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Re: [SCA-JML] Heike Monogatari

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Well, it *is* the *Heike* Monogatari. Actually, the Heike bigshots get rather nasty points, too. Look at poor Kiyomori s death... You do make an
    Message 1 of 12 , May 7, 2002
      Ii Saburou wrote:

      > I'm reading through the Tale of Heike and I am struck by what seems to be
      > at times an incomprehensible bias in the book. That is to say it has an
      > obvious bias, but at the same time tends to honor enemies and seemingly
      > denigrate the heroes in some of the stories. This is a large contrast to
      > pieces of Western tradition that seem to demonize their enemies
      > mercilessly.
      >

      Well, it *is* the *Heike* Monogatari. <G>

      Actually, the Heike bigshots get rather nasty points, too. Look at poor
      Kiyomori's death...

      You do make an interesting point, though. Hm.

      >
      > Is this a common theme to the gunkimono* of Kamakura and later periods?

      Not that I've observed, but the Japanese do have a different idea of what
      constituted heroism. You have Takezaki Suenaga lying his butt off on his
      right to go and forcing his way on boats going out to attack the Mongol ships
      and *boasting* of that, stating that lying and bullying and being an arsehole
      is okay as long as it gets you glory. *This* is the honor of the samurai of
      the 14th century, not honest and stoic. That's the Tokugawa ideal. Remember
      the guy in Heike who claimed to be drowning while fording a river, so a
      comerade helped him across and at the other side of the river he suddenly
      jumps up and runs about shouting how *he* was the first to cross the river?

      > It also seems to go back to a point a friend of mine made--"The Japanese
      > are concerned with 'scenes' where as Americans [and others of European
      > descent] tend to be more concerned with the entire panorama." This would
      > certainly explain why the Japanese don't seem to see the problem with
      > bright yellow power lines running across the view of an ancient castle--to
      > them, the castle is important, and the yellow power lines are not part of
      > that 'scene', even though they are visible.
      >

      Good observation. The powerlines annoy the bejeebers out of *me*.


      Effingham
    • ronbroberg
      Onegaishimasu ... I have been looking for English translations of the Heike Monogatari (or any classical japanese literature) but have not been able to find
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 10 8:41 AM
        Onegaishimasu ...

        I have been looking for English translations of the Heike Monogatari
        (or any classical japanese literature) but have not been able to find
        one. Are there no public domain translations? Does anyone have good
        translations links that would care to share?

        Arigato
        Otagiri Tatsuzou
      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
        ... find ... http://www.meijigakuin.ac.jp/~watson/heike/heike.html lists several English language translations of Heike. (Great - MORE stuff to add to the
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 10 11:29 AM
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "ronbroberg" <ronbroberg@y...> wrote:
          > Onegaishimasu ...
          >
          > I have been looking for English translations of the Heike Monogatari
          > (or any classical japanese literature) but have not been able to
          find
          > one. Are there no public domain translations? Does anyone have good
          > translations links that would care to share?


          http://www.meijigakuin.ac.jp/~watson/heike/heike.html lists several
          English language translations of "Heike." (Great - MORE stuff to add
          to the reading list!)

          Makiwara
        • ronbroberg
          Gomen... I failed to make myself clear. Those links describe English translations available in print. I am looking for actual translations readable on the web.
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 10 1:04 PM
            Gomen...

            I failed to make myself clear. Those links describe English
            translations available in print. I am looking for actual translations
            readable on the web. I did find some fragments at
            http://www.glopac.org/Jparc/Atsumori/Heiketxt.htm

            --otagiri

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "makiwara_no_yetsuko"
            <makiwara_no_yetsuko@y...> wrote:
            ...
            > http://www.meijigakuin.ac.jp/~watson/heike/heike.html lists several
            > English language translations of "Heike." (Great - MORE stuff to
            add
            > to the reading list!)
            >
            > Makiwara
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... You won t. There are no translations that are copyright-free at present. Effingham
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 10 1:10 PM
              ronbroberg wrote:

              > Gomen...
              >
              > I failed to make myself clear. Those links describe English
              > translations available in print. I am looking for actual translations
              > readable on the web.

              You won't. There are no translations that are copyright-free at present.



              Effingham
            • Ii Saburou
              I m not sure that there are any public domain translations: translations are copyright to the translator, and I don t think that I ve seen any where the
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 10 4:55 PM
                I'm not sure that there are any public domain translations: translations
                are copyright to the translator, and I don't think that I've seen any
                where the copyright has expired. I have a copy by McCullough, which
                seemed a decent read--you can probably get it at amazon.com or some
                similar book shop.

