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First Japanese contact with Europe?

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  • Ash Smith
    Is there any documentation as to when the first Nihonjin(Japanese person) visited Europe? Or any speculation? --Ash Yeh though I walk through the valley of the
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 30, 2001
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      Is there any documentation as to when the first Nihonjin(Japanese person)
      visited Europe?
      Or any speculation?

      --Ash

      Yeh though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
      For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.
    • Barbara Nostrand
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they didn t
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 30, 2001
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were
        Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they
        didn't have much reason to go further and usually stopped in China.
        During classical Japan, we have evidence of at least cultural contact
        as far West as Iran. We know the names of Japanese who visited Rome
        at the end of the sixteenth century.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
        --
        +----------------------------------+----------------------------------+
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      • Nate Ledbetter
        ... As a matter of fact, they are all documented. Every single individual. I can t at the moment geiv you names and such, but we know of every single person to
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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          --- Ash Smith <chronoknight@...> wrote:
          > Is there any documentation as to when the first
          > Nihonjin(Japanese person)
          > visited Europe?
          > Or any speculation?
          >
          > --Ash

          As a matter of fact, they are all documented. Every
          single individual. I can't at the moment geiv you
          names and such, but we know of every single person to
          visit Europe from Japan (they were all sons of
          Christian samurai from Kyushu, I believe; though I
          have heard something about Date Masamune sending out a
          contact on his own sometime later.)

          Hope this helps, I believe Solveig-dono has more info
          (okay, there is a shocker!LOL)

          Shonaigawa

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        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... God, piles of it. The Otomo, Arima, and Omura daimyo sent a mission to Rome in 1582. Four kids (good Cat lics all) and a small suite of handlers from the
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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            Ash Smith wrote:

            > Is there any documentation as to when the first Nihonjin(Japanese person)
            > visited Europe?
            > Or any speculation?

            God, piles of it.

            The Otomo, Arima, and Omura daimyo sent a mission to Rome in 1582. Four kids
            (good Cat'lics all) and a small suite of handlers from the Portuguese mission
            to Japan. They were the toast of Italy, and news of the mission was reported
            as far away as Lithuania. There are extant portraits of them having audiences
            with The Papa dressed variously in Japanese garb and European finery. They
            returned to Japan in 1590.

            Elisonas talks about them at a bit of detail in "Deus Destroyed."


            Effingham
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... I ve always felt such claims were taking too much liberty with the evidence. Transmittal of goods does not necessarily imply actual physical contact. If I
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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              Barbara Nostrand wrote:

              > Noble Cousin!
              >
              > Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were
              > Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they
              > didn't have much reason to go further and usually stopped in China.
              > During classical Japan, we have evidence of at least cultural contact
              > as far West as Iran.

              I've always felt such claims were taking too much liberty with the evidence.
              Transmittal of goods does not necessarily imply actual physical contact. If
              I give you a book a friend of mine picked up on a trip to Egypt, it doesn't
              mean *you* had contact with Egypt, nor even that *I* had contact with Egypt.
              Persian goods in the Shosoin are exactly the same way; exotic goods were
              being traded back and forth along the silk road, and while I have no doubts
              that the merchandise may have travelled, I doubt very strongly actual
              Japanese people went there to get them. That's the nature of mercantilism;
              things are made and shipped.


              Effingham
            • Ash Smith
              The reason I ask is because the household I am hoping to become part of is mostly late period Celts, and I was wondering if there would be a way to explain why
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                The reason I ask is because the household I am hoping to become part of is
                mostly late period Celts, and I was wondering if there would be a way to
                explain why the heck I was with them... not really important, but would be
                neat if I could weave some story about getting lost from my group on a
                voyage , ended up with these guys, etc etc.

                Failing that I suppose I can just do the whole household/persona seperation
                thing that so many people do :)

                -- Ash
                Yeah though I w

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:52 AM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] First Japanese contact with Europe?


