've seen out there.
                            >
                            > I need to build a new set of armor, but I'm thinking
                            > of doing a nanban do
                            > next.
                            >
                            > -Ii
                            >
                            >
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