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Too un-period?

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  • Ash Smith
    I found this really neat looking silk brocade for sale... it s certainly flashy enough for my period but does anyone think this is too cliché/unperiod?
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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      I found this really neat looking silk brocade for sale... it's certainly
      flashy enough for my period but does anyone think this is too
      cliché/unperiod?

      http://www.silkxpress.com/b-bluedragon.jpg


      --Ash

      Yeh though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
      For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Hm. Readers Digest version: It s very Chinese (for the picky folks, count the dragons toes). I don t know that I d recommend a mere Japanese mortal wear
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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        Ash Smith wrote:

        > I found this really neat looking silk brocade for sale... it's certainly
        > flashy enough for my period but does anyone think this is too
        > clich/unperiod?
        >
        > http://www.silkxpress.com/b-bluedragon.jpg

        Hm.

        Readers' Digest version:

        It's very Chinese (for the picky folks, count the dragons' toes).

        I don't know that I'd recommend a mere Japanese mortal wear something like
        this with dragons all over it. I can't point to anything specific, but it
        smacks of Chinese Imperial Something.

        Damn pretty, though.

        Effingham
      • Ash Smith
        Ok... so in otherwords it s iffy? hehe I suppose if I really wanted to wear it I could say my persona traveled a lot and got it from China. Or some such :) On
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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          Ok... so in otherwords it's iffy? hehe
          I suppose if I really wanted to wear it I could say my persona traveled a
          lot and got it from China.
          Or some such :)

          On the other hand... as I've heard said on here before... most people aren't
          going to know anyway.
          But I would... ah well back to looking for more simple patterns :)

          Which reminds me... anyone know a good source of period-like silks/washable
          silks/rayon ?

          --Ash

          Yeh though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
          For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Anthony J. Bryant <ajbryant@...>
          To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:31 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Too un-period?


          > Ash Smith wrote:
          >
          > > I found this really neat looking silk brocade for sale... it's certainly
          > > flashy enough for my period but does anyone think this is too
          > > clich/unperiod?
          > >
          > > http://www.silkxpress.com/b-bluedragon.jpg
          >
          > Hm.
          >
          > Readers' Digest version:
          >
          > It's very Chinese (for the picky folks, count the dragons' toes).
          >
          > I don't know that I'd recommend a mere Japanese mortal wear something like
          > this with dragons all over it. I can't point to anything specific, but it
          > smacks of Chinese Imperial Something.
          >
          > Damn pretty, though.
          >
          > Effingham
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Don Luby
          ... Well, I get mine from www.jacquardproducts.com; the habotai and the fuji broadcloth do me just fine. ... Koredono
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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            On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Ash Smith wrote:

            > Which reminds me... anyone know a good source of period-like
            > silks/washable silks/rayon ?

            Well, I get mine from www.jacquardproducts.com; the habotai and the
            fuji broadcloth do me just fine.

            > --Ash


            Koredono
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Actually, it might sound near blasphemous for such neat fabric, but if I had a few yards of that I d make the fabric bits for a top-line Japanese armour.
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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              Ash Smith wrote:

              > Ok... so in otherwords it's iffy? hehe
              > I suppose if I really wanted to wear it I could say my persona traveled a
              > lot and got it from China.
              > Or some such :)
              >

              Actually, it might sound near blasphemous for such neat fabric, but if I had a few yards of that I'd
              make the fabric bits for a top-line Japanese armour. It's nice fancy brocade that would do better in
              small quantities where the details can't be that closely made out.

              >
              > On the other hand... as I've heard said on here before... most people aren't
              > going to know anyway.
              > But I would... ah well back to looking for more simple patterns :)
              >

              <G>

              >
              > Which reminds me... anyone know a good source of period-like silks/washable
              > silks/rayon ?
              >

              Yes, but horrendously expensive. Enough silk to make a kariginu would cost between 400 and 800 dollars.
              You can get tetron for about half or 2/3 that cost.

              Effingham
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Noble Ash! That is a beautiful Chinese brocade. The Japanese did have Chinese brocades available to them. What you need to do is be selective in how you use
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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                Noble Ash!

                That is a beautiful Chinese brocade. The Japanese did have Chinese
                brocades available to them. What you need to do is be selective in
                how you use it. My first impulse would be to make a karaginu out of
                it.

