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Re: [SCA-JML] Mon question

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  • Barbara Nostrand
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I am not going to say that foxes are totally absent from Japanese heraldry, I will say that they are quite uncommon if
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! I am not going to say that foxes are totally
      absent from Japanese heraldry, I will say that they are quite uncommon
      if they are there. They may show up in the Matsuya catalogue. They do
      not show up in my the Japanese kamon books that I have lying around
      here at the moment and they do not show up in Elements of Japanese
      Design by Dower. It is hard to imagine a way in which a Japanese
      person would view the fox as being auspicious. According to a friend
      of mine, they even had fox trials in Japan similar to witch trials in
      Europe and America. You would not generally want to identify yourself
      with or as a fox in Japan.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar
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    • logan@modzer0.cs.uaf.edu
      ... in ... yourself ... While I don t disagree that kitsune were hardly seen as auspicious in general, what about the inari shrines found all over the place?
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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        > Design by Dower. It is hard to imagine a way in which a Japanese
        > person would view the fox as being auspicious. According to a friend
        > of mine, they even had fox trials in Japan similar to witch trials
        in
        > Europe and America. You would not generally want to identify
        yourself
        > with or as a fox in Japan.

        While I don't disagree that kitsune were hardly seen as auspicious in
        general, what about the inari shrines found all over the place?

        It seems to me that the fox was not quite so inauspicious until
        influence from the mainland, where there are stories about foxes
        similar to werewolf stories in Europe to some extent. I really want
        to find more evidence one way or another, but the native religion
        seems to view the foxes as messengers of the gods and inari shrines
        are set up to pray for a good harvest, I was told.

        I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
        brought it with them or it came later? For someone raising chickens,
        for example, foxes would be seen as something treacherous, whereas a
        rice paddy farmer might see them as beneficial since they chase off
        the rabbits and other animals that might eat your crop.

        Also, there seems to be other seemingly inauspicious symbols used on
        the battlefield--skulls, centipedes, snakes--although I don't know
        that it would find its way onto a formal kamon.

        -Ii
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association between
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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          Ii Dono!

          Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as
          the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association
          between kitsune and the inari shrines does not mean that the foxes are
          somehow good guys. They are not viewed as ultimate evil either. They
          are sort of trickster archetypes. As far as mainland influence goes,
          we don't have anything written down from before mainland influence.

          >I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
          >brought it with them or it came later?

          That question will get you bogged down in the question of who are the
          Japanese and where did they come from. For some reason I never associated
          rabbits with flooded rice paddies. Interestingly enough, the rabbit is
          fairly popular in Japan and shows up in kamon.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Schcolar
          --
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        • Ash Smith
          Re: The rabbits One reason for the rabbit s popularity (even today as can be seen especially in anime and etc). Is that the Japanese believe in order to be
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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            Re: The rabbits
            One reason for the rabbit's popularity (even today as can be seen especially
            in anime and etc). Is that the Japanese believe in order to be strong, one
            must first be meek. (This is why many Japanese story heroes are blithering
            idiots/innocents/children/etc) The rabbit makes a perfect symbol for
            meek/weak.

            --Ash

            Yeah though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
            For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...>
            To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:15 PM
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon question


            > Ii Dono!
            >
            > Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as
            > the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association
            > between kitsune and the inari shrines does not mean that the foxes are
            > somehow good guys. They are not viewed as ultimate evil either. They
            > are sort of trickster archetypes. As far as mainland influence goes,
            > we don't have anything written down from before mainland influence.
            >
            > >I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
            > >brought it with them or it came later?
            >
            > That question will get you bogged down in the question of who are the
            > Japanese and where did they come from. For some reason I never associated
            > rabbits with flooded rice paddies. Interestingly enough, the rabbit is
            > fairly popular in Japan and shows up in kamon.
            >
            > Your Humble Servant
            > Solveig Throndardottir
            > Amateur Schcolar
            > --
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            > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
            > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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