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Re: [SCA-JML] Mon question

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  • kujika@aol.com
    I am the last person who should talk about Japanese heraldry with that said. I have never seen a fox used. But if the idea of heraldry is to be able to tell
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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      I am the last person who should talk about Japanese heraldry with that said.
      I have never seen a fox used.
      But if the idea of heraldry is to be able to tell who’s who in the field of battle keep it simple.
      I know that at a glance I would not be able to tell the deference between a fox a dog or a wolf on a banner blowing in the wind, but I am not that bright and should not talk about Japanese heraldry or heraldry of any kind.
    • ellen.m.davis@att.net
      As I don t plan to fight, this would not be meant for battle. I was playing with the idea of having a white fox with three tails as a badge. Ellen
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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        As I don't plan to fight, this would not be meant for
        battle. I was playing with the idea of having a white
        fox with three tails as a badge.

        Ellen
        > I am the last person who should talk about Japanese heraldry with that said.
        > I have never seen a fox used.
        > But if the idea of heraldry is to be able to tell who�s who in the field of
        > battle keep it simple.
        > I know that at a glance I would not be able to tell the deference between a fox
        > a dog or a wolf on a banner blowing in the wind, but I am not that bright and
        > should not talk about Japanese heraldry or heraldry of any kind.
        >
        >
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      • kujika@aol.com
        as I said I don t realy know anything about heraldry maybe your ok. Who knows if there is a defrent kind of thinking form heraldry ment for the battle field
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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          as I said I don't realy know anything about heraldry maybe your ok. Who knows if there is a defrent kind of thinking form heraldry ment for the battle field and heraldry ment for anything else.

          maybe a herald would know.
        • Barbara Nostrand
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I am not going to say that foxes are totally absent from Japanese heraldry, I will say that they are quite uncommon if
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! I am not going to say that foxes are totally
            absent from Japanese heraldry, I will say that they are quite uncommon
            if they are there. They may show up in the Matsuya catalogue. They do
            not show up in my the Japanese kamon books that I have lying around
            here at the moment and they do not show up in Elements of Japanese
            Design by Dower. It is hard to imagine a way in which a Japanese
            person would view the fox as being auspicious. According to a friend
            of mine, they even had fox trials in Japan similar to witch trials in
            Europe and America. You would not generally want to identify yourself
            with or as a fox in Japan.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
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          • logan@modzer0.cs.uaf.edu
            ... in ... yourself ... While I don t disagree that kitsune were hardly seen as auspicious in general, what about the inari shrines found all over the place?
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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              > Design by Dower. It is hard to imagine a way in which a Japanese
              > person would view the fox as being auspicious. According to a friend
              > of mine, they even had fox trials in Japan similar to witch trials
              in
              > Europe and America. You would not generally want to identify
              yourself
              > with or as a fox in Japan.

              While I don't disagree that kitsune were hardly seen as auspicious in
              general, what about the inari shrines found all over the place?

              It seems to me that the fox was not quite so inauspicious until
              influence from the mainland, where there are stories about foxes
              similar to werewolf stories in Europe to some extent. I really want
              to find more evidence one way or another, but the native religion
              seems to view the foxes as messengers of the gods and inari shrines
              are set up to pray for a good harvest, I was told.

              I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
              brought it with them or it came later? For someone raising chickens,
              for example, foxes would be seen as something treacherous, whereas a
              rice paddy farmer might see them as beneficial since they chase off
              the rabbits and other animals that might eat your crop.

              Also, there seems to be other seemingly inauspicious symbols used on
              the battlefield--skulls, centipedes, snakes--although I don't know
              that it would find its way onto a formal kamon.

              -Ii
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association between
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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                Ii Dono!

                Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as
                the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association
                between kitsune and the inari shrines does not mean that the foxes are
                somehow good guys. They are not viewed as ultimate evil either. They
                are sort of trickster archetypes. As far as mainland influence goes,
                we don't have anything written down from before mainland influence.

                >I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
                >brought it with them or it came later?

                That question will get you bogged down in the question of who are the
                Japanese and where did they come from. For some reason I never associated
                rabbits with flooded rice paddies. Interestingly enough, the rabbit is
                fairly popular in Japan and shows up in kamon.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Schcolar
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              • Ash Smith
                Re: The rabbits One reason for the rabbit s popularity (even today as can be seen especially in anime and etc). Is that the Japanese believe in order to be
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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                  Re: The rabbits
                  One reason for the rabbit's popularity (even today as can be seen especially
                  in anime and etc). Is that the Japanese believe in order to be strong, one
                  must first be meek. (This is why many Japanese story heroes are blithering
                  idiots/innocents/children/etc) The rabbit makes a perfect symbol for
                  meek/weak.

                  --Ash

                  Yeah though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
                  For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...>
                  To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:15 PM
                  Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon question


                  > Ii Dono!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as
                  > the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association
                  > between kitsune and the inari shrines does not mean that the foxes are
                  > somehow good guys. They are not viewed as ultimate evil either. They
                  > are sort of trickster archetypes. As far as mainland influence goes,
                  > we don't have anything written down from before mainland influence.
                  >
                  > >I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
                  > >brought it with them or it came later?
                  >
                  > That question will get you bogged down in the question of who are the
                  > Japanese and where did they come from. For some reason I never associated
                  > rabbits with flooded rice paddies. Interestingly enough, the rabbit is
                  > fairly popular in Japan and shows up in kamon.
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Schcolar
                  > --
                  > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                  > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  > | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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