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A matter of utmost importance...

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  • dateyukiie
    Konnichi wa, tomodachi to all of the list from Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie... Effingham-dono...I desperately would like to share something with you if
    Message 1 of 12 , May 20, 2002
      Konnichi wa, tomodachi to all of the list from Yama Kaminari no Date
      Saburou Yukiie...

      Effingham-dono...I desperately would like to share something with you
      if you would write to me at Kabuto@.... There is an important
      and delicate matter I need your help and expertice in...

      In service...
      Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
    • Elaine Koogler
      Actually it may have come up because there was a discussion of non-European personas and their being acceptable in the SCA. Actually, the main part of the
      Message 2 of 12 , May 20, 2002
        Actually it may have come up because there was a discussion of non-European personas and their being acceptable in the SCA. Actually, the main part of the discussion had to do with some folks getting tired of seeing more non-European personas than European in a group that is supposedly dedicated to the recreation of the Middle Ages and Renaissance in Western Europe. They admitted that the Middle Eastern folks were ok because there was a great deal of interaction...but felt that, among others, the Japanese may not really belong. But their main objection was to folks who claim to be Mongol or some other "barbarian" type and behave that way because it's too much trouble to do something civilized.

        The discussion about Japanese in Europe came about when one individual insisted that they essentially were brought to Europe by Europeans more as trophies or such. This person was quickly corrected by documented references!

        Kiri
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ron Martino
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 8:26 PM
        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] that old argument :documentation


        Arashisan@... wrote:
        >
        > Theres an ongoing argument about the japanese who travelled to Europe.
        > Someone is saying there were only three documented and they were Monks. This
        > persons source is questionable so I was just wondering if anyone knows more
        > on the subject. Is there anything about reaching France??

        I would ask in turn why this question has been raised. If it is because
        someone wishes to argue that a very small number of Japanese in Europe
        pre-1600 means there should be a very small number of (or no) Japanese
        in the Society, I would point out that we're not /in/ Europe, so that
        factoid is immaterial. We are instead in the Laurel Kingdoms, and we of
        Japanese origin got here the same way everyone else did - we failed to
        take that left turn in Albuquerque.

        Yumitori
        --

        yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com

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      • Ron Martino
        ... Seems to me that the real issue then is why folks prefer such personas. ... Like the greatly disportionate number of vikings to other early period folks?
        Message 3 of 12 , May 20, 2002
          > Actually, the main part of the discussion had to do with some folks getting tired of seeing more non-European personas than European in a group that is supposedly dedicated to the recreation of the Middle Ages and Renaissance in Western Europe.

          Seems to me that the real issue then is why folks prefer such personas.

          > But their main objection was to folks
          > who claim to be Mongol or some other "barbarian" type and behave that way because it's too much trouble to do something civilized.

          Like the greatly disportionate number of 'vikings' to other early
          period folks?

          > The discussion about Japanese in Europe came about when one individual insisted that they essentially were brought to Europe by Europeans more as trophies or such. This person was quickly corrected by documented references!
          >
          > Kiri

          And my response would /still/ be, 'Why would the truth or lack thereof
          of such a claim be material?' We're not in Europe. If the masses wish to
          ban Japanese from the SCA, they can go through the proper channels to do
          so, but any claim based on the number (or type) of Japanese in Europe
          pre-1600 isn't valid. We've already removed the Society from that
          setting.

          Yumitori
          --

          yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
        • Elaine Koogler
          I agree...and the original poster did back down and admit that there were a number of us who have Japanese personas who do an enormous amount of research in
          Message 4 of 12 , May 20, 2002
            I agree...and the original poster did back down and admit that there were a number of us who have Japanese personas who do an enormous amount of research in order to be able to do them accurately and well. In the beginning, we did have a number of folks, at least in Atlantia, who wanted to be Japanese because they thought it meant they could be Ninja and wear that "cool Ninja garb"!! I spent a number of years reminding them that the only known Ninja is a dead Ninja. That managed to convince them to cease and desist...and they went back to their easier-for-them Viking and Saxon personas! And I don't mean that as an indictment of those types of persona...I know folks who do Viking and do it extremely well....

