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Re: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Hideyoshi s was Nakashite miyou. A bit stronger than coax, but yeah. BTW, I remember some place where others provided their own middle line to nakanu
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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      Nate Ledbetter wrote:

      > A little help from those more knowledgeable on the
      > board:
      >
      > There is a famous trio of poems, "composed" by Oda
      > Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, all
      > revolving around a hototogisu, or nightengale.
      > Although probably not composed until much later, it
      > supposedly is a commentary/gives us insight into the
      > thinking of each.
      >
      > Oda Nobunaga's was
      >
      > nakanunara
      > koroshite shimae
      > hototogisu
      >
      > (forgive my rough translation) If the nightengale
      > won't sing, kill it.
      >
      > Tokugawa Ieyasu's was
      >
      > nakanunara
      > naku made matou
      > hototogisu
      >
      > If the nightngale won't sing, wait until it does.
      >
      > Hideyoshi's was along the lines of "if the nightengale
      > won't sing, make it (coax it) to sing."
      >

      Hideyoshi's was "Nakashite miyou." A bit stronger than coax, but yeah.

      BTW, I remember some place where others provided their own middle line to
      "nakanu nara .... hototogisu."

      I liked "nakanu nara / betsu ni ii-n da / hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing,
      the nightingale, what does it matter?) and "nakanu nara / kawari ni nakou /
      hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing, the nightingale, I'll sing in its place.)

      Effingham
    • mokurai
      Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa being the
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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        Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
        synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
        being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
        end. Any more background?

        - mokurai

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
        Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 5:15 PM
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara


        Nate Ledbetter wrote:

        > A little help from those more knowledgeable on the
        > board:
        >
        > There is a famous trio of poems, "composed" by Oda
        > Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, all
        > revolving around a hototogisu, or nightengale.
        > Although probably not composed until much later, it
        > supposedly is a commentary/gives us insight into the
        > thinking of each.
        >
        > Oda Nobunaga's was
        >
        > nakanunara
        > koroshite shimae
        > hototogisu
        >
        > (forgive my rough translation) If the nightengale
        > won't sing, kill it.
        >
        > Tokugawa Ieyasu's was
        >
        > nakanunara
        > naku made matou
        > hototogisu
        >
        > If the nightngale won't sing, wait until it does.
        >
        > Hideyoshi's was along the lines of "if the nightengale
        > won't sing, make it (coax it) to sing."
        >

        Hideyoshi's was "Nakashite miyou." A bit stronger than coax, but yeah.

        BTW, I remember some place where others provided their own middle line to
        "nakanu nara .... hototogisu."

        I liked "nakanu nara / betsu ni ii-n da / hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing,
        the nightingale, what does it matter?) and "nakanu nara / kawari ni nakou /
        hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing, the nightingale, I'll sing in its place.)

        Effingham



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      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Not really. It s probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln s writing his lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down, or
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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          mokurai wrote:

          > Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
          > synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
          > being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
          > end. Any more background?
          >

          Not really. It's probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln's writing his
          lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down,
          or Robert the Bruce being inspired by a *spider*. A good story, tells us a
          bit about the character of the person it's told about, *could* have
          happened... but 99.9% likely that it didn't. <G>

          Effingham
        • mokurai
          That was what I meant, actually. I didn t think any of the warlords were involved in it s writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the thing
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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            That was what I meant, actually. I didn't think any of the warlords were
            involved in it's writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the
            thing originated. Perhaps I should have said "folkloric roots" rather than
            history. Whatever.

            - mokurai



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:13 PM
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara


            mokurai wrote:

            > Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
            > synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
            > being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
            > end. Any more background?
            >

            Not really. It's probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln's writing his
            lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down,
            or Robert the Bruce being inspired by a *spider*. A good story, tells us a
            bit about the character of the person it's told about, *could* have
            happened... but 99.9% likely that it didn't. <G>

            Effingham





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            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Ah. Hm. I honestly don t know where this came from. It s definitely old, though. Certainly no more recent than early Edo, and possibly even late sengoku.
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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              mokurai wrote:

              > That was what I meant, actually. I didn't think any of the warlords were
              > involved in it's writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the
              > thing originated. Perhaps I should have said "folkloric roots" rather than
              > history. Whatever.
              >

              Ah. Hm. I honestly don't know where this came from. It's definitely old,
              though. Certainly no more recent than early Edo, and possibly even late
              sengoku.


              Effingham
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