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Introduction with questions

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  • YahYahoogroup@aol.com
    Hello everyone. Just joined the mailing list. I have read many of the posts at the Yahoo groups archive. Lost of wonderful information. I have been
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 13, 2002
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      Hello everyone. Just joined the mailing list. I have read many of the posts
      at the Yahoo groups archive. Lost of wonderful information. I have been
      contemplating making my own armour. But had a few questions. First of all, I
      am not into the SCA, so this would not be used for combat or anything other
      than display. What would be the best gauge of steel to use? I have been
      thinking of 14 or 16 for the do, and 12 for the watagami. I know that I can
      use 16 guage since i will not be using it for any type of combat, but wanted
      to get the armor as close to period as possible. So which gauge would be
      considered closest to period? I have read and re-read Anthony Bryant's page
      on yoroi (wonderful wonderful information), but this is where I developed
      these questions. I plan to make a laced Okegawa do. Another question I have
      is, if I make the do out of 16 gauge steel, do I also make the kusazuri and
      sode from the same guage steel? Since the lames in the do are "tied" together
      during the odoshi, it would give a more solid feeling, but I did not see
      instructions like that for the kusazuri or the sode. So are the lames of
      these two items not tied together in the same fashion? Please, any and all
      help would be greatly appreciated.

      Ken
    • Ii Saburou
      ... Depends on the armour however: According to Turnbull in Samurai Warfare (p.76) the iron scales of a typical do-maru armour of the Sengoku Period were
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 13, 2002
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        On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 YahYahoogroup@... wrote:

        > thinking of 14 or 16 for the do, and 12 for the watagami. I know that I can
        > use 16 guage since i will not be using it for any type of combat, but wanted

        Depends on the armour however:

        According to Turnbull in 'Samurai Warfare' (p.76) "the iron scales of a
        typical do-maru armour of the Sengoku Period were about 0.8mm thick"
        According to the guage chart I found online
        ("http://www.precisionsheetmetal.com/home/thickness.htm") that is about
        21~22 gauge steel.

        It seems to me that SCA armour tends to be heavier than armour was in
        period, when made of metal. Part of this, I believe, comes from the fact
        that we are playing a game and don't want people to get hurt, more than we
        care about things like mobility, marching for hours on end, etc.

        Now, that said I doubt that all of the armour pieces were of the same
        thickness.

        Another work to check out might be "Arms and Armour of the Samurai" by
        Bottomley and Turnbull. I can't recall offhand whether or not that
        mentions specific thicknesses or not, but it would be a good place to
        check.

        I made my armour entirely out of 18 gauge steel; I will have to do thicker
        steel for the helmet, but for the body armour I have found that I feel
        little or nothing. I doubt that someone would have needed heavier armour
        in period.

        > these questions. I plan to make a laced Okegawa do. Another question I have
        > is, if I make the do out of 16 gauge steel, do I also make the kusazuri and
        > sode from the same guage steel? Since the lames in the do are "tied" together
        > during the odoshi, it would give a more solid feeling, but I did not see
        > instructions like that for the kusazuri or the sode. So are the lames of
        > these two items not tied together in the same fashion? Please, any and all
        > help would be greatly appreciated.

        No, the kusazuri need to be loose, as do the sode. This gives it
        articulation of sorts. Otherwise you have large, unwieldy, solid plates
        hanging off your waist and arms that would be rather uncomfortable,
        especially when sitting (Perhaps on a saddle?) trying to move your arms to
        swing a sword.

        I just put up some of the photos that I got back from making my do-maru.
        http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/12Night_plus.html Scroll down to the
        bottom and you can see pictures of what I did, including some of the
        current (but hardly finished) product.

        The bottom middle and bottom mid-right photos show the ties on the inside
        of the do. The upper right photo shows the inside ties on my sode. I'm
        not sure if all of this is right, but it is what I thought I was seeing
        and reading various places.


        -Ii
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Much too heavy. Real models tend toward 20 gauge in terms of thickness. I make combat armours out of 18 (since there is substantial overlap, this is quite
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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          YahYahoogroup@... wrote:

          > Hello everyone. Just joined the mailing list. I have read many of the posts
          > at the Yahoo groups archive. Lost of wonderful information. I have been
          > contemplating making my own armour. But had a few questions. First of all, I
          > am not into the SCA, so this would not be used for combat or anything other
          > than display. What would be the best gauge of steel to use? I have been
          > thinking of 14 or 16 for the do, and 12 for the watagami.

