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Japanese cookbook manuscript

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  • Elaine Koogler
    All, I just got word back from the lady who has a copy of the manuscript, and she will be mailing it to me later this week. I don t know how long it is, so am
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 23 7:04 AM
      All,
      I just got word back from the lady who has a copy of the manuscript, and she will be mailing it to me later this week. I don't know how long it is, so am not sure if I can web it, but I could be persuaded to send a hard copy to anyone who would like to take a crack at the translation. All this lady wants is a copy of it, when completed.

      The name is the manuscript is Ryori Monogatari 1643, and, though it is a little out of period, it is still the closest thing to a period cook book I've encountered.

      Thanks for all of your support in this project!

      Kiri


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ii Saburou
      ... You know, a distributed computing model might work in this situation. If multiple people are willing and able to translate, send it out in sections to be
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 23 2:57 PM
        On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Elaine Koogler wrote:

        > All,
        > I just got word back from the lady who has a copy of the manuscript, and she will be mailing it to me later this week. I don't know how long it is, so am not sure if I can web it, but I could be persuaded to send a hard copy to anyone who would like to take a crack at the translation. All this lady wants is a copy of it, when completed.
        >
        > The name is the manuscript is Ryori Monogatari 1643, and, though it is a little out of period, it is still the closest thing to a period cook book I've encountered.
        >
        > Thanks for all of your support in this project!
        >
        You know, a distributed computing model might work in this situation.

        If multiple people are willing and able to translate, send it out in
        sections to be translated. When one section is done, the translation is
        sent back. A senior editor (who doesn't need to be able to read Japanese)
        goes over all the parts and collates them into a somewhat consistent and
        readable whole.

        Also, if we webify it, we might want to talk to these guys:

        http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/japanese/jti.texts.html


        -Ii
      • rujoking99@mac.com
        You know, the moment I read Distributed Computing I thought of Seti@Home and the Cancer Research screen-savers. But more on-topic, I have a strong desire to
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 23 11:18 PM
          You know, the moment I read "Distributed Computing" I thought of
          Seti@Home and the Cancer Research screen-savers. But more on-topic, I
          have a strong desire to learn Japanese (beyond "Domo arigatou
          gozaimasu.") I may not know much about Japanese specifically but I do
          have a knack with languages, so perhaps this would be an opportunity for
          me to learn. I also have some experience with translating and
          transliterating medieval German and Latin texts, with all the confusing
          High Gothic lettering I can stand in one lifetime, so maybe that would
          help.

          So I guess what I'm saying is, when you get the pages, take some photos
          or scans (perhaps someone knows the best method for digitizing period
          illustrations?) and put them up online, at full resolution. Then send
          in the link, and get everyone to take a crack at translating. It could
          be a project for all the SCA-Japanese folk on the list, methinks.

          Kinoshita "Nihongo wa, wakarimasen," Yoshimori
        • Elaine Koogler
          Sounds like a plan. I ll have to figure out a way to get it onto the web...I d been planning to put up a web site of my own anyway, and this might be the
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 24 5:52 AM
            Sounds like a plan. I'll have to figure out a way to get it onto the web...I'd been planning to put up a web site of my own anyway, and this might be the thing to finally push me into doing it! Or, I guess I could maybe put it on the sca-jml yahoo site. but I would be willing to serve as the editor for it, if you all agree. I've done this sort of thing before, so I think i could handle it. And, if we work on this as a group, we could get it done faster...I have to admit that I can't wait to see what we get!

            Thanks for the idea, Ii-dono. What do the rest of you think? Master Edward?

            Kiri
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Ii Saburou
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:57 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Japanese cookbook manuscript


            On Tue, 23 Apr 2002, Elaine Koogler wrote:

            > All,
            > I just got word back from the lady who has a copy of the manuscript, and she will be mailing it to me later this week. I don't know how long it is, so am not sure if I can web it, but I could be persuaded to send a hard copy to anyone who would like to take a crack at the translation. All this lady wants is a copy of it, when completed.
            >
            > The name is the manuscript is Ryori Monogatari 1643, and, though it is a little out of period, it is still the closest thing to a period cook book I've encountered.
            >
            > Thanks for all of your support in this project!
            >
            You know, a distributed computing model might work in this situation.

            If multiple people are willing and able to translate, send it out in
            sections to be translated. When one section is done, the translation is
            sent back. A senior editor (who doesn't need to be able to read Japanese)
            goes over all the parts and collates them into a somewhat consistent and
            readable whole.