                > Barbara Nostrand wrote:
                >
                > > Noble Cousin!
                > >
                > > Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were
                > > Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they
                > > didn't have much reason to go further and usually stopped in China.
                > > During classical Japan, we have evidence of at least cultural contact
                > > as far West as Iran.
                >
                > I've always felt such claims were taking too much liberty with the
                evidence.
                > Transmittal of goods does not necessarily imply actual physical contact.
                If
                > I give you a book a friend of mine picked up on a trip to Egypt, it
                doesn't
                > mean *you* had contact with Egypt, nor even that *I* had contact with
                Egypt.
                > Persian goods in the Shosoin are exactly the same way; exotic goods were
                > being traded back and forth along the silk road, and while I have no
                doubts
                > that the merchandise may have travelled, I doubt very strongly actual
                > Japanese people went there to get them. That's the nature of mercantilism;
                > things are made and shipped.
                >
                >
                > Effingham
                >
                >
                >
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Elsyr
                Ack! I would definitely recommend against trying to come up with a far fetched (if not totally impossible) persona story that explains your presence in a
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                  Ack! I would definitely recommend against trying to come up with a far fetched
                  (if not totally impossible) persona story that explains your presence in a
                  Celtic household. If you want to be part of a Celtic themed household, there's
                  nothing in the "rules" of our game that says you cannot have a seperate persona
                  that fits in with that group in addition to your Japanese persona. Personally,
                  I belong to a household that dresses and fights in the mode of ancient Sparta
                  ... so I have a Spartan persona (and the armor and garb to match) for wars and
                  other events in which I am part of that group. However, when I am wandering
                  around Pennsic shopping, or I am fighting solo, or I get dressed up for
                  something, you are much more likely to see me in my sengoku jidai get up. It is
                  far better, in my opinion, to have a split persona(lity), than to be massively
                  historically improbable.

                  Sakurakawa

                  Ash Smith wrote:

                  > The reason I ask is because the household I am hoping to become part of is
                  > mostly late period Celts, and I was wondering if there would be a way to
                  > explain why the heck I was with them... not really important, but would be
                  > neat if I could weave some story about getting lost from my group on a
                  > voyage , ended up with these guys, etc etc.
                  >
                  > Failing that I suppose I can just do the whole household/persona seperation
                  > thing that so many people do :)
                  >
                  > -- Ash
                  > Yeah though I w
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                  > To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:52 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] First Japanese contact with Europe?
                  >
                  > > Barbara Nostrand wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Noble Cousin!
                  > > >
                  > > > Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were
                  > > > Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they
                  > > > didn't have much reason to go further and usually stopped in China.
                  > > > During classical Japan, we have evidence of at least cultural contact
                  > > > as far West as Iran.
                  > >
                  > > I've always felt such claims were taking too much liberty with the
                  > evidence.
                  > > Transmittal of goods does not necessarily imply actual physical contact.
                  > If
                  > > I give you a book a friend of mine picked up on a trip to Egypt, it
                  > doesn't
                  > > mean *you* had contact with Egypt, nor even that *I* had contact with
                  > Egypt.
                  > > Persian goods in the Shosoin are exactly the same way; exotic goods were
                  > > being traded back and forth along the silk road, and while I have no
                  > doubts
                  > > that the merchandise may have travelled, I doubt very strongly actual
                  > > Japanese people went there to get them. That's the nature of mercantilism;
                  > > things are made and shipped.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Effingham
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Elaine Koogler
                  I ve had a Japanese personna who is staying in England with friends made when the lord of the household came to Japan for many, many years. I haven t really
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                    I've had a Japanese personna who is staying in England with friends made
                    when
                    the lord of the household came to Japan for many, many years. I haven't
                    really
                    had any problems with it. If Japanese made it as far as Rome, it's not
                    too much
                    of a stretch to imagine that they might have made it to England.


                    Kiri

                    Ash Smith wrote:

                    > The reason I ask is because the household I am hoping to become part of is
                    > mostly late period Celts, and I was wondering if there would be a way to
                    > explain why the heck I was with them... not really important, but would be
                    > neat if I could weave some story about getting lost from my group on a
                    > voyage , ended up with these guys, etc etc.
                    >
                    > Failing that I suppose I can just do the whole household/persona seperation
                    > thing that so many people do :)
                    >
                    > -- Ash
                    > Yeah though I w
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                    > To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:52 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] First Japanese contact with Europe?
                    >
                    > > Barbara Nostrand wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Noble Cousin!
                    > > >
                    > > > Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were
                    > > > Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they
                    > > > didn't have much reason to go further and usually stopped in China.
                    > > > During classical Japan, we have evidence of at least cultural contact
                    > > > as far West as Iran.
                    > >
                    > > I've always felt such claims were taking too much liberty with the
                    > evidence.
                    > > Transmittal of goods does not necessarily imply actual physical contact.
                    > If
                    > > I give you a book a friend of mine picked up on a trip to Egypt, it
                    > doesn't
                    > > mean *you* had contact with Egypt, nor even that *I* had contact with
                    > Egypt.
                    > > Persian goods in the Shosoin are exactly the same way; exotic goods were
                    > > being traded back and forth along the silk road, and while I have no
                    > doubts
                    > > that the merchandise may have travelled, I doubt very strongly actual
                    > > Japanese people went there to get them. That's the nature of mercantilism;
                    > > things are made and shipped.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Effingham
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I recall, in this case it was transmittal of artistic style with the painting in question being firmly attached to
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                      Baron Edward!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      > > Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were
                      > > Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they
                      > > didn't have much reason to go further and usually stopped in China.
                      > > During classical Japan, we have evidence of at least cultural contact
                      > > as far West as Iran.
                      >
                      >I've always felt such claims were taking too much liberty with the evidence.
                      >Transmittal of goods does not necessarily imply actual physical contact.

