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Re: [SCA-JML] War Fan

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  • kujika@aol.com
    what is it you want to do with this war fan. fence ? hard stick fight ? just have ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 2, 2002
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      what is it you want to do with this war fan. fence ? hard stick fight ? just
      have ?


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • BamboOni@aol.com
      In a message dated 2/2/02 5:18:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... it might be you. have you checked the archives for past messages? Takabayashi Genpachi
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 2, 2002
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        In a message dated 2/2/02 5:18:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
        CaffinatedX@... writes:


        > Is it me or is this the first message in several months?
        > Yuki

        it might be you. have you checked the archives for past messages?

        Takabayashi Genpachi


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • shadow4549
        This War Fan will be used for SCA fighting. I may make another one to *just have* for costume. Primarily for SCA combat. Kuro Ookami ... fight ? just
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 2, 2002
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          This War Fan will be used for SCA fighting. I may make another one to
          *just have* for costume. Primarily for SCA combat.
          Kuro Ookami
          --- In sca-jml@y..., kujika@a... wrote:
          > what is it you want to do with this war fan. fence ? hard stick
          fight ? just
          > have ?
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • shadow4549
          Must be you. There have been several messages in the last two months that I know of. You might want to check the archives. Kuro
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 2, 2002
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            Must be you. There have been several messages in the last two months
            that I know of. You might want to check the archives.
            Kuro
            --- In sca-jml@y..., CaffinatedX@a... wrote:
            > Is it me or is this the first message in several months?
            > Yuki
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ii Saburou
            ... In that case, I would first look at SCA rules and how this fits. Specifically, I m thinking that it will be a dangerous item in that it will be thin enough
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 2, 2002
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              On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, shadow4549 wrote:

              > This War Fan will be used for SCA fighting. I may make another one to
              > *just have* for costume. Primarily for SCA combat.
              > Kuro Ookami

              In that case, I would first look at SCA rules and how this fits.
              Specifically, I'm thinking that it will be a dangerous item in that it
              will be thin enough to go through someone's grill, if you are doing heavy
              fighting.

              If you are trying to adapt something to rapier, I don't think it will be
              as much of a problem.

              BTW, by 'war fan' are you thinking metal folding fan or one of those large
              paddle-fans?

              -Ii
            • Ash Smith
              I believe he means a tessen. --Ash In a warrior s life... one should follow the path of light, but nurture the darkness within for when it is needed, without
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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                I believe he means a tessen.

                --Ash

                "In a warrior's life... one should follow the path of light, but nurture the
                darkness within for when it is needed, without allowing it to consume one's
                self." -- Ash (me)

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ii Saburou <logan@...>
                To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 12:06 AM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: War Fan


                > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, shadow4549 wrote:
                >
                > > This War Fan will be used for SCA fighting. I may make another one to
                > > *just have* for costume. Primarily for SCA combat.
                > > Kuro Ookami
                >
                > In that case, I would first look at SCA rules and how this fits.
                > Specifically, I'm thinking that it will be a dangerous item in that it
                > will be thin enough to go through someone's grill, if you are doing heavy
                > fighting.
                >
                > If you are trying to adapt something to rapier, I don't think it will be
                > as much of a problem.
                >
                > BTW, by 'war fan' are you thinking metal folding fan or one of those large
                > paddle-fans?
                >
                > -Ii
                >
                >
                >
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                >
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                >
                >
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Others have given some information, but there is one thing that needs clarification. There are *two* objects you might be mixing up. The gunsen (lit. War
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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                  shadow4549 wrote:

                  > Where can I find plans for building a war fan and does anuone know
                  > where I can find something on the techniques of using a war fan?

                  Others have given some information, but there is one thing that needs
                  clarification.

                  There are *two* objects you might be mixing up.

                  The gunsen (lit. "War fan") is a solid, flat, signalling device (and
                  occasionally a parrying device, as Uesugi Kenshin found at Kawanakajima
                  <G>), and is a relative of the thing used by modern sumo referees. It is
                  used on the field, when in armour (of course).