            Also, if we webify it, we might want to talk to these guys:

            http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/japanese/jti.texts.html


            -Ii


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ii Saburou
            ... If you want, I may be able to put it up at modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan if you can get it into an online format (be it scanned, typed, or whatever). -Ii
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 27 12:04 PM
              On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Elaine Koogler wrote:

              > Sounds like a plan. I'll have to figure out a way to get it onto the
              > web...I'd been planning to put up a web site of my own anyway, and this
              > might be the thing to finally push me into doing it! Or, I guess I
              > could maybe put it on the sca-jml yahoo site. but I would be willing to
              > serve as the editor for it, if you all agree. I've done this sort of
              > thing before, so I think i could handle it. And, if we work on this as
              > a group, we could get it done faster...I have to admit that I can't wait
              > to see what we get!

              If you want, I may be able to put it up at modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan if
              you can get it into an online format (be it scanned, typed, or whatever).

              -Ii
            • Elaine Koogler
              As soon as it arrives, I plan to begin scanning it into files. I suspect that, in order to get one file out of the thing, I ll have to create a single file
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 28 12:24 PM
                As soon as it arrives, I plan to begin scanning it into files. I suspect that, in order to get one file out of the thing, I'll have to create a single file from the single-page files that my scanner creates. Then, once that's done, I'll see what I can do about getting it onto the web. I appreciate your offer, but may try to do something on my own first. Comcast.net is supposed to have this capability...we'll see!

                Kiri
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ii Saburou
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 3:04 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Japanese cookbook manuscript


                On Wed, 24 Apr 2002, Elaine Koogler wrote:

                > Sounds like a plan. I'll have to figure out a way to get it onto the
                > web...I'd been planning to put up a web site of my own anyway, and this
                > might be the thing to finally push me into doing it! Or, I guess I
                > could maybe put it on the sca-jml yahoo site. but I would be willing to
                > serve as the editor for it, if you all agree. I've done this sort of
                > thing before, so I think i could handle it. And, if we work on this as
                > a group, we could get it done faster...I have to admit that I can't wait
                > to see what we get!

                If you want, I may be able to put it up at modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan if
                you can get it into an online format (be it scanned, typed, or whatever).

                -Ii


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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • dateyukiie
                Konnichi wa, tomodachi... I know I saw a pattern for the components of a period monk s kesa in a book, but unfortunately I do not have access to that volume.
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 29 5:50 AM
                  Konnichi wa, tomodachi...
                  I know I saw a pattern for the components of a period monk's kesa in a
                  book, but unfortunately I do not have access to that volume. Does
                  anyone have a sewing pattern, or drawings of the kesa laid out? Also,
                  does anyone know if there are regional variations of the kesa, or was
                  it essentially standardized...

                  I am also still interested in any and all refs to strapping
                  arangements of ebira, and full, soft-wrist five-finger
                  kyujutsu/yabusame kake...
                  Domo arigato...

                  Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                  ...shi wa hei to de aru...
                • Mokurai
                  Date-dono, There are some cultural differences in kesa design from country to country, but the more important differences are between sects. I would say that
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 29 6:35 AM
                    Date-dono,

                    There are some cultural differences in kesa design from country to country,
                    but the more important differences are between sects. I would say that if
                    you want a kesa that is very accurate, you should first determine of which
                    sect your persona is and look for images of priests of that sect. I myself
                    am not entirely clear on all of them - there are so many and "kesa fashion"
                    did change slightly from period to period - basically swings from decadence
                    to austerity. Also, what rank in the monastery - this would have a bearing
                    on the number of "jo" or vertical divisions in the pattern (kesa have a
                    quilt-like construction). I have a little more info and some pictures of
                    examples on my web page...http://www.geocities.com/mokuraibozu/

                    I might recommend that a rakusu might be easier for you to start with. This
                    is the sort of mini-kesa often worn by Zen monks during work, or if they
                    were of a low rank, or worn by samurai over their armor such as you see in
                    images of Takeda Shingen. As a matter of fact, this is what I wear. I have
                    yet to make my "dream kesa" which would be of silk, full size, and of a
                    reasonably high rank for court garb. Hope this helps a bit.

                    Gassho.

                    - mokurai


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: dateyukiie [mailto:kabuto@...]
                    Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 8:50 AM
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [SCA-JML] Kesa


                    Konnichi wa, tomodachi...
                    I know I saw a pattern for the components of a period monk's kesa in a
                    book, but unfortunately I do not have access to that volume. Does
                    anyone have a sewing pattern, or drawings of the kesa laid out? Also,
                    does anyone know if there are regional variations of the kesa, or was
                    it essentially standardized...