                      As I recall, in this case it was transmittal of artistic style with the
                      painting in question being firmly attached to something Japanese like
                      the wall of a building. Goods made it back and forth between England and
                      Japan. As I recall, we do know from other cultural sources that even
                      people were making it to Japan from India. For that matter, the oceanic
                      trade routes from East Africa to the China Sea are pretty well documented
                      with Ibn Batuta traveling from Morocco to China and back.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
                      --
                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                    • Barbara Nostrand
                      Noble Cousin! The best approach is simply not to worry about how members of a household which is not highly themed met. Some of your celts may be from
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        The best approach is simply not to worry about how members of a household
                        which is not highly themed met. Some of your celts may be from different
                        centuries.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar
                        --
                        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... (Putting on the historian hat here...) The terms late period and Celt are mutually exclusive, you know. ... Fraid not. ... The path of least
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                          Ash Smith wrote:

                          > The reason I ask is because the household I am hoping to become part of is
                          > mostly late period Celts,

                          (Putting on the historian hat here...)

                          The terms "late period" and "Celt" are mutually exclusive, you know. <G>

                          > and I was wondering if there would be a way to
                          > explain why the heck I was with them... not really important, but would be
                          > neat if I could weave some story about getting lost from my group on a
                          > voyage , ended up with these guys, etc etc.
                          >

                          Fraid not. <G>

                          >
                          > Failing that I suppose I can just do the whole household/persona seperation
                          > thing that so many people do :)

                          The path of least resistance. There is *much* to be said for it. <GGG>

                          Effingham
                        • Nate Ledbetter
                          Kiri-dono: If Japanese made it as ... I have to humbly disagree with this statement. We know exactly who went to Rome, why they went (they were catholics, sent
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                            Kiri-dono:

                            If Japanese made it as
                            > far as Rome, it's not
                            > too much
                            > of a stretch to imagine that they might have made it
                            > to England.

                            I have to humbly disagree with this statement. We know
                            exactly who went to Rome, why they went (they were
                            catholics, sent as emissaries to the Pope by their
                            Daimyo families), where they went (Rome, with stopoffs
                            in Spain)and when they returned. Physically there
                            seems to be no reason why they wouldn't have been
                            capable of going to England, but they wouldn't have.
                            Japan had no documented contact with England until
                            1600, and then it was very little, and there was no
                            interest ever expressed by any Japanese in going
                            there. They simply didn't enthrall the Japanese like
                            the Southern Barbarians did.

                            I don't mean to criticize your persona at all--far
                            from it. It sounds like you've got a fairly good
                            reason for being where you are. However, to merely
                            echo those who I have heard debate this topic before
                            on this very list, there really isn't any reason to
                            have a reason to be anywhere. You aren't in England,
                            you aren't in Italy, you're in Atlantia, or the
                            Midlands, or wherever. There is no more reason for a
                            Viking to be there than a Nihonjin.

                            I like Fujiwara-dono's story the best...she stepped
                            off of her oxcart one day and happened to be in the
                            Known World. I myself don't have an explanation story.
                            I'm here. That's good enough for this simple
                            Owarimono.

