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Hitoe help

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  • Ii Saburou
    I m trying to figure out just what pattern a hitoe should be made on. I m seeing two very different garments in Jidai Ishou no Nuikata (JIN) and was
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2002
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      I'm trying to figure out just what pattern a 'hitoe' should be made on.
      I'm seeing two very different garments in "Jidai Ishou no Nuikata" (JIN)
      and was wondering if people could help me puzzle them out.

      The first 'hitoe' appears to go with the sokutai. It is only 85cm in
      length, and the sides are not sewn together. (Page 73 in JIN)

      The other is listed with the Jyuu-ni-hitoe, and there is very little by
      way of a description. However, it is 202cm in length, and it appears as
      though the sides are supposed to be sewn together for most of the way (the
      numbers seem to indicate 28 cm from soulder down, where the sleeve is
      connected, then 20 cm that I assume would be open, followed by an unmarked
      length to the bottom that I assume is closed, else why specifically mark
      the armpit--unless that is sewn together and I have the two mixed up).
      (See page 103, JIN)

      There are a couple of other hitoe. One on page 171 there is one that
      appears to be a smaller version of one that wasn't actually used, but the
      general pattern would be the same, I think. This one shows the sides sewn
      up and the back open, which is another differens (page 171, JIN)

      Then there is the Fujiwara Motohira's plain white hitoe. It gives no
      indication of an opening--the sleeves seems to be completely sewn to the
      garment without an opening at the armpits. Moreover it appears to be sewn
      all the way down the sides. The front panels are awkward on this one
      (IMHO)--it almost seems like they were sewn on backwards from the normal
      garment. I'm not sure if this is a common garment or an exception. (Page
      178 JIN)

      Then there is 'Dai yon onzo' hitoe which appears to be the hitoe for a
      5-layered imperial combination. It also appears to have the sleeves
      completely sewn on, and at least appears to be connected all the way down.
      (Page 208, JIN)

      The latter patterns appear to be more complex versions of the garment, but
      I'm not sure if they are typical of garments in the Heian Jidai, which is
      why I am focussing on the first two.

      Reading the Japanese classic, "Tale of Genji" it seems that giving someone
      a 'layer' of clothing was rather common. Furthermore, men gave to women
      and vice versa, and I seem to recall that Genji was wearing one of the
      garments he had taken from one of his many interests (Locust shell? I'll
      have to find it again).

      If this happened--men and women exchaning clothing--it would seem that the
      garments should not be gender specific. Since the only two garments that
      I have so far found to be non gender specific appear to be the hitoe and
      kosode, with the latter appearing to be more in use in the later periods,
      the hitoe would seem to be the garment being discussed.

      Otherwise, what garments are they giving after these intimate moments?
      Would people keep closets of garments in case you had a romantic encounter
      and needed to give the person a parting gift?*

      Furthermore, if this is the garment being exchanged (the hitoe) what
      guidelines should I follow for the pattern? I guess I need to know what
      makes it a hitoe--not the length, not the fabric, not the collar, not the
      sides--just the fact that it was a single layer worn next to the skin?


      Any help would be greatly appreciated.

      -Ii


      *So, does anyone else ever feel like Genji today would get thrown in jail
      for both sexual assault and theft?
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Well, think of the word hitoe as comparable to the English shirt or gown. Lots of different garments have that same name, so context is really needed.
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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        Ii Saburou wrote:

        > I'm trying to figure out just what pattern a 'hitoe' should be made on.
        > I'm seeing two very different garments in "Jidai Ishou no Nuikata" (JIN)
        > and was wondering if people could help me puzzle them out.
        >

        Well, think of the word "hitoe" as comparable to the English "shirt"or "gown." Lots of
        different garments have that same name, so context is really needed. There is only one
        man's hitoe pattern when you're talking about sokutai and noshi.

        >
        > The first 'hitoe' appears to go with the sokutai. It is only 85cm in
        > length, and the sides are not sewn together. (Page 73 in JIN)
        >

        That's the one you need.

