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  • Susan and Frank Downs
    Greetings, all! Thanks to Ii-dono, whom I met at Atlantia s most recent Coronation,my husband and I have finally joined this most estimable group of
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 29, 2001
      Greetings, all!

      Thanks to Ii-dono, whom I met at Atlantia's most recent Coronation,my
      husband and I have finally joined this most estimable group of Japanophiles.
      I've been lurking shyly until now, but felt I should finally introduce
      myself.

      My name is Sakakiya Maroe, and I live in Atlantia. I am a Momoyama lady,
      married to Takenoshita Naro, and protege of Minowara Kiritsubo. I've
      maintained a dual SCA persona-half Irish, half Nihonjin-since 1983. All of
      my friends are very confused. I figure it's good for their brains.

      I have a question, mostly for Effingham-dono. For years I've been trying to
      find out the proper way to refer to myself, as a married lady. (And, yes, we
      did have a Japanese SCA wedding, complete with the nine sips of sake; big
      fun!) Do I use my husband's surname? (It tends to make heralds sputter, as
      they do not know how to pronounce it without sounding, um, vulgar.) Do I add
      a no-Takenoshita to my own name? I've found about nine different answers to
      this question, but none of them really satisfied me, as they were not based
      on sources I could check myself. (Although I don't think I ever bothered to
      ask Kiri-dono-silly me-because we're usually too busy talking about garb!)

      For any help you can offer me, I thank you in advance.

      -Maroe (which is what most people call me)
    • Barbara Nostrand
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You generally speaking do not refer to yourself by name at all. That is someone else s job. Historical women are referred
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 29, 2001
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig! You generally speaking do not refer to yourself
        by name at all. That is someone else's job. Historical women are
        referred to in many different ways. You might easily be referred to
        simply as Naro no Tsuma. Presuming that your husband is of sufficient
        status, you might be referred to as Maroe-gozen. If you wish to engage
        in nanori, then you should probably declare your lineage such as your
        relationship with your husband and your own origin. Since ancient
        times, this was often done discretely using calling cards. Some books on
        Japan erroneously insist that calling cards were introduced from the
        United States. They actually had a precursor used by the Kuge (court
        aristocracy) during the Heian period. Only the modern format was
        introduced from the United States.


        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar
        --
        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
        | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
        | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
        | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
        | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
        | techie.com, msn.com |
        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
      • Ii Saburou
        ... Hey, you should know better than to dagle something like that in front of us ;) Details, please! What kinds of cards were these? Were they strictly for
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 30, 2001
          On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Barbara Nostrand wrote:

          > times, this was often done discretely using calling cards. Some books on
          > Japan erroneously insist that calling cards were introduced from the
          > United States. They actually had a precursor used by the Kuge (court
          > aristocracy) during the Heian period. Only the modern format was
          > introduced from the United States.

          Hey, you should know better than to dagle something like that in front of
          us ;) Details, please!

          What kinds of cards were these? Were they strictly for the kuge? Were
          they actual paper cards? Where are the references?

          This is really interesting.

          -Ii
        • Elaine Koogler
          You met Ii-dono and didn t introduce me???? Bad Protege! Must remember to slap you on the nose with a newspaper when I see you....or maybe I won t as you re
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2001
            You met Ii-dono and didn't introduce me???? Bad Protege! Must remember to slap
            you on the nose with a newspaper when I see you....or maybe I won't as you're
            usually so good!

            Kiri
            (thinking....hmmm...she may have introduced me and I was so "out of it" that it
            didn't register. If that's the case, Ii-dono, please forgive me!....you, too,
            Maroe!)

            Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

            > Greetings, all!
            >
            > Thanks to Ii-dono, whom I met at Atlantia's most recent Coronation,my
            > husband and I have finally joined this most estimable group of Japanophiles.
            > I've been lurking shyly until now, but felt I should finally introduce
            > myself.
            >
            > My name is Sakakiya Maroe, and I live in Atlantia. I am a Momoyama lady,
            > married to Takenoshita Naro, and protege of Minowara Kiritsubo. I've
            > maintained a dual SCA persona-half Irish, half Nihonjin-since 1983. All of
            > my friends are very confused. I figure it's good for their brains.
            >
            > I have a question, mostly for Effingham-dono. For years I've been trying to
            > find out the proper way to refer to myself, as a married lady. (And, yes, we
            > did have a Japanese SCA wedding, complete with the nine sips of sake; big
            > fun!) Do I use my husband's surname? (It tends to make heralds sputter, as
            > they do not know how to pronounce it without sounding, um, vulgar.) Do I add
            > a no-Takenoshita to my own name? I've found about nine different answers to
            > this question, but none of them really satisfied me, as they were not based
            > on sources I could check myself. (Although I don't think I ever bothered to
            > ask Kiri-dono-silly me-because we're usually too busy talking about garb!)
            >
            > For any help you can offer me, I thank you in advance.
            >
            > -Maroe (which is what most people call me)
            >
            >
            > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Yoroshiku!! ... Surprise... it s a complex issue. You wouldn t change your name; they didn t seem to do that. We talk about only certain classes had
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 2, 2001
              Susan and Frank Downs wrote:

              > Greetings, all!
              >
              > Thanks to Ii-dono, whom I met at Atlantia's most recent Coronation,my
              > husband and I have finally joined this most estimable group of Japanophiles.
              > I've been lurking shyly until now, but felt I should finally introduce
              > myself.
              >
              > My name is Sakakiya Maroe, and I live in Atlantia. I am a Momoyama lady,
              > married to Takenoshita Naro, and protege of Minowara Kiritsubo. I've
              > maintained a dual SCA persona-half Irish, half Nihonjin-since 1983. All of
              > my friends are very confused. I figure it's good for their brains.
              >

              Yoroshiku!!

              >
              > I have a question, mostly for Effingham-dono. For years I've been trying to
              > find out the proper way to refer to myself, as a married lady. (And, yes, we
              > did have a Japanese SCA wedding, complete with the nine sips of sake; big
              > fun!) Do I use my husband's surname? (It tends to make heralds sputter, as
              > they do not know how to pronounce it without sounding, um, vulgar.) Do I add
              > a no-Takenoshita to my own name? I've found about nine different answers to
              > this question, but none of them really satisfied me, as they were not based
              > on sources I could check myself. (Although I don't think I ever bothered to
              > ask Kiri-dono-silly me-because we're usually too busy talking about garb!)

              Surprise... it's a complex issue. <G>

              You wouldn't change your name; they didn't seem to do that.

              We talk about only certain classes had surnames, but in reality, it seems that
              only certain classes and only the MEN had them. Women don't get much coverage
              in onomastic terms. You wouldn't be wrong to call Shingen's daughter O-Matsu
              "Takeda Matsu-hime" but in real terms it would probably be "Takeda *no*
              Matsu-hime" (literally, "Princess Matsu of the Takeda") while a son would be
              Takeda Katsuyori (literally, "Takeda Katsuyori" <G>).

              In Heian days, upper class women were patrilocal -- they stayed with their
              parents after marriage, and the hubby came visiting from time to time. While
              they *did* at times relocate to the husband's home, this was the recognized
              pattern, and it follows then that the wife was still identified by her parents'
              names. In Heian times, the two most famous women today are Murasaki Shikibu and
              Sei Shonagon. Shikibu was actually a Fujiwara, but she also married a Fujiwara
              -- but she isn't known by that surname. Sei was actually from the Kiyowara
              family (the first character of the surname, "Kiyo," is "Sei" in on'yomi). It's
              not clear who she was married to, but a few people have suggested a few
              marriages, including Fujiwara folks, but her surname is still Kiyowara.

              In the later medieval period, this still seems to have been true, although
              wives now moved in with their husbands as a rule (except, perhaps, in the
              Capital, where kuge were possibly slow to change their ways). This also meant
              that the wives more closely identified with their new families. We find
              Muromachi wives referring to "waga Ashikaga-ke" ("our Ashikaga House") even
              though they married into it. Most of these women, however, are only known to
              history by a given name (or more commonly a pseudonymous title based on the
              location of their residence).