                            Shonaigawa

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do You Yahoo!?
                            Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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                          • Susan and Frank Downs
                            This strikes me as *way* above and beyond the call of duty. The extreme conclusion of this way of thinking would have us changing garb for each group of
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                              This strikes me as *way* above and beyond the call of duty. The extreme
                              conclusion of this way of thinking would have us changing garb for each
                              group of people we wanted to hang out with. If you want to do it, knock
                              yourself out, but don't expect me to lug around (or even store) more than
                              one suit of armor -- much less maintain them, ugh! All persona stories are
                              going to degenerate to absurdity at some point ("My kinju helped me into my
                              best doublet so I could go swear fealty to King Olaf and Queen Juanita after
                              they received the crowns from Xerxes and Elizabeth"). You have to either
                              ignore it and just play the game or resort to voodoo historical science
                              fiction. Paraphrasing another response, these are the *current* Middle
                              Ages, not a reenactment of any real medieval realm, and apparently there are
                              samurai here as well as centurians, landsknechts, vikings, mongols,spartans,
                              celts, cossacks, zulus and even occaisional star-crossed cavaliers, and
                              everyone pretty much gets along. I'm not going to try to explain it, if you
                              want to, feel free; I'm just going to enjoy the diversity, the company, the
                              food and a little friendly violence. It ain't exactly bushido, but on the
                              other hand, I don't have to practice iaijutsu on every gaijin who bumps into
                              my saya.
                              --
                              Takenoshita Naro
                              Frank Downs

                              >
                              > Subject: Re: First Japanese contact with Europe?
                              >
                              > Ack! I would definitely recommend against trying to come up with a far
                              > fetched
                              > (if not totally impossible) persona story that explains your presence in a
                              > Celtic household. If you want to be part of a Celtic themed household,
                              > there's
                              > nothing in the "rules" of our game that says you cannot have a seperate
                              > persona
                              > that fits in with that group in addition to your Japanese persona.
                              > Personally,
                              > I belong to a household that dresses and fights in the mode of ancient Sparta
                              > ... so I have a Spartan persona (and the armor and garb to match) for wars and
                              > other events in which I am part of that group. However, when I am wandering
                              > around Pennsic shopping, or I am fighting solo, or I get dressed up for
                              > something, you are much more likely to see me in my sengoku jidai get up. It
                              > is
                              > far better, in my opinion, to have a split persona(lity), than to be massively
                              > historically improbable.
                              >
                              > Sakurakawa
                            • Barbara Nostrand
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The problem is the Reformation. The English were not getting along too well with the Italians or the Spanish right then.
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig! The problem is the Reformation. The English were
                                not getting along too well with the Italians or the Spanish right then.
                                The English did establish a trading colony in Japan early in the 17th
                                century, but it was later abandoned.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar
                                --
                                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                              • Anthony J. Bryant
                                ... You know, I can paint a pretty good scroll stylistically identical with 15th C. Flemish school painting -- doesn t mean I was ever in Flanders. It means
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                  Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                  > Baron Edward!
                                  >
                                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                                  >
                                  > > > Greetings from Solveig! You can speculate all you want. There were
                                  > > > Japanese as far West as Say India during the Heian period, but they
                                  > > > didn't have much reason to go further and usually stopped in China.
                                  > > > During classical Japan, we have evidence of at least cultural contact
                                  > > > as far West as Iran.
                                  > >
                                  > >I've always felt such claims were taking too much liberty with the evidence.
                                  > >Transmittal of goods does not necessarily imply actual physical contact.
                                  >
                                  > As I recall, in this case it was transmittal of artistic style with the
                                  > painting in question being firmly attached to something Japanese like
                                  > the wall of a building.

                                  You know, I can paint a pretty good scroll stylistically identical with 15th C.
                                  Flemish school painting -- doesn't mean I was ever in Flanders. It means I've
                                  seen stuff *from* Flanders.

                                  > Goods made it back and forth between England and
                                  > Japan.

                                  But not until the 17th century.

                                  > As I recall, we do know from other cultural sources that even
                                  > people were making it to Japan from India.

                                  Very, VERY rarely. It was the very rare monk that went to India instead of China
                                  to study Buddhism.

                                  > For that matter, the oceanic
                                  > trade routes from East Africa to the China Sea are pretty well documented
                                  > with Ibn Batuta traveling from Morocco to China and back.

                                  And Spaniards went all the way from Iberia to the Norte Americano west. That has
                                  nothing to do with Japanese traveling anywhere. They're totally unrelated
                                  points.


                                  Effingham
                                • Barbara Nostrand
                                  Noble Cousins! Bill the Bard solved the problem hundreds of years ago in his play The Tempest. Some sort of violent accident occurred and we all happen to be
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                    Noble Cousins!

