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Message Failures re cookbook to Ii-dono

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  • Elaine Koogler
    I apologize for bothering all of you with this, but I ve been trying to send information to Ii-dono, and the messages keep getting bounced. Ii-dono, if you
    Message 1 of 12 , May 3, 2002
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      I apologize for bothering all of you with this, but I've been trying to send information to Ii-dono, and the messages keep getting bounced.

      Ii-dono, if you would, please contact me with your correct address?

      Thanks!

      Kiri

      PS: In the meantime, I'm putting two files up in the Yahoo files...one is a Word document with pages 9 - 17 of the Ryori Monogotari, the other a zip file with Paint images of these same pages.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • michael A
      i have a quick question i was wondering if people could help me with. im mking a hikitate eboshi. i based the shape on the graphic effingham has on his site
      Message 2 of 12 , May 7, 2002
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        i have a quick question i was wondering if people
        could help me with. im mking a hikitate eboshi. i
        based the shape on the graphic effingham has on his
        site which has the hikitate, tate, and ori eboshi on
        it. the pattern i created is proportonal and appears
        to be the correct shape, but the resulting cap seems a
        bit tall. from the top of the swept back point to the
        bottom of the cap measures around 17 inches. after
        looking through my japanses library, ive seen a few
        that seem around this tall but most seem shorter. does
        this seem excessively tall???
        in case it is helpful the patterns 13" each for each
        half at thetie for a head circumfrance of 26"
        --kiyohara

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      • michael A
        while jingasa are not exactly a difficult or hard design :) i might have a source that can make me a limited number for free, and since the price is right.:)
        Message 3 of 12 , May 7, 2002
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          while jingasa are not exactly a difficult or hard
          design :)
          i might have a source that can make me a limited
          number for free, and since the price is right.:)

          what im wondering if people can help me with is...
          1. for the normal wear ones... does anyone know what
          thickness the metal should be in order to be
          historically accurate.im sure this isnt an exact
          standard but a rough idea would help. also it seems
          the angle of the cone varies to a degree but does any
          one have a rough idea of the degrees of pie shape
          removed from the circle, or the approximate pitch of
          the finished cone. my best guess is between
          45degrees and67.5 degrees of the circle removed and im
          leaning toward the latter figure. any suggestions??

          2. for combat.... has anyone fought heavy with one?
          and if so what guage steel did you use? i know its a
          little strange but it will complement the tatami do im
          working on well. i think i can disgusie the back of
          the helm made to sca standards fairly well with
          something to simulate any number of things dangled of
          the back,(tatami do style plates , or cloth,etc) but
          im curious how the edges of the main cone will take
          the abuse. i was thinking that if necessary i could
          roll the edge. any one have input/ suggestions/
          experiences/ recomended thicknesses with and without
          rolling. im figuring 16 will definately need a roll
          while 14 might take the abuse.
          --kiyohara

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        • rujoking99
          ... I have seen a few English personae fight with helms with wide brims, like a sun hat, only SCA legalized. These helmets were period for the latter Hundred
          Message 4 of 12 , May 8, 2002
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            > 2. for combat.... has anyone fought heavy with one?
            > and if so what guage steel did you use? i know its a
            > little strange but it will complement the tatami do im
            > working on well.

            I have seen a few English personae fight with helms with wide
            brims, like a sun hat, only SCA legalized. These helmets were
            period for the latter Hundred Years' War, because they could be
            cheaply made and kept some of the rain off. However, their chief
            disadvantage is that when the brim gets struck, the whole helm
            see-saws on your head. With no straps, the way the helmets
            were designed to be worn, the see-sawing just causes the helm
            to flip off. But with SCA strapping techniques, your neck would
            take much too much punishment from holding your head up
            straight.

            > any one have input/ suggestions/
            > experiences/ recomended thicknesses with and without
            > rolling. im figuring 16 will definately need a roll
            > while 14 might take the abuse.

            I would be worried with 16-gauge on my head. I don't think I
            would trust my noggin to 14 gauge either, and personally, I'd
            prefer 12-gauge, but I'm a little paranoid that way. One of the
            Black Diamond Baronial Relics (tm) is the Helm of Ishmael, and
            appears to be thicker than 10 gauge. But the helm can't be worn
            safely by any normal human, so the weight isn't much of an
            issue.

