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[SCA-JML] Re: Household name.

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... No, these are surnames. I specifically omitted placenames from the list. ... That is possible, but in cases like Ashikaga, it s marked as S,P (surname,
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 22, 1999
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      Barbara Nostrand wrote:
      Baron Edward!

      You are looking at Japanese place names. While a lot of Japanese
      family names are toponymic, this does not mean that all Japanese
      place names are going to appear as Japanese family names. Clan
      names are even more of a problem as we need to decide what we
      mean by a "clan". I am assuming that the original poster wants
      a "han" from the Sengoku period in which case they were generally
      (last I heard at least) family names.

      No, these are surnames. I specifically omitted placenames from the list.
       
      Now for your examples: Tsurugaoka, Tsuruzaki, Tsuruhara, Tsuruta,
      and Tsurumine. Where are you getting them from? Are you getting
      them from P. G. O'Neil? If so, these may be dating only from
      when myojigomen was promulgated during the Meiji Restoration.


      That is possible, but in cases like Ashikaga, it's marked as S,P (surname, place name). These were all S only.

      It doesn't matter when the name entered the lexicon, as far as I'm concerned. If it was a place in period, there's a legitimate chance a family could have settled there and taken the name. The only reason Ashikaga, S冦a, and so on are even surnames is that very reason.

      Effingham

    • Barbara Nostrand
      Baron Edward! I have a copy of the Concise Japanese Placename Dictionary. A LOT of Japanese placenames changed comparatively recently. Further, a lot of places
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 22, 1999
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        Baron Edward!

        I have a copy of the Concise Japanese Placename Dictionary.
        A LOT of Japanese placenames changed comparatively recently.
        Further, a lot of places were not necessarily even places
        back in 1600.

        Further, last I heard, the majority of Japanese surnames
        were derived in one way or another from myoden and as such
        were not necessarily simply just any old place name.

        P.G.O'Neil derived his names from the Tokyo telephone directory
        and similar sources. (See the introduction.) Who was it that
        was criticising people for wearing clothing dating from 1630?

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

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      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... True. Just to settle things, I took a trip to the library, and grabbed three random books. I didn t want to waste a whole evening on this, but did want to
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 23, 1999
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          Barbara Nostrand wrote:

          > Baron Edward!
          >
          > I have a copy of the Concise Japanese Placename Dictionary.
          > A LOT of Japanese placenames changed comparatively recently.
          > Further, a lot of places were not necessarily even places
          > back in 1600.

          True. Just to settle things, I took a trip to the library, and grabbed
          three random books. I didn't want to waste a whole evening on this, but did
          want to check.

          What I grabbed was the index of the Kadokawa Nihon Chimei Daijiten (with a
          huge 900-plus page volume for each prefecture), the Seimei Kakei Daijiten,
          and the Yoshikawa Kokushi Daijiten.

          This is what I found:

          a few historical surnames with Tsuru + geographical feature:

          Tsuruzawa Tomoshiro (d. 1749, a shamisen artist).
          Tsurumine Shigenobu (Edo era scholar).
          Tsuruse Chorokuro (a retainer of the Imagawa)
          Tsuruzawa Tangei (Edo era scholar)
          Tsuruya (Crane Valley!) Tohachi, a jiuta master.

          There are a pile more, but they are musicians and artists of the Edo
          period. I'm assuming that scholars were samurai, and as such, their names
          were probably older than they were.

          Place names with tsuru + valley:

          Let's just say there were several.

          Two that stuck out were Tsurugadani (an archaic form), and Tsurugai, an
          interesting reading of Tsuru (ga) ya, or crane valley.

          Tsurugai, in Fukushima, was referred to by this name as early as the
          Nanbokucho period. The Soma settled near there (and I've been there, as
          it's near Haragamachi, my favorite town in N. Japan!). The Soma referred to
          the place as Tsurugaya in 1393. Later, it was named Tsurugadani. In the
          Meiji era, it was formally renamed Tsurugadanimura, and is referred to by
          the locals (as I knew them) as Tsurugadani. They probably still think of
          the place as Tsurugai, at least during the Nomaoi festival. <G>

          At any rate, we DO have references for a period place called Tsurugadani,
          and references to early names of Tsuruya, which has the same kanji.

          > Further, last I heard, the majority of Japanese surnames
          > were derived in one way or another from myoden and as such
          > were not necessarily simply just any old place name.

          It doesn't matter. The idea is to create a name that is CONSISTENT with
          period naming practice. It was quite common for a family to derive their
          name from the land they held. This has been demonstrated by families both
          great and small: the Soma, the Ashikaga, the Shimazu, the Oouchi, the
          Tokugawa, and countless branches of the Fujiwara who even took as their
          name the STREET NUMBER they lived at. Surely daimyo with names like
          Takayama and Takeda derived these names from locales or estates, no?

          For tsuru, I'd offer Tsuruzawa, a place in Kyushu, the lords of which took
          the name Tsuruzawa. They were bested by one of the Ootomo in the 16th
          century, and vanished from the scene.

