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Now that I opened a can of worms (was Trade pots for Garb)

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  • mneumark@hotmail.com
    Oh, Ok...I m trying to find patterns for a full noblewoman s garb, all the pieces. What are all the pieces of clothing I would need and does anyone have any
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 2, 2001
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      Oh, Ok...I'm trying to find patterns for a full noblewoman's garb,
      all the pieces. What are all the pieces of clothing I would need and
      does anyone have any patterns?

      Sorry...I know you all have talked about this before, but when I went
      to the files section I couldn't figure out what I needed. >sigh<

      --Raku
    • andrea@gideonfamily.org
      ... and ... Excuse me if you already mentioned it, but what period are you looking for? Nadeshiko
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 2, 2001
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        --- In sca-jml@y..., mneumark@h... wrote:
        > Oh, Ok...I'm trying to find patterns for a full noblewoman's garb,
        > all the pieces. What are all the pieces of clothing I would need
        and
        > does anyone have any patterns?
        >
        >> --Raku

        Excuse me if you already mentioned it, but what period are you looking
        for?
        Nadeshiko
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Well... ummm... What period? And what social class? Effingham
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 2, 2001
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          mneumark@... wrote:

          > Oh, Ok...I'm trying to find patterns for a full noblewoman's garb,
          > all the pieces. What are all the pieces of clothing I would need and
          > does anyone have any patterns?
          >

          Well... ummm...

          What period? And what social class?


          Effingham
        • mneumark@hotmail.com
          ... and ... Late Period, 1560-1650 (pre-meiji period right?). Noble woman...or is that not a class really? This brings up another question, actually. I have
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 2, 2001
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            --- In sca-jml@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
            > mneumark@h... wrote:
            >
            > > Oh, Ok...I'm trying to find patterns for a full noblewoman's garb,
            > > all the pieces. What are all the pieces of clothing I would need
            and
            > > does anyone have any patterns?
            > >
            >
            > Well... ummm...
            >
            > What period? And what social class?
            >

            Late Period, 1560-1650 (pre-meiji period right?). Noble woman...or
            is that not a class really? This brings up another question,
            actually. I have "How things Work: Japan" bookand they say there are
            only a few classes...if say I was a potter living in Kyoto (I would
            think it was Kyoto) what class WOULD I be? Is there a crafter class
            or is that merchant or what?

            An old movie "The Potters of Japan" I believe it was called,
            mentioned emperial potters who lived in Kyoto (they also showed Shoji
            Hamada briefly, which dates the movie). Of course, this was pre
            1940's, so I have NO idea how long these people lived there. I do
            know that the Raku family has been in the same area in Kyoto for 400+
            years (per the website) when it was first "discovered" I guess.

            So, actually, what I'd love to have is garb for events, and work
            clothes...but I think that would be holding my breath (and asking for
            too much). What do you think?

            --Raku
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Hm. Okay, late period is 1560-1600. 1601-1650 is *post* period. The object for us is to ignore Meiji, and think only of being before Edo -- which
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 3, 2001
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              mneumark@... wrote:

              >
              > > What period? And what social class?
              > >
              >
              > Late Period, 1560-1650 (pre-meiji period right?).

              Hm. Okay, late period is 1560-1600. 1601-1650 is *post* period. <G> The
              object for us is to ignore Meiji, and think only of being "before Edo" --
              which began, for all intents and purposes, in October of 1600.

              > Noble woman...or
              > is that not a class really?

              It's a social position, but I meant noble in the sense of military
              aristocracy (daimyo's wife or something) or civil aristocracy (Kyoto's
              traditional kuge nobility). There were gulfs between the two, although there
              was a sort of overlap, seeing as how the daimyo and such warriors had to
              have court ranks as well commiserate with their position (e.g., Nobunaga was
              also the udaijin, minister of the right, one of the *top* positions under
              the old court system).


              > This brings up another question,
              > actually. I have "How things Work: Japan" bookand they say there are
              > only a few classes...

              It's probably speaking of the old tetragon, "warrior farmer artist merchant"
              -- that's a distinction in category, but not class.

              > if say I was a potter living in Kyoto (I would
              > think it was Kyoto) what class WOULD I be? Is there a crafter class
              > or is that merchant or what?
              >

              It depends entirely on who your clientele was. A potter who supplied the
              imperial court with tea ware was above a potter who made bowls for the
              daimyo of Kaga, who was above the one who made bowls for rank-and-file
              samurai homes in Echizen, who would be above the guy who made pots and bowls
              used by the poor folks in the capitals suburban tenements.

              Technically, only the craftsmen who interacted with the high and mighty
              could even get by with anything like "formal" (think "Sunday best") clothes,
              and they wouldn't need court clothes (think "white tie and tails") because
              if by some weird quirk of fate you *are* in court, everyone knows that, as a
              craftsman, you're "just a commoner" and not a samurai or kuge person, so all
              you would be expected to wear is the best and cleanest clothes you have.

              Now, there is another way you can go. It's not unknown for aristocrats, both
              civil and military, to "dabble" in the arts. Nine out of ten times that
              meant poetry, but there were painters and potters on record. Of course, they
              didn't *sell* what they did -- that would be mercenary, and below them. They
              would keep them, or give them as gifts.

              If you want to do something aristocratic, I'd say go with a warrior or noble
              family lineage and say it's your hobby; otherwise, *be* a commoner, a
              merchant, and just do what you like. Personally, I'd find it refreshing to
              see a real craftsman doing a real craftsman non-samurai non-kuge typical run
              of the mill shomin type persona.