                I don't think that we need to worry overly much about counting the
                toes on the dragons in Japan. The Japanese did use dragon motifs
                on various things such as iron kettles. I have a rather nice
                unryuugama. There are a few specific patterns which were borrowed
                from China that have specific meaning within the context of the
                Heian court. I do not believe that this Chinese pattern is one of
                them. The real question is whether or not you could have gotten
                such fabric in period. You may want to ask the Chinese mailing
                list about it. mailto:SCA-China@yahoogroups.com

                Note. While dragons are quite unusual in Japanese kamon, they are
                used. The Takashi branch of the Genji and the Tamura branch
                of the Saka'no'ue as well as other families use a dragon as
                their kamon. So if you must try to explain the cloth, simply
                claim a connection with the Genji. Since the Minamoto were
                handing out clan memberships like gum drops during the Genpei
                war, this is really easy to do as long as you are from the
                Kamakura period or later. Since Minamoto was a very popular
                surname to stick on excess imperial children, there were a
                lot of them wandering around even before the Genpei war.

                Note. In Japan, the dragon is viewed as a water god and especially
                a sea god. The dragon is associated with rain. In China, the
                dragon motif appears on the court costume of the crown prince.
                This is why fanciful trips to China do not help your case
                for using this cloth. The Japanese do not appear to have been
                overly concerned with toe counting and make no mention of it
                in discussing dragons. Toe counting IS a big deal with the
                Chinese and has been avidly discussed on the Chinese mailing
                list.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
                --
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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              • Ash Smith
                Thank you, I was thinking of making a hitatare with silvery tassels from it. And a black kataginu and hakama to go with. Also, I have about 5 yards of a gold
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 30, 2001
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                  Thank you, I was thinking of making a hitatare with silvery tassels from it.
                  And a black kataginu and hakama to go with.

                  Also, I have about 5 yards of a gold material with white orchids on it (the
                  orchids have purple "tips" to them)

                  Looking at the period designs it seems quite modern, but it's OH so pretty
                  hehe. What say you about detailed orchids?

                  --Ash

                  Yeh though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
                  For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...>
                  To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:07 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Too un-period?


                  > Noble Ash!
                  >
                  > That is a beautiful Chinese brocade. The Japanese did have Chinese
                  > brocades available to them. What you need to do is be selective in
                  > how you use it. My first impulse would be to make a karaginu out of
                  > it.
                  >
                  > I don't think that we need to worry overly much about counting the
                  > toes on the dragons in Japan. The Japanese did use dragon motifs
                  > on various things such as iron kettles. I have a rather nice
                  > unryuugama. There are a few specific patterns which were borrowed
                  > from China that have specific meaning within the context of the
                  > Heian court. I do not believe that this Chinese pattern is one of
                  > them. The real question is whether or not you could have gotten
                  > such fabric in period. You may want to ask the Chinese mailing
                  > list about it. mailto:SCA-China@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Note. While dragons are quite unusual in Japanese kamon, they are
                  > used. The Takashi branch of the Genji and the Tamura branch
                  > of the Saka'no'ue as well as other families use a dragon as
                  > their kamon. So if you must try to explain the cloth, simply
                  > claim a connection with the Genji. Since the Minamoto were
                  > handing out clan memberships like gum drops during the Genpei
                  > war, this is really easy to do as long as you are from the
                  > Kamakura period or later. Since Minamoto was a very popular
                  > surname to stick on excess imperial children, there were a
                  > lot of them wandering around even before the Genpei war.
                  >
                  > Note. In Japan, the dragon is viewed as a water god and especially
                  > a sea god. The dragon is associated with rain. In China, the
                  > dragon motif appears on the court costume of the crown prince.
                  > This is why fanciful trips to China do not help your case
                  > for using this cloth. The Japanese do not appear to have been
                  > overly concerned with toe counting and make no mention of it
                  > in discussing dragons. Toe counting IS a big deal with the
                  > Chinese and has been avidly discussed on the Chinese mailing
                  > list.
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                  > --
                  > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                  > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  > | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  > | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
                  > | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
                  > | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
                  > | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
                  > | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
                  > | techie.com, msn.com |
                  > +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  >
                  >
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Elaine Koogler
                  Yeah....the dragons do have 5 toes, which means that they are Imperial dragons in China. As I understand it, most depictions of dragons in Japan showed them
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                    Yeah....the dragons do have 5 toes, which means that they are Imperial dragons
                    in China. As I understand it, most depictions of dragons in Japan showed them
                    with 3 claws. So I would regard it as a little "iffy".