          Much too heavy. Real models tend toward 20 gauge in terms of thickness. I make
          combat armours out of 18 (since there is substantial overlap, this is quite
          sufficient to my experience). The kanagumawari I usually make of 16 just because
          it seems more appropriate that these be a bit more substantial.

          > I know that I can
          > use 16 guage since i will not be using it for any type of combat, but wanted
          > to get the armor as close to period as possible. So which gauge would be
          > considered closest to period? I have read and re-read Anthony Bryant's page
          > on yoroi (wonderful wonderful information), but this is where I developed
          > these questions. I plan to make a laced Okegawa do.

          Minor quibble: There is no such thing. Okegawa do are rivetted. If you're making
          a clamshell (front and back) that are laced, it's a "(sugake odoshi) ni-mai do."

          > Another question I have
          > is, if I make the do out of 16 gauge steel, do I also make the kusazuri and
          > sode from the same guage steel?

          All the same thing. Yup.

          > Since the lames in the do are "tied" together
          > during the odoshi, it would give a more solid feeling, but I did not see
          > instructions like that for the kusazuri or the sode. So are the lames of
          > these two items not tied together in the same fashion? Please, any and all
          > help would be greatly appreciated.

          Kusazuri and sode are not rigid; only the do is solidly set together. That's why
          kusazuri and sode are listed by me as "dangly bits." <G>

          If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask; I'll be glad to help.

          Effingham
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Not too shabby!! Very nice. You bringing it to Pennsic? Effingham
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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            Ii Saburou wrote:

            > I just put up some of the photos that I got back from making my do-maru.
            > http://modzer0.cs.uaf.edu/~logan/12Night_plus.html Scroll down to the
            > bottom and you can see pictures of what I did, including some of the
            > current (but hardly finished) product.
            >
            > The bottom middle and bottom mid-right photos show the ties on the inside
            > of the do. The upper right photo shows the inside ties on my sode. I'm
            > not sure if all of this is right, but it is what I thought I was seeing
            > and reading various places.

            Not too shabby!! Very nice. You bringing it to Pennsic?

            Effingham
          • Ii Saburou
            ... Well, since they won t let me out onto the field without it... BTW, I m working on the helmet (made the wooden kata, covered with tape, think I ve drawn
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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              On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

              > Not too shabby!! Very nice. You bringing it to Pennsic?

              Well, since they won't let me out onto the field without it...

              BTW, I'm working on the helmet (made the wooden kata, covered with tape,
              think I've drawn the lines [still considering precise plate placement] and
              I had a few questions:

              1) For a multiplate bowl, is it always done in multiples of 8 plates? (16,
              32, etc?)

              2) How thick do you recommend the metal to adequately protect a person in
              the SCA? (NOTE: I want what is legal, but more than that I want what will
              keep me safe. Many people have told me that going with the minimum guage
              is unsafe because the helmet is too light. However, if I decide to do a
              ribbed helmet (still deciding) and if I rivet it, do you think the helmet
              will still be too light?

              3) Where do you recommend the top hole on a helmet other than a bowl--in
              the very center, in the center of the 'flatish' spot on the top, or more
              towards the back?

              I'm sure I'll have more questions eventually.

              -Ii
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Not really, but that does seem to be the major typology, doesn t it? I ve seen multiplate helmets with 6, 8, 12, 16, 22, 24, 32, 62, and 120 plates. There
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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                Ii Saburou wrote:

                >
                > BTW, I'm working on the helmet (made the wooden kata, covered with tape,
                > think I've drawn the lines [still considering precise plate placement] and
                > I had a few questions:
                >
                > 1) For a multiplate bowl, is it always done in multiples of 8 plates? (16,
                > 32, etc?)
                >

                Not really, but that does seem to be the major typology, doesn't it?

                I've seen multiplate helmets with 6, 8, 12, 16, 22, 24, 32, 62, and 120
                plates. There are others, of course (like a few 90 platers), but these are
                the ones that show most often for 15th-17th c. styles. Earlier helmets tended
                to have fewer plates and -- rarely -- odd numbers of them.

                Definitely in the classic form that we tend to think of helmets, 8, 16, and
                32 would be the most likely SCA use -- but I've long fantasized about making
                a 62 plate ribbed helmet, or a 72-plate knobbed one just to say I'd done it.

