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RE: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara

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  • mokurai
    Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa being the
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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      Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
      synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
      being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
      end. Any more background?

      - mokurai

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
      Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 5:15 PM
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara


      Nate Ledbetter wrote:

      > A little help from those more knowledgeable on the
      > board:
      >
      > There is a famous trio of poems, "composed" by Oda
      > Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, all
      > revolving around a hototogisu, or nightengale.
      > Although probably not composed until much later, it
      > supposedly is a commentary/gives us insight into the
      > thinking of each.
      >
      > Oda Nobunaga's was
      >
      > nakanunara
      > koroshite shimae
      > hototogisu
      >
      > (forgive my rough translation) If the nightengale
      > won't sing, kill it.
      >
      > Tokugawa Ieyasu's was
      >
      > nakanunara
      > naku made matou
      > hototogisu
      >
      > If the nightngale won't sing, wait until it does.
      >
      > Hideyoshi's was along the lines of "if the nightengale
      > won't sing, make it (coax it) to sing."
      >

      Hideyoshi's was "Nakashite miyou." A bit stronger than coax, but yeah.

      BTW, I remember some place where others provided their own middle line to
      "nakanu nara .... hototogisu."

      I liked "nakanu nara / betsu ni ii-n da / hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing,
      the nightingale, what does it matter?) and "nakanu nara / kawari ni nakou /
      hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing, the nightingale, I'll sing in its place.)

      Effingham



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    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Not really. It s probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln s writing his lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down, or
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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        mokurai wrote:

        > Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
        > synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
        > being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
        > end. Any more background?
        >

        Not really. It's probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln's writing his
        lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down,
        or Robert the Bruce being inspired by a *spider*. A good story, tells us a
        bit about the character of the person it's told about, *could* have
        happened... but 99.9% likely that it didn't. <G>

        Effingham
      • mokurai
        That was what I meant, actually. I didn t think any of the warlords were involved in it s writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the thing
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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          That was what I meant, actually. I didn't think any of the warlords were
          involved in it's writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the
          thing originated. Perhaps I should have said "folkloric roots" rather than
          history. Whatever.

          - mokurai



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:13 PM
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara


          mokurai wrote:

          > Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
          > synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
          > being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
          > end. Any more background?
          >

          Not really. It's probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln's writing his
          lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down,
          or Robert the Bruce being inspired by a *spider*. A good story, tells us a
          bit about the character of the person it's told about, *could* have
          happened... but 99.9% likely that it didn't. <G>

          Effingham





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        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Ah. Hm. I honestly don t know where this came from. It s definitely old, though. Certainly no more recent than early Edo, and possibly even late sengoku.
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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            mokurai wrote:

            > That was what I meant, actually. I didn't think any of the warlords were
            > involved in it's writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the
            > thing originated. Perhaps I should have said "folkloric roots" rather than
            > history. Whatever.
            >

            Ah. Hm. I honestly don't know where this came from. It's definitely old,
            though. Certainly no more recent than early Edo, and possibly even late
            sengoku.


            Effingham
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