            *Now imagine all that said by a short, smiling dude in phat
            pants. Poof! Videoconferencing!*
          • Sojobo@ninjahome.zzn.com
            save your self some time and make your Jingasa out of leacher then you can find a way to put it on top of any SCA helm. understand good go play Get your Free
            Message 5 of 12 , May 8, 2002
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              save your self some time and make your Jingasa out of leacher then
              you can find a way to put it on top of any SCA helm.







              understand good go play

              Get your Free E-mail at http://ninjahome.zzn.com
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            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Actually, kettlehats go back to the 13th century.... Standard cheap infantry wear in some places. ... I think most of them *had* some kind of strapping.
              Message 6 of 12 , May 8, 2002
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                rujoking99 wrote:

                > > 2. for combat.... has anyone fought heavy with one?
                > > and if so what guage steel did you use? i know its a
                > > little strange but it will complement the tatami do im
                > > working on well.
                >
                > I have seen a few English personae fight with helms with wide
                > brims, like a sun hat, only SCA legalized. These helmets were
                > period for the latter Hundred Years' War, because they could be
                > cheaply made and kept some of the rain off.

                Actually, kettlehats go back to the 13th century.... Standard cheap infantry
                wear in some places.

                > However, their chief
                > disadvantage is that when the brim gets struck, the whole helm
                > see-saws on your head. With no straps, the way the helmets
                > were designed to be worn, the see-sawing just causes the helm
                > to flip off.

                I think most of them *had* some kind of strapping.

                > But with SCA strapping techniques, your neck would
                > take much too much punishment from holding your head up
                > straight.
                >

                Can you say "whiplash"? <G>

                >
                > > any one have input/ suggestions/
                > > experiences/ recomended thicknesses with and without
                > > rolling. im figuring 16 will definately need a roll
                > > while 14 might take the abuse.
                >
                > I would be worried with 16-gauge on my head. I don't think I
                > would trust my noggin to 14 gauge either, and personally, I'd
                > prefer 12-gauge, but I'm a little paranoid that way. One of the
                > Black Diamond Baronial Relics (tm) is the Helm of Ishmael, and
                > appears to be thicker than 10 gauge. But the helm can't be worn
                > safely by any normal human, so the weight isn't much of an
                > issue.
                >

                I don't know about the way people fight out where you are, but 14 is
                perfectly fine for me. Heck, if there's no dishing involved, if the plate is
                just curved, even 16 is fine, but it'll get dented. Of course, it'll dent
                well before *you* suffer any ill effects. The problem with 16 gg. is
                cosmetic, not safety.


                Effingham
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... if you want to be *really* authentic, use rawhide or paper (!) and lacquer it till it s almost a quarter inch thick. Metal armour tended to be between
                Message 7 of 12 , May 8, 2002
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                  michael A wrote:

                  >
                  > what im wondering if people can help me with is...
                  > 1. for the normal wear ones... does anyone know what
                  > thickness the metal should be in order to be
                  > historically accurate.im sure this isnt an exact
                  > standard but a rough idea would help. also it seems
                  > the angle of the cone varies to a degree

                  if you want to be *really* authentic, use rawhide or paper (!) and lacquer
                  it till it's almost a quarter inch thick. <G>

                  Metal armour tended to be between 22 and 18 gg, depending on the part of the
                  armour, and the helm was no different. There is, of course, about an eighth
                  of an inch or more of lacquer built up on this.

                  > but does any
                  > one have a rough idea of the degrees of pie shape
                  > removed from the circle, or the approximate pitch of
                  > the finished cone. my best guess is between
                  > 45degrees and67.5 degrees of the circle removed and im
                  > leaning toward the latter figure. any suggestions??
                  >

                  There is no rule. What's a kabuto look like? There are hundreds of types.
                  There are jingasa made of a solid sheet raised out, jingasa made of
                  triangular plates (think kabuto bowl), there are jingasa made of rolled
                  cones, what have you. There's no set depth, no set slope, no set width.