                  The tessen (lit. "iron fan") is a normal fan, but the vanes are made of
                  metal -- sometimes sharpened and edged -- instead of bamboo. It is a
                  clandestine weapon usually intended for defense when you can't/don't appear
                  armed, and as such is only used when in regular clothing (i.e., it's useless
                  against armoured opponents). It's also *very* (read: VERY) rare.


                  Effingham
                • Grim Shieldsson
                  I don t think you can make an acutal fan that would be SCA legal. The ribs would need to be at least 1 1/4 wide. Even for rapier, I think you have a hard
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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                    I don't think you can make an acutal fan that would be SCA legal. The
                    ribs would need to be at least 1 1/4" wide. Even for rapier, I think
                    you have a hard time getting it passed.

                    --- Ii Saburou <logan@...> wrote:
                    > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, shadow4549 wrote:
                    >
                    > > This War Fan will be used for SCA fighting. I may make another one
                    > to
                    > > *just have* for costume. Primarily for SCA combat.
                    > > Kuro Ookami
                    >
                    > In that case, I would first look at SCA rules and how this fits.
                    > Specifically, I'm thinking that it will be a dangerous item in that
                    > it
                    > will be thin enough to go through someone's grill, if you are doing
                    > heavy
                    > fighting.
                    >
                    > If you are trying to adapt something to rapier, I don't think it will
                    > be
                    > as much of a problem.
                    >
                    > BTW, by 'war fan' are you thinking metal folding fan or one of those
                    > large
                    > paddle-fans?
                    >
                    > -Ii
                    >
                    >


                    =====
                    Grim Shieldsson (James A Barrows)
                    Acting Chieftain of Clan StormWolf
                    Barbarian Freehold Alliance
                    Oppurtunity doesn't knock. It only presents itself after you kick down the door.
                    --Kyle Chandler

                    __________________________________________________
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                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... You could probably do a gunsen if you are proposing to do it like a shield. The important part for SCA fighting would be making sure it couldn t enter a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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                      On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Grim Shieldsson wrote:

                      > I don't think you can make an acutal fan that would be SCA legal. The
                      > ribs would need to be at least 1 1/4" wide. Even for rapier, I think
                      > you have a hard time getting it passed.

                      You could probably do a gunsen if you are proposing to do it like a
                      shield. The important part for SCA fighting would be making sure it
                      couldn't enter a grill, which would probably mean rubber tubing around the
                      edge of the fan just like a shield must have.

                      I have to admit, it would be an interesting alternative to 'sword and
                      shield' but I would really recommend a more nittou or two-sword approach
                      at this point, as the gunsen seems to fulfill half of the function of your
                      second sword.

                      It would look cool, though.

                      -Ii
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Kuji-dono fights with one of these. Looks REAL cool. Effingham
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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                        Ii Saburou wrote:

                        > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Grim Shieldsson wrote:
                        >
                        > > I don't think you can make an acutal fan that would be SCA legal. The
                        > > ribs would need to be at least 1 1/4" wide. Even for rapier, I think
                        > > you have a hard time getting it passed.
                        >
                        > You could probably do a gunsen if you are proposing to do it like a
                        > shield. The important part for SCA fighting would be making sure it
                        > couldn't enter a grill, which would probably mean rubber tubing around the
                        > edge of the fan just like a shield must have.
                        >
                        > I have to admit, it would be an interesting alternative to 'sword and
                        > shield' but I would really recommend a more nittou or two-sword approach
                        > at this point, as the gunsen seems to fulfill half of the function of your
                        > second sword.

                        Kuji-dono fights with one of these. Looks REAL cool.