                    Kiri

                    "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:

                    > Ash Smith wrote:
                    >
                    > > I found this really neat looking silk brocade for sale... it's certainly
                    > > flashy enough for my period but does anyone think this is too
                    > > clich/unperiod?
                    > >
                    > > http://www.silkxpress.com/b-bluedragon.jpg
                    >
                    > Hm.
                    >
                    > Readers' Digest version:
                    >
                    > It's very Chinese (for the picky folks, count the dragons' toes).
                    >
                    > I don't know that I'd recommend a mere Japanese mortal wear something like
                    > this with dragons all over it. I can't point to anything specific, but it
                    > smacks of Chinese Imperial Something.
                    >
                    > Damn pretty, though.
                    >
                    > Effingham
                    >
                    >
                    > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Elaine Koogler
                    No, you probably couldn t say that. Fabrics like this would not have been available to the general public as such dragons were reserved for the Emperor
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                      No, you probably couldn't say that. Fabrics like this would not have been available to the general
                      public as such dragons were reserved for the Emperor himself.

                      Kiri

                      Ash Smith wrote:

                      > Ok... so in otherwords it's iffy? hehe
                      > I suppose if I really wanted to wear it I could say my persona traveled a
                      > lot and got it from China.
                      > Or some such :)
                      >
                      > On the other hand... as I've heard said on here before... most people aren't
                      > going to know anyway.
                      > But I would... ah well back to looking for more simple patterns :)
                      >
                      > Which reminds me... anyone know a good source of period-like silks/washable
                      > silks/rayon ?
                      >
                      > --Ash
                      >
                      > Yeh though I walk through the valley of the bovine, I shall fear no pucky.
                      > For the enemy is but smelly shit underfoot.
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Anthony J. Bryant <ajbryant@...>
                      > To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:31 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Too un-period?
                      >
                      > > Ash Smith wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > I found this really neat looking silk brocade for sale... it's certainly
                      > > > flashy enough for my period but does anyone think this is too
                      > > > clich/unperiod?
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.silkxpress.com/b-bluedragon.jpg
                      > >
                      > > Hm.
                      > >
                      > > Readers' Digest version:
                      > >
                      > > It's very Chinese (for the picky folks, count the dragons' toes).
                      > >
                      > > I don't know that I'd recommend a mere Japanese mortal wear something like
                      > > this with dragons all over it. I can't point to anything specific, but it
                      > > smacks of Chinese Imperial Something.
                      > >
                      > > Damn pretty, though.
                      > >
                      > > Effingham
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Elaine Koogler
                      Yes, they are a good source...but, IIRC, you can only get white or maybe black, so you would have to dye it yourself...unless you want to be perpetually in
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                        Yes, they are a good source...but, IIRC, you can only get white or maybe
                        black, so you would have to dye it yourself...unless you want to be
                        perpetually in mourning!

                        Kiri

                        Don Luby wrote:

                        > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Ash Smith wrote:
                        >
                        > > Which reminds me... anyone know a good source of period-like
                        > > silks/washable silks/rayon ?
                        >
                        > Well, I get mine from www.jacquardproducts.com; the habotai and the
                        > fuji broadcloth do me just fine.
                        >
                        > > --Ash
                        >
                        > Koredono
                        >
                        >
                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Don Luby
                        ... Correct; they have black in the most common fabrics (45 noil, a few different weights of habotai, &c), and everything else is white. ... True - though for
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                          On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Elaine Koogler wrote:

                          > Yes, they are a good source...but, IIRC, you can only get white or
                          > maybe black,

                          Correct; they have black in the most common fabrics (45" noil, a few
                          different weights of habotai, &c), and everything else is white.

                          > so you would have to dye it yourself...unless you want to be
                          > perpetually in mourning!