                                    Bill the Bard solved the problem hundreds of years ago in his play
                                    "The Tempest." Some sort of violent accident occurred and we all happen
                                    to be here together out of contact with our respective countries of origin.
                                    The English and French can go huff and puff all they want, but they are
                                    just as fundamentally anachronistic and out of sync with each other as
                                    we are.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar
                                    --
                                    +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                                  • Steve
                                    I am from 1335 Kyoto, my Wife is 600 AD pict, we never bothered to justify that, because as was already statred, we are in the midrelm NOT Europe. Kyoto
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                      I am from 1335 Kyoto, my Wife is 600 AD pict, we never bothered to
                                      justify that, because as was already statred, we are in the midrelm NOT
                                      Europe.

                                      Kyoto
                                    • Elaine Koogler
                                      I understand. Note that I said imagine ....and that s what I have done. I have never claimed that it really happened...just that it could have! I think
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                        I understand. Note that I said "imagine"....and that's what I have done. I
                                        have never claimed that it really happened...just that it could have! I
                                        think that's one of the great things about the SCA...we each can choose a
                                        persona story that suits us. I know it's not historically accurate, or at
                                        least I don't have any documentation to prove that they got to England.
                                        However, I can "imagine" that they might have. And I have made it clear to
                                        all who have asked about my persona story that it is something I have created
                                        out of my rather overactive imagination.

                                        Kiri

                                        Nate Ledbetter wrote:

                                        > Kiri-dono:
                                        >
                                        > If Japanese made it as
                                        > > far as Rome, it's not
                                        > > too much
                                        > > of a stretch to imagine that they might have made it
                                        > > to England.
                                        >
                                        > I have to humbly disagree with this statement. We know
                                        > exactly who went to Rome, why they went (they were
                                        > catholics, sent as emissaries to the Pope by their
                                        > Daimyo families), where they went (Rome, with stopoffs
                                        > in Spain)and when they returned. Physically there
                                        > seems to be no reason why they wouldn't have been
                                        > capable of going to England, but they wouldn't have.
                                        > Japan had no documented contact with England until
                                        > 1600, and then it was very little, and there was no
                                        > interest ever expressed by any Japanese in going
                                        > there. They simply didn't enthrall the Japanese like
                                        > the Southern Barbarians did.
                                        >
                                        > I don't mean to criticize your persona at all--far
                                        > from it. It sounds like you've got a fairly good
                                        > reason for being where you are. However, to merely
                                        > echo those who I have heard debate this topic before
                                        > on this very list, there really isn't any reason to
                                        > have a reason to be anywhere. You aren't in England,
                                        > you aren't in Italy, you're in Atlantia, or the
                                        > Midlands, or wherever. There is no more reason for a
                                        > Viking to be there than a Nihonjin.
                                        >
                                        > I like Fujiwara-dono's story the best...she stepped
                                        > off of her oxcart one day and happened to be in the
                                        > Known World. I myself don't have an explanation story.
                                        > I'm here. That's good enough for this simple
                                        > Owarimono.
                                        >
                                        > Shonaigawa
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________
                                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                                        > http://personals.yahoo.com
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >
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                                      • Ash Smith
                                        Yes, it is the society for *Creative* *Anachronisms* And they certainly COULD have made it to any part of Europe really. --Ash Yeh though I walk through the
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                          Yes, it is the society for *Creative* *Anachronisms*
                                          And they certainly COULD have made it to any part of Europe really.

                                          --Ash

                                          Yeh though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
                                          For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler@...>
                                          To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:26 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] First Japanese contact with Europe?