          > P.G.O'Neil derived his names from the Tokyo telephone directory
          > and similar sources. (See the introduction.) Who was it that
          > was criticising people for wearing clothing dating from 1630?

          There is a difference between wearing something documentedly post period,
          and trying to come up with a name that, while not existing in period, is
          consistent with period naming styles.

          Effingham
        • Barbara Nostrand
          Baron Edward! ... I wish I could afford that set. It probably isn t even in print any more. Kinokuniya seems to list every Japanese book published in the last
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 23, 1999
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            Baron Edward!

            >What I grabbed was the index of the Kadokawa Nihon Chimei Daijiten (with a
            >huge 900-plus page volume for each prefecture), the Seimei Kakei Daijiten,
            >and the Yoshikawa Kokushi Daijiten.

            I wish I could afford that set. It probably isn't even in print any more.
            Kinokuniya seems to list every Japanese book published in the last forty
            years regardless of whether or not it is print.

            >Tsuruzawa Tomoshiro (d. 1749, a shamisen artist).
            >Tsurumine Shigenobu (Edo era scholar).
            >Tsuruse Chorokuro (a retainer of the Imagawa)
            >Tsuruzawa Tangei (Edo era scholar)
            >Tsuruya (Crane Valley!) Tohachi, a jiuta master.

            And when did these people live? I can document a significant shift
            change in the names of Japanese women at about 1600. For that matter,
            were did you look these people up?

            >There are a pile more, but they are musicians and artists of the Edo
            >period. I'm assuming that scholars were samurai, and as such, their names
            >were probably older than they were.

            Some of the them would be samurai or descended from samurai. You know
            perfectly well just how complicated the Edo arts scene was. Quite a
            few of these artists would be going by names other than a hereditary
            samurai name though. That doesn't mean that the name itself wasn't
            descended from a samuari name.

            >Two that stuck out were Tsurugadani (an archaic form), and Tsurugai, an
            >interesting reading of Tsuru (ga) ya, or crane valley.

            For a variety of reasons, I think that Tsuruya would be more likely
            than Tsurugadan or Tsurugaya as household names.

            >At any rate, we DO have references for a period place called Tsurugadani,
            >and references to early names of Tsuruya, which has the same kanji.

            Baron Edward, you will of course recall that the -ga- is actually
            descended from its own kanji.

            >It doesn't matter. The idea is to create a name that is CONSISTENT with
            >period naming practice.

            Actually the College of Arms has gotten a bit stuffier than that.

            >It was quite common for a family to derive their name from the land
            >they held.

            Who is disputing that? However, the estates and provinces themselves had
            names and these were not necessarily the same as village names.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

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          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... The thing that kills ME about Kinokuniya is the fact that I order a book from em, and about two weeks later get an e-mail saying it s out of print and the
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 23, 1999
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              Barbara Nostrand wrote:

              > Baron Edward!
              >
              > >What I grabbed was the index of the Kadokawa Nihon Chimei Daijiten (with a
              > >huge 900-plus page volume for each prefecture), the Seimei Kakei Daijiten,
              > >and the Yoshikawa Kokushi Daijiten.
              >
              > I wish I could afford that set. It probably isn't even in print any more.
              > Kinokuniya seems to list every Japanese book published in the last forty
              > years regardless of whether or not it is print.

              The thing that kills ME about Kinokuniya is the fact that I order a book from
              'em, and about two weeks later get an e-mail saying it's out of print and the
              order's canceled. Meanwhile, I'm drooling over the prospect of getting these
              cool books. Gr..

              One of the things I miss about being in Tokyo is the ability to go to Kanda
              and hit three or four used book stores and grabbing what I want... Sigh.

              >
              > >Tsuruzawa Tomoshiro (d. 1749, a shamisen artist).
              > >Tsurumine Shigenobu (Edo era scholar).
              > >Tsuruse Chorokuro (a retainer of the Imagawa)
              > >Tsuruzawa Tangei (Edo era scholar)
              > >Tsuruya (Crane Valley!) Tohachi, a jiuta master.
              >
              > And when did these people live? I can document a significant shift
              > change in the names of Japanese women at about 1600. For that matter,
              > were did you look these people up?

              Most of them were in the Nihonshi Daijiten. And most were late 17th early 18th
              c. Yes, I see your point about them being post period, but the names are
              acceptable, especially as the samurai were likely from families that had been
              around for at least 100 years or more by then.

              > >There are a pile more, but they are musicians and artists of the Edo
              > >period. I'm assuming that scholars were samurai, and as such, their names
              > >were probably older than they were.
              >
              > Some of the them would be samurai or descended from samurai. You know
              > perfectly well just how complicated the Edo arts scene was. Quite a
              > few of these artists would be going by names other than a hereditary
              > samurai name though. That doesn't mean that the name itself wasn't
              > descended from a samuari name

              Valid point.