        >
        > The other is listed with the Jyuu-ni-hitoe, and there is very little by
        > way of a description. However, it is 202cm in length, and it appears as
        > though the sides are supposed to be sewn together for most of the way (the
        > numbers seem to indicate 28 cm from soulder down, where the sleeve is
        > connected, then 20 cm that I assume would be open, followed by an unmarked
        > length to the bottom that I assume is closed, else why specifically mark
        > the armpit--unless that is sewn together and I have the two mixed up).
        > (See page 103, JIN)

        Unless you're planning to develop a court lady persona, you don't need *this* hitoe.
        <G>

        >
        >
        > There are a couple of other hitoe. One on page 171 there is one that
        > appears to be a smaller version of one that wasn't actually used, but the
        > general pattern would be the same, I think. This one shows the sides sewn
        > up and the back open, which is another differens (page 171, JIN)
        >

        I can't put my hands on the book right now, so I'll have to let this one go for now.

        >
        > Then there is the Fujiwara Motohira's plain white hitoe. It gives no
        > indication of an opening--the sleeves seems to be completely sewn to the
        > garment without an opening at the armpits. Moreover it appears to be sewn
        > all the way down the sides. The front panels are awkward on this one
        > (IMHO)--it almost seems like they were sewn on backwards from the normal
        > garment. I'm not sure if this is a common garment or an exception. (Page
        > 178 JIN)
        >

        If you see the word "hitoe" on a garment that's cut like a kimono, it means
        "underwear" -- unlined garments (which is what hitoe means: hito, one, and e, layer)
        of that type, whether for men or women, were typically used for wear under other
        garments.

        >
        > Then there is 'Dai yon onzo' hitoe which appears to be the hitoe for a
        > 5-layered imperial combination. It also appears to have the sleeves
        > completely sewn on, and at least appears to be connected all the way down.
        > (Page 208, JIN)
        >

        Wimmin's stuff again? <G>

        >
        > The latter patterns appear to be more complex versions of the garment, but
        > I'm not sure if they are typical of garments in the Heian Jidai, which is
        > why I am focussing on the first two.
        >
        > Reading the Japanese classic, "Tale of Genji" it seems that giving someone
        > a 'layer' of clothing was rather common. Furthermore, men gave to women
        > and vice versa, and I seem to recall that Genji was wearing one of the
        > garments he had taken from one of his many interests (Locust shell? I'll
        > have to find it again).
        >
        > If this happened--men and women exchaning clothing--it would seem that the
        > garments should not be gender specific. Since the only two garments that
        > I have so far found to be non gender specific appear to be the hitoe and
        > kosode, with the latter appearing to be more in use in the later periods,
        > the hitoe would seem to be the garment being discussed.

        Under robes are under robes; the cut is generally close enough. <G> The formal hitoe
        worn with sokutai and noshi is, however, a very specific garment, and could well be
        called "hitoe no akome" as that's more what it looks like than anything else.

        >
        >
        > Otherwise, what garments are they giving after these intimate moments?
        > Would people keep closets of garments in case you had a romantic encounter
        > and needed to give the person a parting gift?*
        >

        It would be underrobes, the closest thing to unisex they had. That is, kimono-like
        hitoe.

        Usually, however, you give someone a *real* garment; a ho, a noshi, a karaginu --
        something like that.

        >
        > Furthermore, if this is the garment being exchanged (the hitoe) what
        > guidelines should I follow for the pattern? I guess I need to know what
        > makes it a hitoe--not the length, not the fabric, not the collar, not the
        > sides--just the fact that it was a single layer worn next to the skin?
        >

        Bingo. <G>


        Effingham
      • Nate Ledbetter
        A little help from those more knowledgeable on the board: There is a famous trio of poems, composed by Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu,
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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          A little help from those more knowledgeable on the
          board:

          There is a famous trio of poems, "composed" by Oda
          Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, all
          revolving around a hototogisu, or nightengale.
          Although probably not composed until much later, it
          supposedly is a commentary/gives us insight into the
          thinking of each.

          Oda Nobunaga's was

          nakanunara
          koroshite shimae
          hototogisu

          (forgive my rough translation) If the nightengale
          won't sing, kill it.

          Tokugawa Ieyasu's was

          nakanunara
          naku made matou
          hototogisu

          If the nightngale won't sing, wait until it does.

          Hideyoshi's was along the lines of "if the nightengale
          won't sing, make it (coax it) to sing."

          Can anybody give me the Japanese version? I can't for
          the life of me remember.