              We do have some real craftsmen out there (Hi, Bun'ami-dono!!) but by and
              large the preferred persona is samurai. I've seen lots of people wearing
              "dressing down" Japanese clothig, but I can't recall seeing anyone actively
              trying to DO a common folk outfit/persona.

              >
              > An old movie "The Potters of Japan" I believe it was called,
              > mentioned emperial potters who lived in Kyoto (they also showed Shoji
              > Hamada briefly, which dates the movie).

              Yoiks!

              > Of course, this was pre
              > 1940's, so I have NO idea how long these people lived there. I do
              > know that the Raku family has been in the same area in Kyoto for 400+
              > years (per the website) when it was first "discovered" I guess.
              >
              > So, actually, what I'd love to have is garb for events, and work
              > clothes...but I think that would be holding my breath (and asking for
              > too much). What do you think?

              Well, you *do* have some decisions to make...

              Effingham
            • Mercy Neumark
              OK...from what we ve discussed thus far: Late period (near the turn of the century). ... Well...with this being said, can I have a craftsman that sold to the
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 11, 2001
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                OK...from what we've discussed thus far:

                Late period (near the turn of the century).

                >It depends entirely on who your clientele was. A potter who supplied
                >the
                >imperial court with tea ware was above a potter who made bowls for the
                >daimyo of Kaga, who was above the one who made bowls for rank-and-file
                >samurai homes in Echizen, who would be above the guy who made pots
                >and bowls
                >used by the poor folks in the capitals suburban tenements.

                >Personally, I'd find it
                >refreshing to
                >see a real craftsman doing a real craftsman non-samurai non-kuge
                >typical run
                >of the mill shomin type persona.

                Well...with this being said, can I have a craftsman that sold to the daimyo
                of Kaga (side note...Kaga? Like Chairman Kaga on Iron Chef? Sorry for the
                geek question, but I was curious.). What is happening in my life is that I
                am going to be the Kingdom of Caid's court potter in the next reign. So,
                I'd like to keep with the SCA in some regards...you know what I mean? I
                don't mind doing a craftsman in Japan. My italian persona is just a potter
                as well, so I'm thinking its easier for me to remember.

                So, if this works, can you tell me what I'd be wearing to work and what my
                "sunday best" would be? Suggestions on prefectures where I could have been
                born and work at? I'm thinking Kyoto, but maybe that's too typical.
                Suggestions? Oh, is the name ok (Tasukawa Raku) still?

                And thanks for all your help. :)

                By the way, on Iron Chef, there was a challenger that had was a chef at a
                small resturarnt...I don't remember the FIRST part of it, but there was that
                "rakurakutei" word play in there somehow. Now I see what you were talking
                about, Edward. Before I just nodded and smiled...whatever you say,
                Edward-dono. :)

                --Raku

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              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... If my memory serves me.... yup. ... A clean (nice pattern, nice color) kosode with a clean apron (perhaps). Common folk have it easy in costume stuff. This
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 15, 2001
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                  Mercy Neumark wrote:

                  > OK...from what we've discussed thus far:
                  >
                  > Late period (near the turn of the century).

                  > Well...with this being said, can I have a craftsman that sold to the daimyo
                  > of Kaga (side note...Kaga? Like Chairman Kaga on Iron Chef? Sorry for the
                  > geek question, but I was curious.).

                  If my memory serves me.... yup.

                  > What is happening in my life is that I
                  > am going to be the Kingdom of Caid's court potter in the next reign. So,
                  > I'd like to keep with the SCA in some regards...you know what I mean? I
                  > don't mind doing a craftsman in Japan. My italian persona is just a potter
                  > as well, so I'm thinking its easier for me to remember.
                  >
                  > So, if this works, can you tell me what I'd be wearing to work and what my
                  > "sunday best" would be?

                  A clean (nice pattern, nice color) kosode with a clean apron (perhaps). Common
                  folk have it easy in costume stuff. This is actually a hard one for me, as the
                  ones who have that type of function tend to be... well, men, and men's garb is
                  easier to suggest for something like that since women don't typically (never
                  that I know of) function in that way...

                  > Suggestions on prefectures where I could have been
                  > born and work at?

                  Actually, anywhere would be likely. There are places more famous for pottery
                  (good clay to start with, I guess). Your pottery books should talk about places
                  like Seto and so on.

                  > I'm thinking Kyoto, but maybe that's too typical.
                  > Suggestions? Oh, is the name ok (Tasukawa Raku) still?
                  >

                  Definitely!

                  >
                  > And thanks for all your help. :)
                  >
                  > By the way, on Iron Chef, there was a challenger that had was a chef at a
                  > small resturarnt...I don't remember the FIRST part of it, but there was that
                  > "rakurakutei" word play in there somehow. Now I see what you were talking
                  > about, Edward. Before I just nodded and smiled...whatever you say,
                  > Edward-dono. :)

                  <G>

                  Effingham
                  Iron Chef Wetbar
                • JP
                  As I was taught, it is common practice to prefix women s names which are less than three syllables in length, with O- . Names beginning with a vowel are
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 16, 2001
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                    As I was taught, it is common practice to prefix women's names which
                    are less than three syllables in length, with "O-". Names beginning
                    with a vowel are exempt.

                    example: O-Suzu, O-Ko, O-Rin.

                    Takeuchi

                    ---
                    > > I'm thinking Kyoto, but maybe that's too typical.
                    > > Suggestions? Oh, is the name ok (Tasukawa Raku) still?


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                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The o-name convention appears to have gotten its start in the sixteenth century and pretty much started dying out about a
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 16, 2001
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! The o-name convention appears to have gotten its
                      start in the sixteenth century and pretty much started dying out about
                      a century ago.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
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