                          True - though for underwear (kosode, shitagi, fundoshi, &c) white is
                          fine, and dyeing really isn't that tough: using their (admittedly
                          non-period, but resulting in period colors, and bleed-free) acid dyes,
                          it takes an hour or so to do one batch, and I do 6 yards per batch;
                          doing it yourself has the added advantage of being able to buy silk
                          cheaper in greater bulk, and then making it whatever color you want,
                          as you need it! Personally, I think it's quite a resonable deal, and
                          is primarily what I do these days (once, of course, I get through my
                          backstock of fabric :)

                          > Kiri


                          Koredono

                          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
                          djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                          Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... Generally, no metallic braid.... that s a poofy Japanese theatrical thing. While some fabric was metallized, the braid typically wasn t. ... Now I m
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                            Ash Smith wrote:

                            > Thank you, I was thinking of making a hitatare with silvery tassels from it.

                            Generally, no metallic braid.... that's a poofy Japanese theatrical thing. <G> While some fabric was
                            metallized, the braid typically wasn't.

                            >
                            > And a black kataginu and hakama to go with.
                            >

                            Now I'm confused. You don't wear a kataginu with a hitatare... and in the best of all possible worlds
                            the hiatatare and hakama would match.

                            The thing is, this is really *not* an appropriate fabric for making a kariginu out of.

                            In all reality, although it sounds extreme, using this fabric would be little different that using a
                            "stars and stripes" "camouflage" or "Christmas print" fabric. I'm using some rather extreme examples,
                            but I'm trying to get across that this is simply not a fabric that would have likely been used that
                            way. Just because it's an Asian design doesn't make it Japanese, nor does it make it suitable for a
                            specific garment. There is actually a large number of patterns specifically set for kariginu use.

                            It's *not* the type of brocade that was used in those garments. Fabrics for kariginu tended to be of
                            the conventional geometrics or repeating medallion (fusen) or repeating pattern (mongara) motif.

                            That there may be VERY few people in the SCA who will know it's not proper is one thing you may want to
                            consider; such detail on Japanese garb may not be something you want to worry about. But ask yourself
                            what you'd think of a Paisley Elizabethan or houpeland. We are perhaps more attuned to that sort of
                            thing, and would *know* it's wrong. This is the same thing.


                            >
                            > Also, I have about 5 yards of a gold material with white orchids on it (the
                            > orchids have purple "tips" to them)
                            >
                            > Looking at the period designs it seems quite modern, but it's OH so pretty
                            > hehe. What say you about detailed orchids?
                            >

                            Ummmm.... I don't think they had orchids.


                            Effingham
                          • Elaine Koogler
                            ... Plus (and I think this is even more important) you will be saying to people who don t know that this is correct...and possibly passing on information by
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                              "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:

                              > That there may be VERY few people in the SCA who will know it's not proper is one thing you may want to
                              > consider; such detail on Japanese garb may not be something you want to worry about. But ask yourself
                              > what you'd think of a Paisley Elizabethan or houpeland. We are perhaps more attuned to that sort of
                              > thing, and would *know* it's wrong. This is the same thing.

                              Plus (and I think this is even more important) you will be saying to people who don't know that this is
                              correct...and possibly passing on information by your example, that is incorrect. Admittedly, I don't
                              always use fabrics that are period (rayon, silk look-alikes, etc.), but I try to use fabrics that
                              approximate what would have been used in period by their patterning, feel, etc.

                              Kiri
                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... Very true. ... This is why I believe that look and feel are critical in much garb work. I agree with you. Effingham
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                Elaine Koogler wrote:

                                > "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
                                >
                                > > That there may be VERY few people in the SCA who will know it's not proper is one thing you may want to
                                > > consider; such detail on Japanese garb may not be something you want to worry about. But ask yourself
                                > > what you'd think of a Paisley Elizabethan or houpeland. We are perhaps more attuned to that sort of
                                > > thing, and would *know* it's wrong. This is the same thing.
                                >
                                > Plus (and I think this is even more important) you will be saying to people who don't know that this is
                                > correct...and possibly passing on information by your example, that is incorrect.

                                Very true.

                                > Admittedly, I don't
                                > always use fabrics that are period (rayon, silk look-alikes, etc.), but I try to use fabrics that
                                > approximate what would have been used in period by their patterning, feel, etc.
                                >

                                This is why I believe that look and feel are critical in much garb work. I agree with you.

                                Effingham
                              • Ash Smith
                                Okie Dokie :) -- Ash ... From: Anthony J. Bryant To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:44 AM Subject: Re:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                  Okie Dokie :)

                                  -- Ash

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                                  To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:44 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Too un-period?