              For example, Oda Nobunaga's sister, who was first married to Asai Nagamasa,
              lord of Odani castle, and then remarried to Shibata Katsuie. She is known to
              history as "Odani-no-kata" ("the Lady of Odani") even during the period
              afterward when she was married to Katsuie. She was also, however, referred to
              as "Asai Fujin" and "Shibata Fujin" ("the Asai Lady" and "the Shibata Lady" --
              fujin being used also for "mistress" [female master, not the modern meaning]).
              In chronicles, she appears in one instance as "Shibata Fujin Odani-no-Kata" ...
              Although nowhere is she referred to as "Oda (anything)." For all we know -- and
              we don't -- her actual given name might have been O-Haru, and her husband and
              family might have called her "Haru" while everyone else referred to her as:

              "Okugata-sama" (a term of address to and reference of the Lady of the House;
              for people on the outside, however, they would have to say something like "Asai
              no okugata-sama" unless people *know* that she's the one being spoken of, as
              this is non-person-specific.)
              "Odani-no-kata" (a term of reference -- not address -- used by people to talk
              about her)
              "Asai/Shibata Fujin" (a term of reference -- not address -- used by people to
              talk about her)
              "Hime" (a term of address or reference to people who knew her when she was
              younger, typically Oda clan folk; again, though, this is not person-specific)
              "Fujin-dono" (a term of address for the Lady of the House)


              What all this means is that women's names were just very fluid, and we really
              just don't have much info on them. Even in family registers, we're lucky to
              find a woman's name. Usually what we see is this (needs monospaced font):


              Katsuyoshi

              |
              __________________________________________________________________
              | | |
              | | | |
              Katsumasa Woman Woman Katsuhide Katsuyori
              Woman Katsuhiro

              (Sanjo-no-In)
              (Arima Hiroyasu no Fujin)

              So what we get is... the SCA name registration process is a "half-ketsu-ed"
              solution that really doesn't address period naming/referrence methods of
              Japanese women. Or, rather, we don't have enough real information -- even in
              Japanese -- to come up with a more practical solution. If we were to try to do
              this, everyone in the SCA would have to learn how Japanese society works, so
              that you might register (as birth name) Oda Haru, but since you are married to
              Takenoshita-dono, you would actually be known as "Takenoshita fujin dono" or
              maybe "Matsudori-no-In(-dono)" (if you live in an estate [in] on Pine [matsu]
              Street [dori]) or so on...

              Not much help, huh? Sorry.... <G>

              Effingham
              ----------
              "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that
              forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor
              acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the
              Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel
              themselves subdued."
              -- The Qur'an, Sura 9, verse 29

              "If you encounter those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you
              take them as captives you may set them free or
              ransom them, until the war ends. Had Allah willed, He could have granted
              you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one
              another. As for those who get killed in the cause of Allah, He will never
              put their sacrifice to waste."
              -- The Qur'an, Sura 47, verse 4
            • Elaine Koogler
              Yeah...now I m really confused. So my use of Minowara Kiritsubo is probably all wrong? Oh well...I guess it s been there for so long I m not sure if I could
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                Yeah...now I'm really confused. So my use of Minowara Kiritsubo is probably all
                wrong? Oh well...I guess it's been there for so long I'm not sure if I could even
                try to change it.

                Now, I've got another question...mostly from my Court herald: When he announces me
                into court as Baroness of Dun Carraig, how should that be done? I understand that
                "Minowara Kiritsubo-dan-shaku-fujin" is a modern usage for "Baroness". What should
                he be using as the period Japanese equivalent of Baroness Minowara Kiritsubo? I
                tried using your chart, but got very confused! Remember, I'm an old lady who gets
                confused very easily!!