                    I am also still interested in any and all refs to strapping
                    arangements of ebira, and full, soft-wrist five-finger
                    kyujutsu/yabusame kake...
                    Domo arigato...

                    Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                    ...shi wa hei to de aru...



                    UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • dateyukiie
                    Morukai dono, Thank you very much for the info...What I was looking for was something of a lower rank status, to wear over armor, perhaps of the jodo-shinshu
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 29 1:07 PM
                      Morukai dono,
                      Thank you very much for the info...What I was looking for was
                      something of a lower rank status, to wear over armor, perhaps of the
                      jodo-shinshu sect. I file my taxes with the Shogunate as Branch-Head
                      of Clan, but am a junior member of the Yama Kaminari. I am buddhist,
                      but of the lay variety "aspiring" to higher ideals... (I hear it is a
                      "tax write-off")<grin>...at least that is what the Uesugi tell
                      me...<bigger grin>
                      I have some great thin black silk, and some wonderful orange...(I am
                      fond of the orange...) and I have a usable ivory ring...
                      Domo Arigato
                      Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                      ...shi wa hei to de aru...
                    • dateyukiie
                      Most honorable Mokurai Sensei... I offer the most humble of appologies...I may have refered to you as Morukai dono as opposed to Mokurai dono... This was
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 29 1:13 PM
                        Most honorable Mokurai Sensei...
                        I offer the most humble of appologies...I may have refered to you as
                        "Morukai dono" as opposed to "Mokurai dono..."
                        This was only a pathetic slip of my unskilled fingers, and is in no
                        way meant to be a slight on Sensei's honor...
                        Gomen nassai..
                        Humbly,
                        Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                        ...shi wa hei to de aru...
                      • Mokurai
                        ... From: dateyukiie [mailto:kabuto@cboss.com] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:08 PM To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Kesa Morukai dono, Thank
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 30 8:32 AM
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: dateyukiie [mailto:kabuto@...]
                          Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:08 PM
                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Kesa


                          Morukai dono,
                          Thank you very much for the info...What I was looking for was
                          something of a lower rank status, to wear over armor, perhaps of the
                          jodo-shinshu sect.

                          -I'd say a rakusu is the ticket then. The Jodo sect has pretty
                          standard-looking stuff as I recall.

                          I file my taxes with the Shogunate as Branch-Head
                          of Clan, but am a junior member of the Yama Kaminari. I am buddhist,
                          but of the lay variety "aspiring" to higher ideals... (I hear it is a
                          "tax write-off")<grin>...at least that is what the Uesugi tell
                          me...<bigger grin>

                          Heh. Sure.... but the Takeda are just as holy and they pay better. ^_^

                          I have some great thin black silk, and some wonderful orange...(I am
                          fond of the orange...) and I have a usable ivory ring...

                          Hmmm... I would avoid using the orange. Maybe you could rationalize it as
                          you are wealthy and ostentatious, but only a few sects I know of actually
                          used orange (Shingon being the main one. The black silk sounds really good
                          to me, except that you really want something with decent weight - organza is
                          not going to stand up to wear and tear being worn over armor in SCA combat.
                          Of course, you could sue some linen or duck for the backing. The ring sounds
                          promising. *sigh* unfortunately, I don't have an exact pattern for a rakusu
                          I can share with you, but you can find images of them here and there. Yo0u
                          can see them in film often also - like the one spy in Kagemusha.

                          If you need more help with construction, let me know.

                          - mokurai



                          Domo Arigato
                          Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                          ...shi wa hei to de aru...



                          UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                        • Mokurai
                          No offence was taken. If you want to be proper, you may address me as Mokuraibozu or Mokuraibo. But does it matter what you call an old bag of bones and dust?
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 30 8:35 AM
                            No offence was taken. If you want to be proper, you may address me as
                            Mokuraibozu or Mokuraibo. But does it matter what you call an old bag of
                            bones and dust?

                            - mokurai


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: dateyukiie [mailto:kabuto@...]
                            Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 4:13 PM
                            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Kesa


                            Most honorable Mokurai Sensei...
                            I offer the most humble of appologies...I may have refered to you as
                            "Morukai dono" as opposed to "Mokurai dono..."
                            This was only a pathetic slip of my unskilled fingers, and is in no
                            way meant to be a slight on Sensei's honor...
                            Gomen nassai..
                            Humbly,
                            Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                            ...shi wa hei to de aru...