            Kiri
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ron Martino
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 10:26 AM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] that old argument :documentation


            > Actually, the main part of the discussion had to do with some folks getting tired of seeing more non-European personas than European in a group that is supposedly dedicated to the recreation of the Middle Ages and Renaissance in Western Europe.

            Seems to me that the real issue then is why folks prefer such personas.

            > But their main objection was to folks
            > who claim to be Mongol or some other "barbarian" type and behave that way because it's too much trouble to do something civilized.

            Like the greatly disportionate number of 'vikings' to other early
            period folks?

            > The discussion about Japanese in Europe came about when one individual insisted that they essentially were brought to Europe by Europeans more as trophies or such. This person was quickly corrected by documented references!
            >
            > Kiri

            And my response would /still/ be, 'Why would the truth or lack thereof
            of such a claim be material?' We're not in Europe. If the masses wish to
            ban Japanese from the SCA, they can go through the proper channels to do
            so, but any claim based on the number (or type) of Japanese in Europe
            pre-1600 isn't valid. We've already removed the Society from that
            setting.

            Yumitori
            --

            yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • dateyukiie
            Konnichi wa tomodachi... I have been playing with the SCA since mundane time 1979...a few years or so I think... ...There were a few japonese persona who
            Message 5 of 12 , May 20, 2002
              Konnichi wa tomodachi...
              I have been playing with the SCA since mundane time 1979...a few years
              or so I think...
              ...There were a few "japonese persona" who were liberal in their
              thinking... back then...
              The SCA always had their charter as being..."yada yada... non-asian,"
              as if the european continent were truely separated from the rest of
              the world, like a Darwinian island...
              ...then someone opened a book and did "research..."
              Damned if the continent did not include people who travled through the
              steps of what we call russia at that time...
              Jeeze...there seems to have been silks and such brought up from that
              india place...
              Spices...never heard of them...sorry...where did you say that cinnamon
              comes from...?
              Chess? What the heck is that? a place to put your clothes?
              Those russian/mongol fellows...they struggled to take over what world
              during that time...you mean they did really have contact with the
              roman empire of the time?
              Their shores of those same Steppe dwellers...were raided by whom?
              Those china guys, they considered themselves the center of which
              world? The world?
              Who patterened their government off of Chang'an?...and borrowed their
              clothing styles...

              Everything was linked, in the day, far more than the six steps to
              Kevin Bacon are today...(pardon me...)


              Perhaps the time period should have been the focus, and not the
              ethnocentric-back-yard-only-lets-play-camelot recreation group...they
              gave themselves enough rope, as it were...forgive us if we took it and
              said..."but what about..."

              This far into SCA history, the definitions should be re-written,
              perhaps...IMHO. It would get rid of many arguments...If the charter
              forbids "religious argument" then it might be wise to forbid
              "continental, racial, and linguistic" argument, and just allowed the
              people who wanted to play...to play...as long as they played "together..."

              Since then, the non Gaijin have been playing catch-up...and for the
              most part, although "accepted" do not seem to be of equal class...
              This game can be fun for the people who want to play...and for those
              who want to play,...even if it is in different clothes...we will still
              have to struggle...


              This is a stand alone rant...that I have been having for more than
              twenty years...
              It seems to fit in with the current thread...but forgive me for
              blowing the dust off of it if you do not think so...

              Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie...
            • Elaine Koogler
              Hey...you get no argument from me. I ve been doing this for almost as long as you have, and have been fighting the same battles. I still regard getting my
              Message 6 of 12 , May 21, 2002
                Hey...you get no argument from me. I've been doing this for almost as long as you have, and have been fighting the same battles. I still regard getting my Laurel partially for "research and teaching Japanese culture" as "interesting"...especially as I had been told so many times for many years that I would never get a Laurel because I did "Japanese"!! In saying this, please understand...I was very highly honored to receive this recognition, and treasure it and the experience of my elevation. I also do not intend these statements to be critical of my fellow Laurels...it just illustrates how thinking has finally begun to turn around.

                Kiri
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: dateyukiie
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 2:24 PM
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Time period vs. that old argument...