                For the record, I've never made more than a 32 plate hachi. Yet.

                >
                > 2) How thick do you recommend the metal to adequately protect a person in
                > the SCA? (NOTE: I want what is legal, but more than that I want what will
                > keep me safe. Many people have told me that going with the minimum guage
                > is unsafe because the helmet is too light. However, if I decide to do a
                > ribbed helmet (still deciding) and if I rivet it, do you think the helmet
                > will still be too light?
                >

                Depends on your marshallate, and how people where you live gauge blows.

                Even without ridges, multiplate helmets have considerable overlap, anywhere
                from 1/4 to 3/4 of them are *two* layers thick. I'm convinced that a 32 plate
                ribbed helmet of 18 gauge would be FINE for the SCA, especially if you set
                the plate size so that there's almost a half-plate overlap, which means
                nearly the whole helmet is two layers. There is more danger with the smaller
                rivets, of course, but you also have an *increased* number of rivets, so a
                failure of one or two rivets in a multiplate is far less dangerous than it
                otherwise might be.

                I could probably get away with 18 gg. in the Middle, but I hear they hit like
                depleted uranium rounds in Atlantia.

                There's no way I'd make a multiplate out of anything more than 16 gauge, any
                way. My first multiplate was -- oh, my God -- 20 years ago, and it was a 16
                plater in 16 gauge, and when finished, it weighed a ton (to me, who was used
                to a nice, light, barrel helm).

                >
                > 3) Where do you recommend the top hole on a helmet other than a bowl--in
                > the very center, in the center of the 'flatish' spot on the top, or more
                > towards the back?
                >

                All three are legitimate placements. But I really like the centrally placed,
                flattish, small tehen, with a slight rise behind and a slighter one in front.
                The akoda-nari and most tenkokuzan shapes are too much for me.

                Actually, my singularly favorite multiplate helm of all time -- in terms of
                "perfect shape" -- is on my site at
                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/08.kabuto.html ; it's the 16-plater with
                the hineno-style visor, the helmet on the left in the second row on
                multiplates, with the caption "koboshibachi." It's the next helm I plan to
                make.

                I also lust after the ribbed 62-platers below in the gallery.


                Effingham
              • Ron Martino
                ... If you expect to be fighting folks who hit hard, 12 gauge, else 14 gauge should be okay. But this is your baby, which a lot of work will go into, so you
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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                  > 2) How thick do you recommend the metal to adequately protect a person in
                  > the SCA? (NOTE: I want what is legal, but more than that I want what will
                  > keep me safe. Many people have told me that going with the minimum guage
                  > is unsafe because the helmet is too light. However, if I decide to do a
                  > ribbed helmet (still deciding) and if I rivet it, do you think the helmet
                  > will still be too light?

                  > -Ii

                  If you expect to be fighting folks who hit hard, 12 gauge, else 14
                  gauge should be okay. But this is your baby, which a lot of work will go
                  into, so you won't want it dented.

                  Note that this total thickness - if you're going to have a great deal
                  of overlap, take that into consideration. And when the marshals ask,
                  give them the overlap thickness...

                  Yumitori
                  --

                  yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... I average it. If half the helm is 18 and half is (therefore) 9 gauge, I tell em it s between 13 and 14. Effingham
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 17, 2002
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                    Ron Martino wrote:

                    > > 2) How thick do you recommend the metal to adequately protect a person in
                    > > the SCA? (NOTE: I want what is legal, but more than that I want what will
                    > > keep me safe. Many people have told me that going with the minimum guage
                    > > is unsafe because the helmet is too light. However, if I decide to do a
                    > > ribbed helmet (still deciding) and if I rivet it, do you think the helmet
                    > > will still be too light?
                    >
                    > > -Ii
                    >
                    > If you expect to be fighting folks who hit hard, 12 gauge, else 14
                    > gauge should be okay. But this is your baby, which a lot of work will go
                    > into, so you won't want it dented.
                    >
                    > Note that this total thickness - if you're going to have a great deal
                    > of overlap, take that into consideration. And when the marshals ask,
                    > give them the overlap thickness...

                    I average it. <G> If half the helm is 18 and half is (therefore) 9 gauge, I tell
                    'em it's between 13 and 14. <G>

                    Effingham
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