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Mon question

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  • ellen.m.davis@att.net
    Ohayoo all, Just a curiosity question. Were foxes (kitsune) ever used in Japanese heraldry? (I suspect not but am unsure.) Fascinated by the kitsune legends,
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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      Ohayoo all,

      Just a curiosity question. Were foxes (kitsune) ever
      used in Japanese heraldry? (I suspect not but am
      unsure.)

      Fascinated by the kitsune legends,
      Ellen
    • kujika@aol.com
      I am the last person who should talk about Japanese heraldry with that said. I have never seen a fox used. But if the idea of heraldry is to be able to tell
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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        I am the last person who should talk about Japanese heraldry with that said.
        I have never seen a fox used.
        But if the idea of heraldry is to be able to tell who’s who in the field of battle keep it simple.
        I know that at a glance I would not be able to tell the deference between a fox a dog or a wolf on a banner blowing in the wind, but I am not that bright and should not talk about Japanese heraldry or heraldry of any kind.
      • ellen.m.davis@att.net
        As I don t plan to fight, this would not be meant for battle. I was playing with the idea of having a white fox with three tails as a badge. Ellen
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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          As I don't plan to fight, this would not be meant for
          battle. I was playing with the idea of having a white
          fox with three tails as a badge.

          Ellen
          > I am the last person who should talk about Japanese heraldry with that said.
          > I have never seen a fox used.
          > But if the idea of heraldry is to be able to tell who�s who in the field of
          > battle keep it simple.
          > I know that at a glance I would not be able to tell the deference between a fox
          > a dog or a wolf on a banner blowing in the wind, but I am not that bright and
          > should not talk about Japanese heraldry or heraldry of any kind.
          >
          >
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        • kujika@aol.com
          as I said I don t realy know anything about heraldry maybe your ok. Who knows if there is a defrent kind of thinking form heraldry ment for the battle field
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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            as I said I don't realy know anything about heraldry maybe your ok. Who knows if there is a defrent kind of thinking form heraldry ment for the battle field and heraldry ment for anything else.

            maybe a herald would know.
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I am not going to say that foxes are totally absent from Japanese heraldry, I will say that they are quite uncommon if
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 1, 2001
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! I am not going to say that foxes are totally
              absent from Japanese heraldry, I will say that they are quite uncommon
              if they are there. They may show up in the Matsuya catalogue. They do
              not show up in my the Japanese kamon books that I have lying around
              here at the moment and they do not show up in Elements of Japanese
              Design by Dower. It is hard to imagine a way in which a Japanese
              person would view the fox as being auspicious. According to a friend
              of mine, they even had fox trials in Japan similar to witch trials in
              Europe and America. You would not generally want to identify yourself
              with or as a fox in Japan.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
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            • logan@modzer0.cs.uaf.edu
              ... in ... yourself ... While I don t disagree that kitsune were hardly seen as auspicious in general, what about the inari shrines found all over the place?
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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                > Design by Dower. It is hard to imagine a way in which a Japanese
                > person would view the fox as being auspicious. According to a friend
                > of mine, they even had fox trials in Japan similar to witch trials
                in
                > Europe and America. You would not generally want to identify
                yourself
                > with or as a fox in Japan.

                While I don't disagree that kitsune were hardly seen as auspicious in
                general, what about the inari shrines found all over the place?

                It seems to me that the fox was not quite so inauspicious until
                influence from the mainland, where there are stories about foxes
                similar to werewolf stories in Europe to some extent. I really want
                to find more evidence one way or another, but the native religion
                seems to view the foxes as messengers of the gods and inari shrines
                are set up to pray for a good harvest, I was told.

                I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
                brought it with them or it came later? For someone raising chickens,
                for example, foxes would be seen as something treacherous, whereas a
                rice paddy farmer might see them as beneficial since they chase off
                the rabbits and other animals that might eat your crop.

                Also, there seems to be other seemingly inauspicious symbols used on
                the battlefield--skulls, centipedes, snakes--although I don't know
                that it would find its way onto a formal kamon.

                -Ii
              • Barbara Nostrand
                Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association between
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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                  Ii Dono!

                  Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as
                  the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association
                  between kitsune and the inari shrines does not mean that the foxes are
                  somehow good guys. They are not viewed as ultimate evil either. They
                  are sort of trickster archetypes. As far as mainland influence goes,
                  we don't have anything written down from before mainland influence.

                  >I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
                  >brought it with them or it came later?

                  That question will get you bogged down in the question of who are the
                  Japanese and where did they come from. For some reason I never associated
                  rabbits with flooded rice paddies. Interestingly enough, the rabbit is
                  fairly popular in Japan and shows up in kamon.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Schcolar
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                • Ash Smith
                  Re: The rabbits One reason for the rabbit s popularity (even today as can be seen especially in anime and etc). Is that the Japanese believe in order to be
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 4, 2001
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                    Re: The rabbits
                    One reason for the rabbit's popularity (even today as can be seen especially
                    in anime and etc). Is that the Japanese believe in order to be strong, one
                    must first be meek. (This is why many Japanese story heroes are blithering
                    idiots/innocents/children/etc) The rabbit makes a perfect symbol for
                    meek/weak.

                    --Ash

                    Yeah though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
                    For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...>
                    To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:15 PM
                    Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon question


                    > Ii Dono!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig! You need to remember that Arabitogami such as
                    > the Soga brothers can be turned into agricultural gods. The association
                    > between kitsune and the inari shrines does not mean that the foxes are
                    > somehow good guys. They are not viewed as ultimate evil either. They
                    > are sort of trickster archetypes. As far as mainland influence goes,
                    > we don't have anything written down from before mainland influence.
                    >
                    > >I wonder how much livestock was kept by the Japanese, and whether they
                    > >brought it with them or it came later?
                    >
                    > That question will get you bogged down in the question of who are the
                    > Japanese and where did they come from. For some reason I never associated
                    > rabbits with flooded rice paddies. Interestingly enough, the rabbit is
                    > fairly popular in Japan and shows up in kamon.
                    >
                    > Your Humble Servant
                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                    > Amateur Schcolar
                    > --
                    > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                    > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    > | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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