          Thanks,

          Shonaigawa

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        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Hideyoshi s was Nakashite miyou. A bit stronger than coax, but yeah. BTW, I remember some place where others provided their own middle line to nakanu
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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            Nate Ledbetter wrote:

            > A little help from those more knowledgeable on the
            > board:
            >
            > There is a famous trio of poems, "composed" by Oda
            > Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, all
            > revolving around a hototogisu, or nightengale.
            > Although probably not composed until much later, it
            > supposedly is a commentary/gives us insight into the
            > thinking of each.
            >
            > Oda Nobunaga's was
            >
            > nakanunara
            > koroshite shimae
            > hototogisu
            >
            > (forgive my rough translation) If the nightengale
            > won't sing, kill it.
            >
            > Tokugawa Ieyasu's was
            >
            > nakanunara
            > naku made matou
            > hototogisu
            >
            > If the nightngale won't sing, wait until it does.
            >
            > Hideyoshi's was along the lines of "if the nightengale
            > won't sing, make it (coax it) to sing."
            >

            Hideyoshi's was "Nakashite miyou." A bit stronger than coax, but yeah.

            BTW, I remember some place where others provided their own middle line to
            "nakanu nara .... hototogisu."

            I liked "nakanu nara / betsu ni ii-n da / hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing,
            the nightingale, what does it matter?) and "nakanu nara / kawari ni nakou /
            hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing, the nightingale, I'll sing in its place.)

            Effingham
          • mokurai
            Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa being the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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              Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
              synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
              being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
              end. Any more background?

              - mokurai

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
              Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 5:15 PM
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara


              Nate Ledbetter wrote:

              > A little help from those more knowledgeable on the
              > board:
              >
              > There is a famous trio of poems, "composed" by Oda
              > Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, all
              > revolving around a hototogisu, or nightengale.
              > Although probably not composed until much later, it
              > supposedly is a commentary/gives us insight into the
              > thinking of each.
              >
              > Oda Nobunaga's was
              >
              > nakanunara
              > koroshite shimae
              > hototogisu
              >
              > (forgive my rough translation) If the nightengale
              > won't sing, kill it.
              >
              > Tokugawa Ieyasu's was
              >
              > nakanunara
              > naku made matou
              > hototogisu
              >
              > If the nightngale won't sing, wait until it does.
              >
              > Hideyoshi's was along the lines of "if the nightengale
              > won't sing, make it (coax it) to sing."
              >

              Hideyoshi's was "Nakashite miyou." A bit stronger than coax, but yeah.

              BTW, I remember some place where others provided their own middle line to
              "nakanu nara .... hototogisu."

              I liked "nakanu nara / betsu ni ii-n da / hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing,
              the nightingale, what does it matter?) and "nakanu nara / kawari ni nakou /
              hototogisu" (if it doesn't sing, the nightingale, I'll sing in its place.)

              Effingham



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            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Not really. It s probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln s writing his lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down, or
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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                mokurai wrote:

                > Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
                > synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
                > being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
                > end. Any more background?
                >

                Not really. It's probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln's writing his
                lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down,
                or Robert the Bruce being inspired by a *spider*. A good story, tells us a
                bit about the character of the person it's told about, *could* have
                happened... but 99.9% likely that it didn't. <G>

                Effingham
              • mokurai
                That was what I meant, actually. I didn t think any of the warlords were involved in it s writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the thing
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 10, 2002
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                  That was what I meant, actually. I didn't think any of the warlords were
                  involved in it's writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the
                  thing originated. Perhaps I should have said "folkloric roots" rather than
                  history. Whatever.

                  - mokurai



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:13 PM
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Nakanunara


                  mokurai wrote:

                  > Ok, but what is the history of this? I was only aware that it was a folk
                  > synopsis of their differing styles as tacticians/leaders - with Tokugawa
                  > being the final exemplar since he was the patient one who won out in the
                  > end. Any more background?
                  >

                  Not really. It's probably about as historical as Abe Lincoln's writing his
                  lessons in chalk on a coal shovel, Washington chopping the cherry tree down,
                  or Robert the Bruce being inspired by a *spider*. A good story, tells us a
                  bit about the character of the person it's told about, *could* have
                  happened... but 99.9% likely that it didn't. <G>

                  Effingham





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                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Ah. Hm. I honestly don t know where this came from. It s definitely old, though. Certainly no more recent than early Edo, and possibly even late sengoku.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 16, 2002
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                    mokurai wrote:

                    > That was what I meant, actually. I didn't think any of the warlords were
                    > involved in it's writing. I was wondering if there was any data on where the
                    > thing originated. Perhaps I should have said "folkloric roots" rather than
                    > history. Whatever.
                    >

                    Ah. Hm. I honestly don't know where this came from. It's definitely old,
                    though. Certainly no more recent than early Edo, and possibly even late
                    sengoku.


                    Effingham
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