                            UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                          • Carl Grasso
                            If your persona is a layman you would only be wearing the rakusu. and even then it wouldn t be a daily wear thing. usually it is only worn in connection to
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 30 11:11 AM
                              If your persona is a layman you would only be wearing the rakusu. and even then it wouldn't be a
                              daily wear thing. usually it is only worn in connection to ceremony or zazen. i don't think it
                              would have been worn over armor. at least today it would be frowned upon since it represents the
                              robe of the buddha and is to be treated with reverence and respect. if you go to
                              zenhomestitchery.com they sell a reasonably priced kit for a rakusu. traditionally they are hand
                              sewn with a mantra chanted with each stitch. i have yet to take jukai so i haven't sewn one of my
                              own (for mundane use). you might wear it at court, but not on the battlefield. from what i know
                              the yamabushi had a very peculiar headdress that they wore.
                              hope this helps.
                              -seiryu


                              > Morukai dono,
                              > Thank you very much for the info...What I was looking for was
                              > something of a lower rank status, to wear over armor, perhaps of the
                              > jodo-shinshu sect. I file my taxes with the Shogunate as Branch-Head
                              > of Clan, but am a junior member of the Yama Kaminari. I am buddhist,
                              > but of the lay variety "aspiring" to higher ideals... (I hear it is a
                              > "tax write-off")<grin>...at least that is what the Uesugi tell
                              > me...<bigger grin>
                              > I have some great thin black silk, and some wonderful orange...(I am
                              > fond of the orange...) and I have a usable ivory ring...
                              > Domo Arigato
                              > Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                              > ...shi wa hei to de aru...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________________________________________________
                              > ________________________________________________________________________
                              >
                              > Message: 4
                              > Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:13:23 -0000
                              > From: "dateyukiie" <kabuto@...>
                              > Subject: Re: Kesa
                              >
                              > Most honorable Mokurai Sensei...
                              > I offer the most humble of appologies...I may have refered to you as
                              > "Morukai dono" as opposed to "Mokurai dono..."
                              > This was only a pathetic slip of my unskilled fingers, and is in no
                              > way meant to be a slight on Sensei's honor...
                              > Gomen nassai..
                              > Humbly,
                              > Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                              > ...shi wa hei to de aru...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ________________________________________________________________________
                              > ________________________________________________________________________
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              =====
                              http://www.dharmacats.com

                              __________________________________________________
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                            • Mokurai
                              Thank you Seiryubozu. All quite correct except that some 16th century warlords did wear them over armor as a show of their piety (take that for what it s
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 30 11:35 AM
                                Thank you Seiryubozu. All quite correct except that some 16th century
                                warlords did wear them over armor as a show of their piety (take that for
                                what it's worth). An over-sized ju (mala - prayer beads) was also popular.
                                We have the portraits to prove it. All in all, I think it is safe to say
                                that what is considered correct or in good taste in this age may differ from
                                what was so considered in Period. I may have implied daily wear in my
                                initial post and if so, I am sorry as that is indeed incorrect. I do however
                                believe that it was not uncommon to wear the rakusu while on pilgrimage and
                                have seen painting to that effect. Thus, I think its use may have been less
                                restricted than it is now in modern lay practice. Bear in mind that Seiryu
                                and I are both talking about Zen here, I do not know if there would be
                                Sect-based differences to these practices.

                                On a related question, I am unfamiliar with whether or not low-ranking monks
                                wore only a rakusu during ceremonies or if they also had full-size kesa for
                                these times. I had thought the later to be the case and have seen non-period
                                images that imply it. Do you have any idea Seiryubozu?

                                Regarding court, I would not wear a rakusu to an SCA court unless your
                                persona is a full-time monk. And then, I would presume that a full kesa is
                                more appropriate.

                                Effingham should step in here about now, I expect.

