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Re: [SCA-JML] Jinbaori v. Dobuku

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  • Ii Saburou
    ... Sorry, for those who don t know jidai-geki is what the Japanese call period flicks (not neccessarily SCA period, mind you, but the samurai shows. Ran ,
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 11 11:22 AM
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      > The jinbaori and dobuku seem to be used a lot in the later jidai-geki*
      > movies showing samurai. In general, jinbaori seem to be worn over armor,
      > and dobuku as regular clothes, although I am not sure that this is always
      > the case.

      Sorry, for those who don't know 'jidai-geki' is what the Japanese call
      period flicks (not neccessarily SCA period, mind you, but the samurai
      shows. "Ran", "Kagemusha", "Aoi: Tokugawa Sandai", "Shichi-nin no
      Samurai", "Shogun's Ninja" would all be 'jidai-geki')

      -Ii
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... What do you see as the connection? I do see the popularity of it among samurai and merchants, but what s the tie to European fashion? Are you looking at
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 12 4:45 PM
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        Ii Saburou wrote:

        > The dobuku appears to have risen up from the merchant class, and I think a
        > good case can be made for it becoming popular partly because of the
        > European fashions of the time.

        What do you see as the connection? I do see the popularity of it among
        samurai and merchants, but what's the tie to European fashion? Are you
        looking at the doublet or cappa? If so... well, it's possible. I haven't made
        a serious study of the dobuku, but it could stand more close attention.

        > Regardless, it is obvious that European
        > clothing had an incluence on both the dobuku and the jinbaori, as
        > evidenced by several surviving pieces.
        >

        True, especially as to the materials with which they were sometimes made.

        >
        > I guess my big question is: where is the best documentation for these
        > pieces and their design?
        >

        Actually, scroll and screen paintings are the two top sources for this sort
        of thing.


        Effingham
      • Ii Saburou
        ... Well, for one there are several remarkably European-like jinbaori or dobuku that I have seen. Also, there was one book that I wish to study more closely,
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 12 6:00 PM
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          On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

          > > The dobuku appears to have risen up from the merchant class, and I think a
          > > good case can be made for it becoming popular partly because of the
          > > European fashions of the time.
          >
          > What do you see as the connection? I do see the popularity of it among
          > samurai and merchants, but what's the tie to European fashion? Are you
          > looking at the doublet or cappa? If so... well, it's possible. I haven't made
          > a serious study of the dobuku, but it could stand more close attention.

          Well, for one there are several remarkably European-like jinbaori or
          dobuku that I have seen. Also, there was one book that I wish to study
          more closely, but it was "Nanban fukushoku no kenky¯u : Seiy¯o ifuku no
          Nihon ifuku bunka ni ataeta eiky¯o" by Tanno Kaoru. It had, among other
          things, the dimensions of a very Western jinbaori that, if I was reading
          it right, had been passed down through the Nambu family since the 16th
          Century ("Armor and Costumes: Unique style of the 16th and 17th Century
          Warlords", p. 43, fig. #84 and "Nanban fukushoku..." fig 2).

          Both "Armor and Costumes" (pp 46, #94) and "Nanban fukushoku..." also had
          another jinbaori that was apparently made with wool that looks
          suspiciously like a European mantle.

          Furthermore you see Hosokawa Tadamaki's very western shitagi and Katou
          Kiyomasa's doublet (Shimaji Uwagi) and I can't help but think that if they
          were wearing the western clothes, or western styles, it would have been
          partial influence on what clothes they wore elsewhere, as well.

          The true test is to find some decent paintings and screens of the time
          leading up to and following the coming of Europeans to Japan and see
          whether or not the styles noticeably change towards the 'jacket' style of
          the Portugese doublet and mantle.

          > > Regardless, it is obvious that European
          > > clothing had an incluence on both the dobuku and the jinbaori, as
          > > evidenced by several surviving pieces.
          > >
          >
          > True, especially as to the materials with which they were sometimes made.
          >
          > >
          > > I guess my big question is: where is the best documentation for these
          > > pieces and their design?
          > >
          >
          > Actually, scroll and screen paintings are the two top sources for this sort
          > of thing.

          Well, the source quoted earlier ("Nanban...") had dimensions that seemed
          to be taken from extant pieces although may have just been reconstructed
          some other way. I was busy photocopying and taking notes on the design
          before the library closed on me, so I didn't get to read and translate
          what I needed to.

          -Ii, who is thinking of doing a class on dobuku and jinbaori at Pennsic.
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Oh, great. I can t put my hands on my copy. I know where it should be (I distinctly remember putting it there and saying sit! stay! ) but... sigh. ... Oh,
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 16 10:47 AM
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            Ii Saburou wrote:

            > Well, for one there are several remarkably European-like jinbaori or
            > dobuku that I have seen. Also, there was one book that I wish to study
            > more closely, but it was "Nanban fukushoku no kenky¯u : Seiy¯o ifuku no
            > Nihon ifuku bunka ni ataeta eiky¯o" by Tanno Kaoru. It had, among other
            > things, the dimensions of a very Western jinbaori that, if I was reading
            > it right, had been passed down through the Nambu family since the 16th
            > Century ("Armor and Costumes: Unique style of the 16th and 17th Century
            > Warlords", p. 43, fig. #84 and "Nanban fukushoku..." fig 2).
            >

            Oh, great. I can't put my hands on my copy. I know where it should be (I
            distinctly remember putting it there and saying "sit! stay!") but... sigh.

            >
            > Both "Armor and Costumes" (pp 46, #94) and "Nanban fukushoku..." also had
            > another jinbaori that was apparently made with wool that looks
            > suspiciously like a European mantle.
            >

            Oh, and don't forget (just for giggles) the one that was made out of a Persian
            carpet.

            >
            > Furthermore you see Hosokawa Tadamaki's very western shitagi and Katou
            > Kiyomasa's doublet (Shimaji Uwagi) and I can't help but think that if they
            > were wearing the western clothes, or western styles, it would have been
            > partial influence on what clothes they wore elsewhere, as well.
            >

            Ah, very interesting. Good point. I wouldn't be at all surprised, actually, if
            there had been some nanbannish influence.

            >
            > The true test is to find some decent paintings and screens of the time
            > leading up to and following the coming of Europeans to Japan and see
            > whether or not the styles noticeably change towards the 'jacket' style of
            > the Portugese doublet and mantle.
            >

            It is clear that people like Hideyoshi and his cronies loved to dress up in full
            nanban drag, as well. Those are probably the most commonly depicted examples, as
            they were such noteworthy oddities that they attracted attention. I've often
            wanted to do a sengoku Japanese guy caught up in nanban fever, but as I don't look
            Japanese the full effect would be lost. Poo.


            >
            > -Ii, who is thinking of doing a class on dobuku and jinbaori at Pennsic.

            This would be a *good* thing.


            Effingham
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