                                  > Ash Smith wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Thank you, I was thinking of making a hitatare with silvery tassels from
                                  it.
                                  >
                                  > Generally, no metallic braid.... that's a poofy Japanese theatrical thing.
                                  <G> While some fabric was
                                  > metallized, the braid typically wasn't.
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > And a black kataginu and hakama to go with.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Now I'm confused. You don't wear a kataginu with a hitatare... and in the
                                  best of all possible worlds
                                  > the hiatatare and hakama would match.
                                  >
                                  > The thing is, this is really *not* an appropriate fabric for making a
                                  kariginu out of.
                                  >
                                  > In all reality, although it sounds extreme, using this fabric would be
                                  little different that using a
                                  > "stars and stripes" "camouflage" or "Christmas print" fabric. I'm using
                                  some rather extreme examples,
                                  > but I'm trying to get across that this is simply not a fabric that would
                                  have likely been used that
                                  > way. Just because it's an Asian design doesn't make it Japanese, nor does
                                  it make it suitable for a
                                  > specific garment. There is actually a large number of patterns
                                  specifically set for kariginu use.
                                  >
                                  > It's *not* the type of brocade that was used in those garments. Fabrics
                                  for kariginu tended to be of
                                  > the conventional geometrics or repeating medallion (fusen) or repeating
                                  pattern (mongara) motif.
                                  >
                                  > That there may be VERY few people in the SCA who will know it's not proper
                                  is one thing you may want to
                                  > consider; such detail on Japanese garb may not be something you want to
                                  worry about. But ask yourself
                                  > what you'd think of a Paisley Elizabethan or houpeland. We are perhaps
                                  more attuned to that sort of
                                  > thing, and would *know* it's wrong. This is the same thing.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Also, I have about 5 yards of a gold material with white orchids on it
                                  (the
                                  > > orchids have purple "tips" to them)
                                  > >
                                  > > Looking at the period designs it seems quite modern, but it's OH so
                                  pretty
                                  > > hehe. What say you about detailed orchids?
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Ummmm.... I don't think they had orchids.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Effingham
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                • James Eckman
                                  ... I ll check through some of my period paintings. They might have painted orchids even if they didn t have them since the orchid is one of the basic figures
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 31, 2001
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                                    > > Ummmm.... I don't think they had orchids.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Effingham

                                    I'll check through some of my period paintings. They might have painted
                                    orchids even if they didn't have them since the orchid is one of the
                                    basic figures in most (if not all) Chinese/Japanese painting schools.
                                    Period paintings might be a good source of patterns, though in most
                                    cases, I suspect the illustrations are too small to show much detail.

                                    If you're doing Sengoku or before, steer clear of those lovely ukyio-e!

                                    Jim Eckman
                                  • James Eckman
                                    Re: Too un-period? ... I checked some of my art references and the detailed (Northern) style comes to Japan fairly early on. You can have detailed paintings of
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 1, 2001
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                                      Re: Too un-period?

                                      > > Ummmm.... I don't think they had orchids.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Effingham

                                      I checked some of my art references and the detailed (Northern) style
                                      comes to Japan fairly early on. You can have detailed paintings of
                                      orchids if such painted decorations are appropriate. Note that this
                                      doesn't mean that Japan had orchids, they would have copied them as part
                                      of their learning to paint since the orchid is a basic brush stroke.
                                      There are also examples of Japanese artists painting what are obviously
                                      Chinese landscapes, once again they are copying works from China.

                                      This copying instead of painting from nature is actually one of the
                                      criticisms leveled at this school, later efforts were thought to be
                                      lifeless by some critics.

                                      This is the traditional way of learning, copying your master and other
                                      past masters until you are proficient enough to strike out on your own.
                                      By late Sengoku both the Northern and Southern styles are taught in
                                      Japan.

                                      Jim Eckman
                                    • Elaine Koogler
                                      I suspect that this was an outgrowth of the fact that the Japanese imported Chinese culture wholesale during various periods of their history. The concept of
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 2, 2001
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                                        I suspect that this was an outgrowth of the fact that the Japanese imported
                                        Chinese culture wholesale during various periods of their history. The
                                        concept of learning by copying the masters was very important in China...to
                                        the point that they published "The Mustard Seed Garden Manual of Painting" in
                                        the 16th century, which contained examples of work by the various masters of
                                        different items (grasses, bamboo, etc.) for the student to copy.