                                - mokurai



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Carl Grasso [mailto:webmaster@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:11 PM
                                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Kesa


                                If your persona is a layman you would only be wearing the rakusu. and even
                                then it wouldn't be a
                                daily wear thing. usually it is only worn in connection to ceremony or
                                zazen. i don't think it
                                would have been worn over armor. at least today it would be frowned upon
                                since it represents the
                                robe of the buddha and is to be treated with reverence and respect. if you
                                go to
                                zenhomestitchery.com they sell a reasonably priced kit for a rakusu.
                                traditionally they are hand
                                sewn with a mantra chanted with each stitch. i have yet to take jukai so i
                                haven't sewn one of my
                                own (for mundane use). you might wear it at court, but not on the
                                battlefield. from what i know
                                the yamabushi had a very peculiar headdress that they wore.
                                hope this helps.
                                -seiryu


                                > Morukai dono,
                                > Thank you very much for the info...What I was looking for was
                                > something of a lower rank status, to wear over armor, perhaps of the
                                > jodo-shinshu sect. I file my taxes with the Shogunate as Branch-Head
                                > of Clan, but am a junior member of the Yama Kaminari. I am buddhist,
                                > but of the lay variety "aspiring" to higher ideals... (I hear it is a
                                > "tax write-off")<grin>...at least that is what the Uesugi tell
                                > me...<bigger grin>
                                > I have some great thin black silk, and some wonderful orange...(I am
                                > fond of the orange...) and I have a usable ivory ring...
                                > Domo Arigato
                                > Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                                > ...shi wa hei to de aru...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________________________________________________
                                > ________________________________________________________________________
                                >
                                > Message: 4
                                > Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:13:23 -0000
                                > From: "dateyukiie" <kabuto@...>
                                > Subject: Re: Kesa
                                >
                                > Most honorable Mokurai Sensei...
                                > I offer the most humble of appologies...I may have refered to you as
                                > "Morukai dono" as opposed to "Mokurai dono..."
                                > This was only a pathetic slip of my unskilled fingers, and is in no
                                > way meant to be a slight on Sensei's honor...
                                > Gomen nassai..
                                > Humbly,
                                > Yama Kaminari no Date Saburo Yukiie
                                > ...shi wa hei to de aru...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________________________________________________
                                > ________________________________________________________________________
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                =====
                                http://www.dharmacats.com

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                                Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
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                              • Ii Saburou
                                ... There does seem to have been a change at some point. I recall in the Heike Monogatari there is a person who was scolded for wearing armor under his
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 30 3:11 PM
                                  On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Mokurai wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Thank you Seiryubozu. All quite correct except that some 16th century
                                  > warlords did wear them over armor as a show of their piety (take that for
                                  > what it's worth). An over-sized ju (mala - prayer beads) was also popular.
                                  > We have the portraits to prove it. All in all, I think it is safe to say
                                  > that what is considered correct or in good taste in this age may differ from
                                  > what was so considered in Period.

                                  There does seem to have been a change at some point. I recall in the
                                  Heike Monogatari there is a person who was scolded for wearing armor under
                                  his religious garments; it seemed more like they were frowning on his lack
                                  of tact more than anything else. Later on, I've seen pictures of armor
                                  made to look like the wearer has a kesa on, although it may have been
                                  post-1600. My guess is that you see it grow as the buke come to power and
                                  can be more elaborate with their shows of 'piety' on the battlefield.

                                  -Ii
                                • Mokurai
                                  Worth noting that in the Hojo Soun picture, he is also wearing what seems to be a koromo - the priest s black robe. I have seen several portraits of sengoku
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 30 7:06 PM
                                    Worth noting that in the Hojo Soun picture, he is also wearing what seems to
                                    be a koromo - the priest's black robe. I have seen several portraits of
                                    sengoku daimyo in this sort of get-up. Often wearing fancy kosode and hakama
                                    under a koromo, but also often wearing full monk robes. Since most of these
                                    are post-death memorial portraits, I guess one could argue whether or not
                                    they would have regularly worn the full vestments daily. I suppose that
                                    would depend on how decadent they were. ^_~ Effingham?

                                    - mokurai



                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
                                    Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 10:30 PM
                                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Kesa


                                    Carl Grasso wrote:

                                    > If your persona is a layman you would only be wearing the rakusu. and even
                                    then it wouldn't be a
                                    > daily wear thing. usually it is only worn in connection to ceremony or
                                    zazen. i don't think it
                                    > would have been worn over armor. at least today it would be frowned upon
                                    since it represents the
                                    > robe of the buddha and is to be treated with reverence and respect. if you
                                    go to
                                    > zenhomestitchery.com they sell a reasonably priced kit for a rakusu.
                                    traditionally they are hand
                                    > sewn with a mantra chanted with each stitch. i have yet to take jukai so i
                                    haven't sewn one of my
                                    > own (for mundane use). you might wear it at court, but not on the
                                    battlefield. from what i know
                                    > the yamabushi had a very peculiar headdress that they wore.
                                    > hope this helps.