                                          > I understand. Note that I said "imagine"....and that's what I have done.
                                          I
                                          > have never claimed that it really happened...just that it could have! I
                                          > think that's one of the great things about the SCA...we each can choose a
                                          > persona story that suits us. I know it's not historically accurate, or at
                                          > least I don't have any documentation to prove that they got to England.
                                          > However, I can "imagine" that they might have. And I have made it clear
                                          to
                                          > all who have asked about my persona story that it is something I have
                                          created
                                          > out of my rather overactive imagination.
                                          >
                                          > Kiri
                                          >
                                          > Nate Ledbetter wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Kiri-dono:
                                          > >
                                          > > If Japanese made it as
                                          > > > far as Rome, it's not
                                          > > > too much
                                          > > > of a stretch to imagine that they might have made it
                                          > > > to England.
                                          > >
                                          > > I have to humbly disagree with this statement. We know
                                          > > exactly who went to Rome, why they went (they were
                                          > > catholics, sent as emissaries to the Pope by their
                                          > > Daimyo families), where they went (Rome, with stopoffs
                                          > > in Spain)and when they returned. Physically there
                                          > > seems to be no reason why they wouldn't have been
                                          > > capable of going to England, but they wouldn't have.
                                          > > Japan had no documented contact with England until
                                          > > 1600, and then it was very little, and there was no
                                          > > interest ever expressed by any Japanese in going
                                          > > there. They simply didn't enthrall the Japanese like
                                          > > the Southern Barbarians did.
                                          > >
                                          > > I don't mean to criticize your persona at all--far
                                          > > from it. It sounds like you've got a fairly good
                                          > > reason for being where you are. However, to merely
                                          > > echo those who I have heard debate this topic before
                                          > > on this very list, there really isn't any reason to
                                          > > have a reason to be anywhere. You aren't in England,
                                          > > you aren't in Italy, you're in Atlantia, or the
                                          > > Midlands, or wherever. There is no more reason for a
                                          > > Viking to be there than a Nihonjin.
                                          > >
                                          > > I like Fujiwara-dono's story the best...she stepped
                                          > > off of her oxcart one day and happened to be in the
                                          > > Known World. I myself don't have an explanation story.
                                          > > I'm here. That's good enough for this simple
                                          > > Owarimono.
                                          > >
                                          > > Shonaigawa
                                          > >
                                          > > __________________________________________________
                                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                          > > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                                          > > http://personals.yahoo.com
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Barbara Nostrand
                                          Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! And you have cultural contact with Flanders. You don t have to personally go to Flanders in order to achieve this. I was
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                            Baron Edward!

                                            Greetings from Solveig! And you have cultural contact with Flanders.
                                            You don't have to personally go to Flanders in order to achieve this.
                                            I was not basing the statement about goods making it back and forth
                                            on the 17th century English trade mission. Rather, somebody else found
                                            stuff in England a couple of years ago. There was this thing called
                                            the "Silk Road" remember? Stuff made it back and forth across
                                            Eurasia. The people doing the hauling did not necessarily make the
                                            entire trip with the goods being traded.

                                            Someone was asking about trying to have some sort of Western contact.
                                            I was exploring the limits of such possibilities. I am not saying
                                            that we have stamped passport books for people going farther West
                                            than India. If you will reread my original posting, I used the word
                                            "speculate" in it and then went on to say that persona story speculation
                                            is unnecessary.

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar
                                            --
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                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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                                          • Ron Martino
                                            ... Actually they are not. It s just that a late period Celt is one from around the end of the time period that folks were actually still called Celtic
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                              "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
                                              >

                                              > The terms "late period" and "Celt" are mutually exclusive, you know. <G>

                                              Actually they are not. It's just that a 'late period Celt' is one from
                                              around the end of the time period that folks were actually still called
                                              'Celtic' instead of Irish, or Scottish, or whatever.

                                              In other words, 'late period' for them, 'early period' to the rest of
                                              us...

                                              --

                                              yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
                                            • Ron Martino
                                              ... Unfortunately, some folks allow their imaginations to grow quite out of all reason, and end up with stories that are entirely too outrageous. It s one
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                                > I understand. Note that I said "imagine"....and that's what I have done. I
                                                > have never claimed that it really happened...just that it could have! I
                                                > think that's one of the great things about the SCA...we each can choose a
                                                > persona story that suits us. I know it's not historically accurate, or at
                                                > least I don't have any documentation to prove that they got to England.
                                                > However, I can "imagine" that they might have. And I have made it clear to
                                                > all who have asked about my persona story that it is something I have created
                                                > out of my rather overactive imagination.
                                                >
                                                > Kiri

                                                Unfortunately, some folks allow their imaginations to grow quite out of
                                                all reason, and end up with stories that are entirely too outrageous.
                                                It's one thing to tell the story of Sinbad the Sailor and all the
                                                unbelievable things he did, it's quite another to claim in all
                                                seriousness to have done them yourself. Someone who did so would be
                                                presumed mad, or a complete liar. At best.

                                                I do not intend to judge whether or not this applies to /your/ story;
                                                rather I present it as cautionary advice to all and sundry.