                -Ii

                On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, ronbroberg wrote:

                > Onegaishimasu ...
                >
                > I have been looking for English translations of the Heike Monogatari
                > (or any classical japanese literature) but have not been able to find
                > one. Are there no public domain translations? Does anyone have good
                > translations links that would care to share?
                >
                > Arigato
                > Otagiri Tatsuzou
                >
                >
                >
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
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                >
                >
                >
              • James Eckman
                From: ronbroberg ... http://www.tuttlepublishing.com/browse.cgi?category=2 http://www.tuttlepublishing.com/title.cgi?title_id=2583
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 11 7:55 AM
                  From: "ronbroberg" <ronbroberg@...>

                  >Subject: Heike Monogatari
                  >
                  >Onegaishimasu ...
                  >
                  >I have been looking for English translations of the Heike Monogatari
                  >(or any classical japanese literature) but have not been able to find
                  >one. Are there no public domain translations? Does anyone have good
                  >translations links that would care to share?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  http://www.tuttlepublishing.com/browse.cgi?category=2
                  http://www.tuttlepublishing.com/title.cgi?title_id=2583

                  Also look for it on some of the used book sites since Tuttle published a
                  version earlier as well. Probably cost you $1-2 not including shipping.
                  A newer version may set you back $15.

                  >Gomen...
                  >
                  >I failed to make myself clear. Those links describe English
                  >translations available in print. I am looking for actual translations
                  >readable on the web. I did find some fragments at
                  >http://www.glopac.org/Jparc/Atsumori/Heiketxt.htm
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  Very well, probably only fragments available but check here:
                  http://www.meijigakuin.ac.jp/~watson/heike/heike.html

                  If you don't want to spend money, get thee to a library.

                  >From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                  >
                  >
                  >You won't. There are no translations that are copyright-free at present.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  Even if there are, would you want to use a Victorian translation for any
                  serious study? I enjoy Whaley but he takes liberties.

                  Jim Eckman
                • ronbroberg
                  ... Ah. Another reason this country bushii should lay down his sword and take up the brush long enough to learn his 3R s. There seem to be plenty of nihongo
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 11 8:38 AM
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
                    > I'm not sure that there are any public domain translations: translations
                    > are copyright to the translator, and I don't think that I've seen any

                    Ah.

                    Another reason this country bushii should lay down his sword and take
                    up the brush long enough to learn his 3R's. There seem to be plenty of
                    nihongo texts available.

                    Thanks
                    --otagiri
                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... Yup. Probably due to several things: 1) The original text is in public domain 2) Japanese translators have been doing it a lot longer, so there are
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 11 3:05 PM
                      On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, ronbroberg wrote:

                      > Ah.
                      >
                      > Another reason this country bushii should lay down his sword and take
                      > up the brush long enough to learn his 3R's. There seem to be plenty of
                      > nihongo texts available.

                      Yup. Probably due to several things:
                      1) The original text is in public domain
                      2) Japanese translators have been doing it a lot longer, so there
                      are probably modern Japanese translations that are in public domain
                      3) Different copyright laws.

                      -Ii
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... You are unlikely to really want a public domain transaltion as it would be pretty old. Why not either buy or borrow:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 11 7:01 PM
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >I have been looking for English translations of the Heike Monogatari
                        >(or any classical japanese literature) but have not been able to find
                        >one. Are there no public domain translations? Does anyone have good
                        >translations links that would care to share?

                        You are unlikely to really want a public domain transaltion as it would
                        be pretty old. Why not either buy or borrow: The Tale of the Heike
                        translated by Helen Craig McCullough ISBN 0-8047-1803-2. She is one of
                        the big names in Japanese literary studies in North America.

                        According to Fishman, The Public Domain. Sadler, Arthur. "The Heike
                        Monogatari."
                        Transactions of the Asiatic Society of Japan 46.2 (1918): 1-278; 49.1 (1921):
                        1-354. [Complete translation of the rufubon, the version of Edo printed texts.]
                        is in the public domain. A copy of this work should be in the collection of
                        Cornell University.

                        As for web-readable stuff. The big projects are putting Japanese originals
                        on the web. The Japanese studies community is much less interested in putting
                        translations on the web. Why do you want a web version?

                        NOTE. The Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act does not apply to this work.
                        This infamous act was intended to keep all of the early Disney animated
                        films under copyright. Mr. Disney is long dead and will make no more
                        films. This dastardly act is simply a money grab by Mr. Eisner and Co.
                        As long as Hollywood has political clout, I doubt that any U.S. copyright
                        will ever again expire.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

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                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                      • ronbroberg
                        ... originals ... in putting ... The web version is so that I could search for relevant topics to copy without actually reading the source material. I am
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 11 8:26 PM
                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                          > Noble Cousin!
                          >

                          >
                          > As for web-readable stuff. The big projects are putting Japanese
                          originals
                          > on the web. The Japanese studies community is much less interested
                          in putting
                          > translations on the web. Why do you want a web version?
                          >

                          The web version is so that I could search for relevant topics to copy
                          without actually reading the source material. I am building a website
                          in which I desire to quote period literature relevant to specific,
                          narrow topics. Such as a description of the shooting of the ship board
                          Taira fan by a shore side Minamoto. I asked about the Heike simply
                          because it was the most likely to be available but am interested in
                          other period monogatari as well.

                          However, this particular short cut now seems short sighted and I look
                          forward to getting hard copy (I think some call it a 'book') to read.

                          --otagiri
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