                  >
                  > 2. for combat.... has anyone fought heavy with one?
                  > and if so what guage steel did you use? i know its a
                  > little strange but it will complement the tatami do im
                  > working on well.

                  Agreed. You'd have to have a metal skirt on it, of course. I've seen
                  particularly steep jingasa that would greatly eliminate the whiplash effect,
                  but to be workable there was a cut out -- or rather, cut-out and a curl-up
                  -- of the front center so the person wearing it could see, almost making it
                  look like the thing had a pompadour visor in front.

                  > i think i can disgusie the back of
                  > the helm made to sca standards fairly well with
                  > something to simulate any number of things dangled of
                  > the back,(tatami do style plates , or cloth,etc) but
                  > im curious how the edges of the main cone will take
                  > the abuse. i was thinking that if necessary i could
                  > roll the edge. any one have input/ suggestions/
                  > experiences/ recomended thicknesses with and without
                  > rolling. im figuring 16 will definately need a roll
                  > while 14 might take the abuse.

                  You would definitely either have to roll the edge or weld a ring in place.
                  Talk to the people on the armour archive forum
                  (http://www.armourarchive.org). There's a discussion going on now about
                  kettle helms, and this is a very related subject.

                  Effingham
                • rujoking99@mac.com
                  I live over in Atlantia, and we /always/ get sorely chided about heavy hitting and rhino-hiding. ( Where did you hide the rhino, Prince Cuan? I can t seem to
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 9, 2002
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                    I live over in Atlantia, and we /always/ get sorely chided about heavy
                    hitting and rhino-hiding. ("Where did you hide the rhino, Prince Cuan?
                    I can't seem to find it!") And as far as 16 versus 14 versus 12, I've
                    always been afraid (to the point of paranoia) of banging my big noggin
                    on something. So yeah, 16 and 14 are just fine for non-phobic people,
                    but I'm weird that way. Of course, if I don't like getting hit on the
                    head, what the heck am I doing on the lists?! <G>

                    And thanks for the translation of "flute." "Just plain flute" is
                    probably closer than "Noh flute" to what I wanted, since I play pretty
                    much everything that's put in front of me. Anyone know a good place to
                    get a relatively inexpensive but still serviceable shakuhachi?

                    Kinoshita Yoshimori: A question with every reply!
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... Well, in Japanese usage. If you want to translate fue into English, you may *well* be safest calling it Japanese flute because a fue is certainly *not*
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 9, 2002
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                      rujoking99@... wrote:

                      > I live over in Atlantia, and we /always/ get sorely chided about heavy
                      > hitting and rhino-hiding. ("Where did you hide the rhino, Prince Cuan?
                      > I can't seem to find it!") And as far as 16 versus 14 versus 12, I've
                      > always been afraid (to the point of paranoia) of banging my big noggin
                      > on something. So yeah, 16 and 14 are just fine for non-phobic people,
                      > but I'm weird that way. Of course, if I don't like getting hit on the
                      > head, what the heck am I doing on the lists?! <G>
                      >
                      > And thanks for the translation of "flute."

                      Well, in Japanese usage. If you want to translate fue into English, you may
                      *well* be safest calling it "Japanese flute" because a fue is certainly
                      *not* the typical western flute. At least, not the modern one. It's almost
                      more like a fife. That's why I generally shy away from translating
                      specifically the names of Japanese things that don't have direct analogues
                      in English.

                      > "Just plain flute" is
                      > probably closer than "Noh flute" to what I wanted, since I play pretty
                      > much everything that's put in front of me. Anyone know a good place to
                      > get a relatively inexpensive but still serviceable shakuhachi?

                      Be prepared to shell out bux. A lathe-turned hardwood practice shakuhachi
                      will cost you around $100. Real bamboo models cost more, usually. Do a
                      search on e-bay from time to time and see what comes up. Lark in the Morning
                      (http://www.larkinam.com) stocks at least the practice ones, IIRC.

                      Effingham
                    • Ii Saburou
                      ... I completely agree. It is very annoying to go through a translation and see robe , lute , trousers and try to pin them down to particular things.
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 9, 2002
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                        On Thu, 9 May 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                        > Well, in Japanese usage. If you want to translate fue into English, you may
                        > *well* be safest calling it "Japanese flute" because a fue is certainly
                        > *not* the typical western flute. At least, not the modern one. It's almost
                        > more like a fife. That's why I generally shy away from translating
                        > specifically the names of Japanese things that don't have direct analogues
                        > in English.