                                        Kiri

                                        James Eckman wrote:

                                        > Re: Too un-period?
                                        >
                                        > > > Ummmm.... I don't think they had orchids.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Effingham
                                        >
                                        > I checked some of my art references and the detailed (Northern) style
                                        > comes to Japan fairly early on. You can have detailed paintings of
                                        > orchids if such painted decorations are appropriate. Note that this
                                        > doesn't mean that Japan had orchids, they would have copied them as part
                                        > of their learning to paint since the orchid is a basic brush stroke.
                                        > There are also examples of Japanese artists painting what are obviously
                                        > Chinese landscapes, once again they are copying works from China.
                                        >
                                        > This copying instead of painting from nature is actually one of the
                                        > criticisms leveled at this school, later efforts were thought to be
                                        > lifeless by some critics.
                                        >
                                        > This is the traditional way of learning, copying your master and other
                                        > past masters until you are proficient enough to strike out on your own.
                                        > By late Sengoku both the Northern and Southern styles are taught in
                                        > Japan.
                                        >
                                        > Jim Eckman
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • mneumark@hotmail.com
                                        ... imported ... The ... China...to ... Painting in ... masters of ... It s extremely common in europe as well to copy the masters. In fact, to this day
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Nov 2, 2001
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                                          --- In sca-jml@y..., Elaine Koogler <ekoogler@c...> wrote:
                                          > I suspect that this was an outgrowth of the fact that the Japanese
                                          imported
                                          > Chinese culture wholesale during various periods of their history.
                                          The
                                          > concept of learning by copying the masters was very important in
                                          China...to
                                          > the point that they published "The Mustard Seed Garden Manual of
                                          Painting" in
                                          > the 16th century, which contained examples of work by the various
                                          masters of
                                          > different items (grasses, bamboo, etc.) for the student to copy.
                                          >

                                          It's extremely common in europe as well to "copy the masters." In
                                          fact, to this day they still make us pee on art students copy
                                          Michaelangelo and Carvaggio...all those o artists. I've personally
                                          found it very helpful. :)

                                          --Raku-o
                                        • Chris
                                          I know that in my field of expertise, electronic music (massively OOP here) I copy the sounds of the great keyboardists and see what I can come up with. And
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Nov 3, 2001
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                                            I know that in my field of expertise, electronic music (massively OOP here)
                                            I copy the sounds of the great keyboardists and see what I can come up with.
                                            And when I write music in Renaissance style, I mimic the style of Susato or
                                            Praetorius. However, when I write my own music, the only style I copy is my
                                            own.
                                            > It's extremely common in europe as well to "copy the masters." In
                                            > fact, to this day they still make us pee on art students copy
                                            > Michaelangelo and Carvaggio...all those o artists. I've personally
                                            > found it very helpful. :)
                                            >
                                            > --Raku-o
                                            Pee on art students? My my!

                                            Kinoshita Yoshimori

                                            .
                                          • James Eckman
                                            ... I did say it was art, con art ;) What can I say? I m a cranky old guy who likes art that s at least a little bit representational and I like my poetry to
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Nov 4, 2001
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                                              > From: Ron Martino <yumitori@...>

                                              > We're drifting off-topic, but I'll throw in my standard 'what is art?'
                                              > comments any way...
                                              >
                                              > I disagree with those who say 'such-and-such is not art'. Sure it is.

                                              I did say it was art, con art ;) What can I say? I'm a cranky old guy
                                              who likes art that's at least a little bit representational and I like
                                              my poetry to rhyme. What a dinosaur!

                                              This stuff of course exists in period, some of the ink splash paintings
                                              and super abstracted calligraphy that's unreadable are almost in the
                                              same category. Since many of the upper class in China set themselves up
                                              as the arbiters of taste, many of the schools that didn't fit the
                                              fashion were not successful and most of their works disappeared. In
                                              Japan they saved almost anything they received from China, so some of
                                              the older, less known schools are preserved there.

                                              For a very low brow take on the literati, see "The Flirting Scholar"
                                              with Gong Li. This may be the ONLY happy Gong Li film!

                                              Jim Eckman
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