                        Effingham
                      • shadow4549
                        The idea with this is to provide an alternative to the sword and board .It has been suggested from another list that I use a trad shield blank and remove 1/4
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 3, 2002
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                          The idea with this is to provide an alternative to the sword and board
                          .It has been suggested from another list that I use a trad shield
                          blank and remove 1/4 to 1/3, put handles on it, edge it with rubber
                          hose, and paint it to create the illusion of a tessen. I'm not sure
                          how this would work. I like the idea of the gunsen. but have the same
                          problem with it- not sure how to make it. the use of either would take
                          practice.
                          Thank you for everyones help in this matter.
                          YIS
                          Kuro Ookami
                          --- In sca-jml@y..., Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
                          > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Grim Shieldsson wrote:
                          >
                          > > I don't think you can make an acutal fan that would be SCA legal.
                          The
                          > > ribs would need to be at least 1 1/4" wide. Even for rapier, I
                          think
                          > > you have a hard time getting it passed.
                          >
                          > You could probably do a gunsen if you are proposing to do it like a
                          > shield. The important part for SCA fighting would be making sure it
                          > couldn't enter a grill, which would probably mean rubber tubing
                          around the
                          > edge of the fan just like a shield must have.
                          >
                          > I have to admit, it would be an interesting alternative to 'sword
                          and
                          > shield' but I would really recommend a more nittou or two-sword
                          approach
                          > at this point, as the gunsen seems to fulfill half of the function
                          of your
                          > second sword.
                          >
                          > It would look cool, though.
                          >
                          > -Ii
                        • kujika@aol.com
                          This is my fan. This War Fan will be used for SCA fighting. I may make another one to *just have* for costume. Primarily for SCA combat. Kuro Ookami ... fight
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 4, 2002
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                            This is my fan.


                            This War Fan will be used for SCA fighting. I may make another one to
                            *just have* for costume. Primarily for SCA combat.
                            Kuro Ookami
                            --- In sca-jml@y..., kujika@a... wrote:
                            > what is it you want to do with this war fan. fence ? hard stick
                            fight ? just
                            > have ?
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • michael A
                            kuji-donos gunsen is actually a mass weapon. the body is made of foam. it can be used for striking and has a thrusting point and is usually used as part of a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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                              kuji-donos gunsen is actually a mass weapon. the body
                              is made of foam. it can be used for striking and has a
                              thrusting point and is usually used as part of a two
                              weapon pair.
                              as for actual shield alternatives, ive seen primarily
                              two types. a version of an unfolded fan that is based
                              on a quarter circle with a handle at the circles
                              center area. ie the tip is cut of and an oval cut asa
                              handle.
                              or a play off a tate(pavis) of an arquibuseur used as
                              a small retangler center grip.
                              neither style seems rather compeling to me in
                              particular.
                              id rather use a mass weapon gunsen or just go with the
                              sword, but thats personal taste.
                              --kiyohara
                              --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                              > Ii Saburou wrote:
                              >
                              > > On Sun, 3 Feb 2002, Grim Shieldsson wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > I don't think you can make an acutal fan that
                              > would be SCA legal. The
                              > > > ribs would need to be at least 1 1/4" wide.
                              > Even for rapier, I think
                              > > > you have a hard time getting it passed.
                              > >
                              > > You could probably do a gunsen if you are
                              > proposing to do it like a
                              > > shield. The important part for SCA fighting would
                              > be making sure it
                              > > couldn't enter a grill, which would probably mean
                              > rubber tubing around the
                              > > edge of the fan just like a shield must have.
                              > >
                              > > I have to admit, it would be an interesting
                              > alternative to 'sword and
                              > > shield' but I would really recommend a more nittou
                              > or two-sword approach
                              > > at this point, as the gunsen seems to fulfill half
                              > of the function of your
                              > > second sword.
                              >
                              > Kuji-dono fights with one of these. Looks REAL cool.
                              >
                              >
                              > Effingham
                              >
                              >
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                              >


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                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... The thing is, I ve never seen anything like this in the Real World, and to my mind it falls under the bogus gear heading. ... This at least existed (in
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 5, 2002
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                                michael A wrote:

                                > kuji-donos gunsen is actually a mass weapon. the body
                                > is made of foam. it can be used for striking and has a
                                > thrusting point and is usually used as part of a two
                                > weapon pair.
                                > as for actual shield alternatives, ive seen primarily
                                > two types. a version of an unfolded fan that is based
                                > on a quarter circle with a handle at the circles
                                > center area. ie the tip is cut of and an oval cut asa
                                > handle.

                                The thing is, I've never seen anything like this in the Real World, and to
                                my mind it falls under the "bogus gear" heading.

                                >
                                > or a play off a tate(pavis) of an arquibuseur used as
                                > a small retangler center grip.