                                                Yumitori
                                                --

                                                yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
                                              • Ron Martino
                                                ... Properly, it s Anachronism , singular. And, yes, they could have traveled to anywhere in Europe. They could have built an armada and conquered the entire
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                                  Ash Smith wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Yes, it is the society for *Creative* *Anachronisms*
                                                  > And they certainly COULD have made it to any part of Europe really.
                                                  >
                                                  > --Ash

                                                  Properly, it's 'Anachronism', singular. And, yes, they could have
                                                  traveled to anywhere in Europe. They could have built an armada and
                                                  conquered the entire continent, they could have invented flying machines
                                                  and microwave ovens. There's no reason 'they' could not have done any
                                                  number of things. We, after all, are simply 'them' after they
                                                  accomplished many of these possibilities. I understand that you are
                                                  arguing only for a wider distribution of Nihonjin than really occurred,
                                                  but too easily such a discussion can begin to turn into the 'they would
                                                  have used it if they had it' argument.

                                                  The point is, we are trying for a specific (if broad) time period, and
                                                  only certain things actually occurred during it. If we bring all of the
                                                  other possibilities in, then we've lost what little focus we do have.
                                                  Really, as others have pointed out, you /don't/ need to justify Japanese
                                                  in England, because your English (Celtic, Scottish, Pictish,
                                                  Anglo-Saxon, Norse, etc.) friends aren't living there currently either.
                                                  They are living in the Laurel Kingdoms, wherever the heck that is, and
                                                  if someone gives you grief about Japanese not making it to such-and-such
                                                  a place in Europe, you can /politely/ look them in the eye and say, 'But
                                                  we're not in Europe, now, are we?'

                                                  Yumitori, not in Europe either...
                                                  --

                                                  yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com
                                                • Nate Ledbetter
                                                  Kiri-dono: And that s totally cool...I just cringe when I start to hear the I was captured by pirates who dumped me off in the ocean and then I was rescued by
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                                    Kiri-dono:

                                                    And that's totally cool...I just cringe when I start
                                                    to hear the "I was captured by pirates who dumped me
                                                    off in the ocean and then I was rescued by a viking
                                                    longboat, lived with them until they raided the coast
                                                    of England and I got left behind, met a wandering
                                                    Irishman who took me in....and that's why I wear a
                                                    kilt with my kosode and a viking helmet when I fight."

                                                    Painful.

                                                    Shonaigawa

                                                    --- Elaine Koogler <ekoogler@...> wrote:
                                                    > I understand. Note that I said "imagine"....and
                                                    > that's what I have done. I
                                                    > have never claimed that it really happened...just
                                                    > that it could have! I
                                                    > think that's one of the great things about the
                                                    > SCA...we each can choose a
                                                    > persona story that suits us. I know it's not
                                                    > historically accurate, or at
                                                    > least I don't have any documentation to prove that
                                                    > they got to England.
                                                    > However, I can "imagine" that they might have. And
                                                    > I have made it clear to
                                                    > all who have asked about my persona story that it is
                                                    > something I have created
                                                    > out of my rather overactive imagination.
                                                    >
                                                    > Kiri
                                                    >


                                                    __________________________________________________
                                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                                    Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
                                                    http://personals.yahoo.com
                                                  • kujika@aol.com
                                                    for the love of ___________ (fill in the blank with the word or words of your chouse) just get alonge
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                                      for the love of ___________ (fill in the blank with the word or words of your chouse) just get alonge
                                                    • Markejag@aol.com
                                                      Adding more fuel to the fire, Now if I can find my reference, In the late 16th century France, they did have some maki-e lacquered, paper-maiche endtables and
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Nov 10, 2001
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                                                        Adding more fuel to the fire,

                                                        Now if I can find my reference, In the late 16th century France, they did have some maki-e lacquered, paper-maiche endtables and trays of Japanese origin.
                                                        You did not have to go to Japan to get them, but if you had money $$$, you could get them to come to you.  Oh and by the way, this did spark a big interest in paper-maiche products by the 17th century, which died out by the end of the 17th century.

                                                        Bun-ami


                                                        Someone was asking about trying to have some sort of Western contact.
                                                        I was exploring the limits of such possibilities. I am not saying
                                                        that we have stamped passport books for people going farther West
                                                        than India. If you will reread my original posting, I used the word
                                                        "speculate" in it and then went on to say that persona story speculation
                                                        is unnecessary.

                                                                           Your Humble Servant
                                                                           Solveig Throndardottir
                                                                           Amateur Scholar


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