              > Two that stuck out were Tsurugadani (an archaic form), and Tsurugai, an
              > >interesting reading of Tsuru (ga) ya, or crane valley.
              >
              > For a variety of reasons, I think that Tsuruya would be more likely
              > than Tsurugadan or Tsurugaya as household names.

              Agreed. I kind of like the name Tsuruya. (There was a famous family of
              publishers using that name in mid-late Edo, but of course their ya was the ya
              in Nagoya. No surprise there... <g>

              > >At any rate, we DO have references for a period place called Tsurugadani,
              > >and references to early names of Tsuruya, which has the same kanji.
              >
              > Baron Edward, you will of course recall that the -ga- is actually
              > descended from its own kanji.

              Yup, but it was often omitted, and when it was used is usually written with a
              small katakana "ke" as in Kasumigaseki, Tsurugaoka, and (my fave) Sekigahara.
              The fact that as a genitive particle ga and no are often not written down
              doesn't affect the name, though, as it was written Tsuru+tani and pronounced
              Tsurugai (which has to be a contraction of Tsuru ga ya).

              >
              > >It doesn't matter. The idea is to create a name that is CONSISTENT with
              > >period naming practice.
              >
              > Actually the College of Arms has gotten a bit stuffier than that.

              Wouldn't surprise me. The pendulum was bound to swing the other way at some
              point. <g>

              > >It was quite common for a family to derive their name from the land
              > >they held.
              >
              > Who is disputing that? However, the estates and provinces themselves had
              > names and these were not necessarily the same as village names.
              >

              Tell that to the Tokugawa, Ashikaga, Soma, etc. Those were the names of the
              villages they settled in. <g>

              Effingham
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Noble Cousins! ... For those of you who do not know what is going on here. The -ya which Baron Edward is refering to means house and designates the name of a
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                Noble Cousins!

                >
                >Agreed. I kind of like the name Tsuruya. (There was a famous family of
                >publishers using that name in mid-late Edo, but of course their ya was the ya
                >in Nagoya. No surprise there... <g>

                For those of you who do not know what is going on here. The -ya which
                Baron Edward is refering to means "house" and designates the name of
                a commercial establishment. Essentially, there are a number of trade
                names which became surnames when the people using them officially
                received permission to have family names during the Meiji Restoration.
                For example, I know people named Nakaya and Haginoya. Haginoya doesn't
                even sound like a proper family name to many Japanese people. Haginoya
                sounds like a reference to a particular kind of sweets shop. It is
                almost certainly a trade name which became a fmily name.

                The other -ya means valley and appears in a variety of names such
                as Shibuya which is a railroad station in Tokyo and is also a family
                name.

                >Yup, but it was often omitted,

                Yes, the -ga is sometimes omitted and has since been abreviated to
                something which looks like katana ke.

                >> Who is disputing that? However, the estates and provinces themselves had
                >> names and these were not necessarily the same as village names.
                >>
                >
                >Tell that to the Tokugawa, Ashikaga, Soma, etc. Those were the names of the
                >villages they settled in. <g>

                Baron Edward. There are lots and lots of places which do not appear
                to have families associated with them. Tokugawa, Soma, &c. are
                documentable names.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

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              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... And again, what it shows is that in period many Japanese surnames were taken from geographic places, town names. Ergo, a period town name is a viable
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                  Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                  >
                  > >Tell that to the Tokugawa, Ashikaga, Soma, etc. Those were the names of the
                  > >villages they settled in. <g>
                  >
                  > Baron Edward. There are lots and lots of places which do not appear
                  > to have families associated with them. Tokugawa, Soma, &c. are
                  > documentable names.
                  >

                  And again, what it shows is that in period many Japanese surnames were taken from
                  geographic places, town names. Ergo, a period town name is a viable source for an
                  SCA-use surname.

                  It's certainly more authentic than some of the names other people use, cobbling
                  together bits of typewriter barf and saying "it's a made up name."

                  Effingham
                • Barbara Nostrand
                  Baron Edward! I agree that far to many people cobble together bits of typewriter barf and call the result a name. This is hardly unique to Japanese names in
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                    Baron Edward!

                    I agree that far to many people cobble together bits of "typewriter barf"
                    and call the result a name. This is hardly unique to Japanese names in
                    the Society. However, we can still do better than picking up a modern
                    Japanese Atlas and stabbing our finger on it to pick a place name for
                    a surname.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

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                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... The town was extant in period with that name. It is a period town name. Period town names were used to create surnames in period. Therefore, this is an
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 24, 1999
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                      Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                      > Baron Edward!
                      >
                      > I agree that far to many people cobble together bits of "typewriter barf"
                      > and call the result a name. This is hardly unique to Japanese names in
                      > the Society. However, we can still do better than picking up a modern
                      > Japanese Atlas and stabbing our finger on it to pick a place name for
                      > a surname.

                      The town was extant in period with that name. It is a period town name.
                      Period town names were used to create surnames in period. Therefore, this is
                      an acceptable name.


                      Effingham
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