                                    Actually, in Sengoku days, one would wear the rakusu just about all the
                                    time, even with informal
                                    clothing. It's sort of part of the outfit of the lay-clergy (sounds like an
                                    oxymoron, but...). Check
                                    this portrait of Hojo Soun
                                    (http://isweb14.infoseek.co.jp/novel/rekiju/image/sengoku/soun.JPG),

                                    And, yes, it was worn into battle. The most famous examples are the numerous
                                    portraits of Takeda
                                    Shingen (e.g., several on
                                    http://utenti.lycos.it/eredi/Kendo2/furinkazan.html ), this portrait of
                                    Minamoto no Toratane
                                    (http://isweb14.infoseek.co.jp/novel/rekiju/image/sengoku/hara.JPG), and so
                                    on.

                                    As for "big jû" on armour, here's a famous portrait of Honda Tadakatsu:
                                    http://isweb14.infoseek.co.jp/novel/rekiju/image/sengoku/tadakatu.JPG

                                    Effingham






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                                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                                    ... Actually, in Sengoku days, one would wear the rakusu just about all the time, even with informal clothing. It s sort of part of the outfit of the
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 30 7:29 PM
                                      Carl Grasso wrote:

                                      > If your persona is a layman you would only be wearing the rakusu. and even then it wouldn't be a
                                      > daily wear thing. usually it is only worn in connection to ceremony or zazen. i don't think it
                                      > would have been worn over armor. at least today it would be frowned upon since it represents the
                                      > robe of the buddha and is to be treated with reverence and respect. if you go to
                                      > zenhomestitchery.com they sell a reasonably priced kit for a rakusu. traditionally they are hand
                                      > sewn with a mantra chanted with each stitch. i have yet to take jukai so i haven't sewn one of my
                                      > own (for mundane use). you might wear it at court, but not on the battlefield. from what i know
                                      > the yamabushi had a very peculiar headdress that they wore.
                                      > hope this helps.

                                      Actually, in Sengoku days, one would wear the rakusu just about all the time, even with informal
                                      clothing. It's sort of part of the outfit of the lay-clergy (sounds like an oxymoron, but...). Check
                                      this portrait of Hojo Soun (http://isweb14.infoseek.co.jp/novel/rekiju/image/sengoku/soun.JPG),

                                      And, yes, it was worn into battle. The most famous examples are the numerous portraits of Takeda
                                      Shingen (e.g., several on http://utenti.lycos.it/eredi/Kendo2/furinkazan.html ), this portrait of
                                      Minamoto no Toratane (http://isweb14.infoseek.co.jp/novel/rekiju/image/sengoku/hara.JPG), and so on.

                                      As for "big jû" on armour, here's a famous portrait of Honda Tadakatsu:
                                      http://isweb14.infoseek.co.jp/novel/rekiju/image/sengoku/tadakatu.JPG

                                      Effingham
                                    • Susan and Frank Downs
                                      Noble friends, I have the book which contains all that wonderful info. on kesa. It s called Japanese Costume (what else?) by Alan Kennedy. Regards, Maroe
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Apr 30 8:27 PM
                                        Noble friends,

                                        I have the book which contains all that wonderful info. on kesa. It's called
                                        Japanese Costume (what else?) by Alan Kennedy.

                                        Regards,
                                        Maroe
                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                        ... Good point. Unless we find some diaries saying I decided to wear XYZ today or Ed-no-suke was wearing XYZ it s going to be hard to be sure. We can go by
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 7, 2002
                                          Mokurai wrote:

                                          > Worth noting that in the Hojo Soun picture, he is also wearing what seems to
                                          > be a koromo - the priest's black robe. I have seen several portraits of
                                          > sengoku daimyo in this sort of get-up. Often wearing fancy kosode and hakama
                                          > under a koromo, but also often wearing full monk robes. Since most of these
                                          > are post-death memorial portraits, I guess one could argue whether or not
                                          > they would have regularly worn the full vestments daily. I suppose that
                                          > would depend on how decadent they were. ^_~ Effingham?

                                          Good point. Unless we find some diaries saying "I decided to wear XYZ today" or
                                          "Ed-no-suke was wearing XYZ" it's going to be hard to be sure. We can go by
                                          some portraiture, but the best sources seem to be screen paintings and the
                                          like, which purport to show actual slices of life rather than formal (or even
                                          the stylized imagery of) portraiture.

                                          Effingham
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