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Warrior question...

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  • Ii Saburou
    What was the purpose of the round, donut shaped object hanging by many Heian and early Kamakura warriors sides? It is white, attached with a red cord. It
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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      What was the purpose of the round, donut shaped object hanging by many
      Heian and early Kamakura warriors' sides? It is white, attached with a
      red cord. It appears to be stone, but it is hard to tell from paintings.
      My first guess would be that it might be a weight of some kind. Since it
      is hanging by the sword I was wondering if it might be there to protect
      the sword or the cords holding the sword on.

      Anybody know?

      -Ii
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... You caught me at a good time... I was logging in on a translating break. That s the reel for holding a spare bowstring, and is called, rather boringly,
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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        Ii Saburou wrote:

        > What was the purpose of the round, donut shaped object hanging by many
        > Heian and early Kamakura warriors' sides? It is white, attached with a
        > red cord. It appears to be stone, but it is hard to tell from paintings.
        > My first guess would be that it might be a weight of some kind. Since it
        > is hanging by the sword I was wondering if it might be there to protect
        > the sword or the cords holding the sword on.
        >
        > Anybody know?

        You caught me at a good time... I was logging in on a translating break.

        That's the reel for holding a spare bowstring, and is called, rather
        boringly, "tsurumaki".

        Effingham
      • Ii Saburou
        ... What are you translating, if I may be so bold...? ... Makes sense. Is it attached to the belt (is it an obi that you see around the armor, that the sword
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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          On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

          > You caught me at a good time... I was logging in on a translating break.

          What are you translating, if I may be so bold...?

          > That's the reel for holding a spare bowstring, and is called, rather
          > boringly, "tsurumaki".

          Makes sense. Is it attached to the belt (is it an obi that you see around
          the armor, that the sword is hung from/stuck through?)?

          -Ii
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... A book on Japanese history for a client in Tokyo. Starts with Nobunaga, goes through the Russo Japanese war. Very educational, but very trying. Several
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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            Ii Saburou wrote:

            > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
            >
            > > You caught me at a good time... I was logging in on a translating break.
            >
            > What are you translating, if I may be so bold...?
            >

            A book on Japanese history for a client in Tokyo. Starts with Nobunaga, goes
            through the Russo Japanese war. Very educational, but very trying. Several
            chapters on neo-Confucian philosophers that were... well, stressful. <G>

            >
            > > That's the reel for holding a spare bowstring, and is called, rather
            > > boringly, "tsurumaki".
            >
            > Makes sense. Is it attached to the belt (is it an obi that you see around
            > the armor, that the sword is hung from/stuck through?)?

            There are actually several sets of cords going around the body. One is the
            tachiobi (which holds the sword). One is the koshikawa, which is the waist
            cord for the ebira (quiver). (The tsurumaki actually hangs off this.) Another
            is the uwaobi, which kind of holds everything together. In older armours,
            this was a large, cord like thingie, while in the sengoku period it was a
            real cloth sash.

            Effingham
          • Ii Saburou
            ... So, do all three exist in the later armours as well? I ve just been using one, lately. I may have to change that. -Ii
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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              On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

              > > Makes sense. Is it attached to the belt (is it an obi that you see around
              > > the armor, that the sword is hung from/stuck through?)?
              >
              > There are actually several sets of cords going around the body. One is the
              > tachiobi (which holds the sword). One is the koshikawa, which is the waist
              > cord for the ebira (quiver). (The tsurumaki actually hangs off this.) Another
              > is the uwaobi, which kind of holds everything together. In older armours,
              > this was a large, cord like thingie, while in the sengoku period it was a
              > real cloth sash.

              So, do all three exist in the later armours as well? I've just been using
              one, lately. I may have to change that.