                Konnichi wa tomodachi...
                I have been playing with the SCA since mundane time 1979...a few years
                or so I think...
                ...There were a few "japonese persona" who were liberal in their
                thinking... back then...
                The SCA always had their charter as being..."yada yada... non-asian,"
                as if the european continent were truely separated from the rest of
                the world, like a Darwinian island...
                ...then someone opened a book and did "research..."
                Damned if the continent did not include people who travled through the
                steps of what we call russia at that time...
                Jeeze...there seems to have been silks and such brought up from that
                india place...
                Spices...never heard of them...sorry...where did you say that cinnamon
                comes from...?
                Chess? What the heck is that? a place to put your clothes?
                Those russian/mongol fellows...they struggled to take over what world
                during that time...you mean they did really have contact with the
                roman empire of the time?
                Their shores of those same Steppe dwellers...were raided by whom?
                Those china guys, they considered themselves the center of which
                world? The world?
                Who patterened their government off of Chang'an?...and borrowed their
                clothing styles...

                Everything was linked, in the day, far more than the six steps to
                Kevin Bacon are today...(pardon me...)


                Perhaps the time period should have been the focus, and not the
                ethnocentric-back-yard-only-lets-play-camelot recreation group...they
                gave themselves enough rope, as it were...forgive us if we took it and
                said..."but what about..."

                This far into SCA history, the definitions should be re-written,
                perhaps...IMHO. It would get rid of many arguments...If the charter
                forbids "religious argument" then it might be wise to forbid
                "continental, racial, and linguistic" argument, and just allowed the
                people who wanted to play...to play...as long as they played "together..."

                Since then, the non Gaijin have been playing catch-up...and for the
                most part, although "accepted" do not seem to be of equal class...
                This game can be fun for the people who want to play...and for those
                who want to play,...even if it is in different clothes...we will still
                have to struggle...


                This is a stand alone rant...that I have been having for more than
                twenty years...
                It seems to fit in with the current thread...but forgive me for
                blowing the dust off of it if you do not think so...

                Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie...






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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ron Martino
                ... I don t know if you had another peerage before your Laurel, but it s been my experience as a peer for a few years that what everyone knows , or what the
                Message 7 of 12 , May 21, 2002
                  > Hey...you get no argument from me. I've been doing this for almost as long as you have, and have been fighting the same battles. I still regard getting my Laurel partially for "research and teaching Japanese culture" as "interesting"...especially as I had been told so many times for many years that I would never get a Laurel because I did "Japanese"!! In saying this, please understand...I was very highly honored to receive this recognition, and treasure it and the experience of my elevation. I also do not intend these statements to be critical of my fellow Laurels...it just illustrates how thinking has finally begun to turn around.
                  >
                  > Kiri

                  I don't know if you had another peerage before your Laurel, but it's
                  been my experience as a peer for a few years that 'what everyone knows',
                  or what the busybodies tell you isn't always really the case. Being
                  superficially familiar with Atlantia, I would not be surprised if there
                  were a bias against Japanese personas in some sectors, but I've also
                  seen Atlantian Crowns recognize other Laurels for what are 'fringe'
                  studies.

                  In any case, you're there now and can show the way to newer Nihonjin.

                  Yumitori
                  --

                  yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
                • Elaine Koogler
                  Yes, I have had a Pelican for a number of years...about 15, I think...and yes, I know what you say is true. But when I was being told this, repeatedly, the
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 21, 2002
                    Yes, I have had a Pelican for a number of years...about 15, I think...and yes, I know what you say is true. But when I was being told this, repeatedly, the folks who were seriously opposed to Japanese personas were in the majority in the Order. I'm very glad to say that this has now changed, and there are other Japanese personas in Atlantia!

                    I was just using some ancient history to show how things can, and do, change!

                    Kiri
                    ----- Original Message -----

                    I don't know if you had another peerage before your Laurel, but it's
                    been my experience as a peer for a few years that 'what everyone knows',
                    or what the busybodies tell you isn't always really the case. Being
                    superficially familiar with Atlantia, I would not be surprised if there
                    were a bias against Japanese personas in some sectors, but I've also
                    seen Atlantian Crowns recognize other Laurels for what are 'fringe'
                    studies.

                    In any case, you're there now and can show the way to newer Nihonjin.

                    Yumitori



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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