                        I completely agree.

                        <rant>It is very annoying to go through a translation and see 'robe',
                        'lute', 'trousers' and try to pin them down to particular things. Usually
                        you can tell by context, but sometimes not. Is the soup a SHIRU or a
                        SUIMONO?

                        On the other hand, however, what do you do when translating? Is it better
                        to translate to familiar terms so that people get a general idea, or to
                        leave the original and let people find out what it is? Interestingly
                        enough, we seem to use plenty of European terms in the original languages
                        (look at the many French terms for pieces of armour) but we don't like to
                        do that these days, it seems.

                        Partly I think it has to do with a shift in what authors expect of their
                        readers. Reading older works it seems that French, German--even Chinese
                        and Arabic--were often quoted directly without translation, expecting the
                        user to discern its meaning. With French and German, I think that it was
                        almost expected that a learned person would pick them up, or at least
                        wouldn't have a hard time deciphering them.

                        I don't think I see that in modern works nearly as much. On the one hand,
                        it makes it easier to read, but on the other you often lose something in
                        the translations.</rant>

                        So, what do people out there prefer? Where does one draw the line between
                        translating and using the original word?

                        -Ii
                      • Park McKellop
                        I prefer ...translation (transliteration/description)...   or at least a footnote on the same page, not at the back of the book. Alcyoneus/Kondei
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 9, 2002
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                          <P> I prefer "...translation
                          (transliteration/description)..."  or at least a
                          footnote on the same page, not at the back of the
                          book.
                          <P>Alcyoneus/Kondei Ichimusai Niten
                          <P>  <B><I>Ii Saburou
                          <logan@...></I></B> wrote:
                          <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
                          5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><TT>So, what do
                          people out there prefer?  Where does one draw the
                          line between <BR>translating and using the original word?<BR><BR>-Ii<BR></TT></BLOCKQUOTE>

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                        • Elaine Koogler
                          I like the idea of using the original word, then providing a sort of glossary to relate the words to modern English. That s the way a lot of the early period
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 10, 2002
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                            I like the idea of using the original word, then providing a sort of glossary to relate the words to modern English. That's the way a lot of the early period cookery books are done. The original recipes are given, then there is a glossary that defines the more unfamiliar terms.

                            Kiri
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Ii Saburou
                            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 11:27 PM
                            Subject: Translations (was Re: [SCA-JML] Re: jingasa)


                            On Thu, 9 May 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                            > Well, in Japanese usage. If you want to translate fue into English, you may
                            > *well* be safest calling it "Japanese flute" because a fue is certainly
                            > *not* the typical western flute. At least, not the modern one. It's almost
                            > more like a fife. That's why I generally shy away from translating
                            > specifically the names of Japanese things that don't have direct analogues
                            > in English.

                            I completely agree.

                            <rant>It is very annoying to go through a translation and see 'robe',
                            'lute', 'trousers' and try to pin them down to particular things. Usually
                            you can tell by context, but sometimes not. Is the soup a SHIRU or a
                            SUIMONO?

                            On the other hand, however, what do you do when translating? Is it better
                            to translate to familiar terms so that people get a general idea, or to
                            leave the original and let people find out what it is? Interestingly
                            enough, we seem to use plenty of European terms in the original languages
                            (look at the many French terms for pieces of armour) but we don't like to
                            do that these days, it seems.

                            Partly I think it has to do with a shift in what authors expect of their
                            readers. Reading older works it seems that French, German--even Chinese
                            and Arabic--were often quoted directly without translation, expecting the
                            user to discern its meaning. With French and German, I think that it was
                            almost expected that a learned person would pick them up, or at least
                            wouldn't have a hard time deciphering them.

                            I don't think I see that in modern works nearly as much. On the one hand,
                            it makes it easier to read, but on the other you often lose something in
                            the translations.</rant>

                            So, what do people out there prefer? Where does one draw the line between
                            translating and using the original word?

                            -Ii


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