              -Ii
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Fraid so. Of course, you only need a tachi obi if you re wearing a tachi. The tachi comes with one, so it s all part of one thing. You only have a
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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                Ii Saburou wrote:

                > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                >
                > > > Makes sense. Is it attached to the belt (is it an obi that you see around
                > > > the armor, that the sword is hung from/stuck through?)?
                > >
                > > There are actually several sets of cords going around the body. One is the
                > > tachiobi (which holds the sword). One is the koshikawa, which is the waist
                > > cord for the ebira (quiver). (The tsurumaki actually hangs off this.) Another
                > > is the uwaobi, which kind of holds everything together. In older armours,
                > > this was a large, cord like thingie, while in the sengoku period it was a
                > > real cloth sash.
                >
                > So, do all three exist in the later armours as well? I've just been using
                > one, lately. I may have to change that.

                Fraid so. Of course, you only need a tachi obi if you're wearing a tachi. The
                tachi comes with one, so it's all part of one thing. You only have a koshikawa
                when you're wearing a quiver, obviously. The one you *do* need is the uwa obi,
                which can be a squire's belt or just a big muckin' sash.

                Effingham
              • Ii Saburou
                ... Okay, so I just need the uwa obi for the most part when fighting as I don t fight with a scabbard and quiver (although, if I could figure out how to do it
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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                  On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                  > Fraid so. Of course, you only need a tachi obi if you're wearing a tachi. The
                  > tachi comes with one, so it's all part of one thing. You only have a koshikawa
                  > when you're wearing a quiver, obviously. The one you *do* need is the uwa obi,
                  > which can be a squire's belt or just a big muckin' sash.

                  Okay, so I just need the uwa obi for the most part when fighting as I
                  don't fight with a scabbard and quiver (although, if I could figure out
                  how to do it it might be spiff. Was the katana just stuffed into the uwa
                  obi, then, or did it also have a tachi obi?

                  Also, was this obi anything more than a stiff version of the himo on
                  hakama? Something like an iai obi?

                  -Ii
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Just stuff it. Actually, you have a choice; just stuff the katana in, or make a sword carrier (those little leather things on belts that allow you to
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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                    Ii Saburou wrote:

                    > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                    >
                    > > Fraid so. Of course, you only need a tachi obi if you're wearing a tachi. The
                    > > tachi comes with one, so it's all part of one thing. You only have a koshikawa
                    > > when you're wearing a quiver, obviously. The one you *do* need is the uwa obi,
                    > > which can be a squire's belt or just a big muckin' sash.
                    >
                    > Okay, so I just need the uwa obi for the most part when fighting as I
                    > don't fight with a scabbard and quiver (although, if I could figure out
                    > how to do it it might be spiff. Was the katana just stuffed into the uwa
                    > obi, then, or did it also have a tachi obi?
                    >

                    Just stuff it. <G> Actually, you have a choice; just stuff the katana in, or make a
                    sword carrier (those little leather things on belts that allow you to hang a katana
                    like a tachi).

                    >
                    > Also, was this obi anything more than a stiff version of the himo on
                    > hakama? Something like an iai obi?

                    Not really, it was just about a foot of cloth (folded over a couple or three times)
                    by about ten or twelve feet in length. The folding and overlapping was sufficient
                    for strength.


                    Effingham
                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... Hemp linen or silk? (I just got 30 yards of hemp linen to start playing with...) -Ii
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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                      On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                      > > Also, was this obi anything more than a stiff version of the himo on
                      > > hakama? Something like an iai obi?
                      >
                      > Not really, it was just about a foot of cloth (folded over a couple or three times)
                      > by about ten or twelve feet in length. The folding and overlapping was sufficient
                      > for strength.

                      Hemp linen or silk? (I just got 30 yards of hemp linen to start playing
                      with...)

                      -Ii
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... The easy answer is yes. Whatever works. Silk, linen, hemp, ramie... Effingham
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 3, 2002
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                        Ii Saburou wrote:

                        > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                        >
                        > > > Also, was this obi anything more than a stiff version of the himo on
                        > > > hakama? Something like an iai obi?
                        > >
                        > > Not really, it was just about a foot of cloth (folded over a couple or three times)
                        > > by about ten or twelve feet in length. The folding and overlapping was sufficient
                        > > for strength.
                        >
                        > Hemp linen or silk? (I just got 30 yards of hemp linen to start playing
                        > with...)
                        >
                        > -Ii

                        The easy answer is "yes." <G>

                        Whatever works. Silk, linen, hemp, ramie...

                        Effingham
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