                                This at least existed (in the 13th c.), but in Sengoku armour is again under
                                "bogus gear". <G>



                                Effingham
                              • kujika@aol.com
                                something I found on fans Tessen Styles Like Japanese hand fans, Tessen were made in three basic shapes or styles. Typically, the Tessen were one shaku long,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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                                  something I found on fans

                                  Tessen Styles

                                  Like Japanese hand fans, Tessen were made in three basic shapes or styles. Typically, the Tessen were one shaku long, which is about one-half inch more than a foot by modern standards. In general, the three standard Tessen shapes included:

                                  Sensu-gata - the basic folding fan
                                  Maiohgi-gata - the style used for traditional Japanese dancing and in kabuki plays
                                  Gunsen-gata - the style used to control military troops during war

                                  Tessen, which actually folded, were also referred to as menhari-gata. These were made of metal ribs covered with silk or washi, a very strong paper. The paper was often lacquered, reinforced with gold or silver foil, or treated with oil to make it both more decorative and less susceptible to weather damage.

                                  In some cases, only the outside ribs were metal while the inside ribs were made of the more flexible and lightweight bamboo strips. The latter were less heavy and easier to carry than the former, but were only effective as a self-defence implement when closed. A folding Tessen was not only effective as a defensive weapon, but could be used as a regular hand fan if necessary. Tessen was the term used most frequently when referring to the folding style.

                                  A folding Tessen was expensive to make and difficult to maintain, though. Frequently Tessen were solid iron cast in the shape of a closed fan. This type was generally called tenarashi-gata and was usually quite heavy. Some were made with straight edges and only faintly resembled a hand fan while others were more convincing replicas.

                                  Most samurai considered tenarashi-gata much more effective in combat than the folding style. This style of Tessen also became quite popular with both the samurai police officers and their non-samurai assistants. Their disarming and arresting techniques often employed a combination of Tessen and Jutte, the iron truncheon they carried as a badge of office and as a weapon.

                                  Solid style Tessen were also carved from hard wood such as sunuke or oak. Called motsu-shaku, the solid wooden fan was fairly easy and inexpensive to make. In comparison to the heavier iron Tessen, a motsu-shaku was also lighter and therefore easier to carry. Samurai often used a motsu-shaku for self-protection as well as for practice.

                                  Tessen Decoration

                                  Both the folding and solid style often incorporated engravings of suitable poems, rank titles, animal images, or symbolic kanji characters. Sometimes a fancy silk cord wrapping was used as a handle, almost like a bladed weapon. Of course, many Tessen were of a more sober and functional style, including little or no decoration of any kind.

                                  Tessen Practice

                                  Although the practice of tessen-jutsu was considered part of the classical Japanese weapon arts, it was primarily intended for self-defence Tessen techniques were typically based on reactions for self-protection rather than more aggressive strikes. Most tessen-jutsu techniques are designed to incapacitate or restrain an individual opponent rather than for inflicting permanent injury or death.


                                  By Don Cunningham
                                • michael A
                                  agreed and this is why i find neither compelling designs -kiyohara ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 6, 2002
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                                    agreed
                                    and this is why i find neither compelling designs
                                    -kiyohara
                                    --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                    > michael A wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > kuji-donos gunsen is actually a mass weapon. the
                                    > body
                                    > > is made of foam. it can be used for striking and
                                    > has a
                                    > > thrusting point and is usually used as part of a
                                    > two
                                    > > weapon pair.
                                    > > as for actual shield alternatives, ive seen
                                    > primarily
                                    > > two types. a version of an unfolded fan that is
                                    > based
                                    > > on a quarter circle with a handle at the circles
                                    > > center area. ie the tip is cut of and an oval cut
                                    > asa
                                    > > handle.
                                    >
                                    > The thing is, I've never seen anything like this in
                                    > the Real World, and to
                                    > my mind it falls under the "bogus gear" heading.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > or a play off a tate(pavis) of an arquibuseur used
                                    > as
                                    > > a small retangler center grip.
                                    >
                                    > This at least existed (in the 13th c.), but in
                                    > Sengoku armour is again under
                                    > "bogus gear". <G>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Effingham
                                    >
                                    >
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