                Kiri ;-)

                "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:

                > Susan and Frank Downs wrote:
                >
                > > Greetings, all!
                > >
                > > Thanks to Ii-dono, whom I met at Atlantia's most recent Coronation,my
                > > husband and I have finally joined this most estimable group of Japanophiles.
                > > I've been lurking shyly until now, but felt I should finally introduce
                > > myself.
                > >
                > > My name is Sakakiya Maroe, and I live in Atlantia. I am a Momoyama lady,
                > > married to Takenoshita Naro, and protege of Minowara Kiritsubo. I've
                > > maintained a dual SCA persona-half Irish, half Nihonjin-since 1983. All of
                > > my friends are very confused. I figure it's good for their brains.
                > >
                >
                > Yoroshiku!!
                >
                > >
                > > I have a question, mostly for Effingham-dono. For years I've been trying to
                > > find out the proper way to refer to myself, as a married lady. (And, yes, we
                > > did have a Japanese SCA wedding, complete with the nine sips of sake; big
                > > fun!) Do I use my husband's surname? (It tends to make heralds sputter, as
                > > they do not know how to pronounce it without sounding, um, vulgar.) Do I add
                > > a no-Takenoshita to my own name? I've found about nine different answers to
                > > this question, but none of them really satisfied me, as they were not based
                > > on sources I could check myself. (Although I don't think I ever bothered to
                > > ask Kiri-dono-silly me-because we're usually too busy talking about garb!)
                >
                > Surprise... it's a complex issue. <G>
                >
                > You wouldn't change your name; they didn't seem to do that.
                >
                > We talk about only certain classes had surnames, but in reality, it seems that
                > only certain classes and only the MEN had them. Women don't get much coverage
                > in onomastic terms. You wouldn't be wrong to call Shingen's daughter O-Matsu
                > "Takeda Matsu-hime" but in real terms it would probably be "Takeda *no*
                > Matsu-hime" (literally, "Princess Matsu of the Takeda") while a son would be
                > Takeda Katsuyori (literally, "Takeda Katsuyori" <G>).
                >
                > In Heian days, upper class women were patrilocal -- they stayed with their
                > parents after marriage, and the hubby came visiting from time to time. While
                > they *did* at times relocate to the husband's home, this was the recognized
                > pattern, and it follows then that the wife was still identified by her parents'
                > names. In Heian times, the two most famous women today are Murasaki Shikibu and
                > Sei Shonagon. Shikibu was actually a Fujiwara, but she also married a Fujiwara
                > -- but she isn't known by that surname. Sei was actually from the Kiyowara
                > family (the first character of the surname, "Kiyo," is "Sei" in on'yomi). It's
                > not clear who she was married to, but a few people have suggested a few
                > marriages, including Fujiwara folks, but her surname is still Kiyowara.
                >
                > In the later medieval period, this still seems to have been true, although
                > wives now moved in with their husbands as a rule (except, perhaps, in the
                > Capital, where kuge were possibly slow to change their ways). This also meant
                > that the wives more closely identified with their new families. We find
                > Muromachi wives referring to "waga Ashikaga-ke" ("our Ashikaga House") even
                > though they married into it. Most of these women, however, are only known to
                > history by a given name (or more commonly a pseudonymous title based on the
                > location of their residence).
                >
                > For example, Oda Nobunaga's sister, who was first married to Asai Nagamasa,
                > lord of Odani castle, and then remarried to Shibata Katsuie. She is known to
                > history as "Odani-no-kata" ("the Lady of Odani") even during the period
                > afterward when she was married to Katsuie. She was also, however, referred to
                > as "Asai Fujin" and "Shibata Fujin" ("the Asai Lady" and "the Shibata Lady" --
                > fujin being used also for "mistress" [female master, not the modern meaning]).
                > In chronicles, she appears in one instance as "Shibata Fujin Odani-no-Kata" ...
                > Although nowhere is she referred to as "Oda (anything)." For all we know -- and
                > we don't -- her actual given name might have been O-Haru, and her husband and
                > family might have called her "Haru" while everyone else referred to her as:
                >
                > "Okugata-sama" (a term of address to and reference of the Lady of the House;
                > for people on the outside, however, they would have to say something like "Asai
                > no okugata-sama" unless people *know* that she's the one being spoken of, as
                > this is non-person-specific.)
                > "Odani-no-kata" (a term of reference -- not address -- used by people to talk
                > about her)
                > "Asai/Shibata Fujin" (a term of reference -- not address -- used by people to
                > talk about her)
                > "Hime" (a term of address or reference to people who knew her when she was
                > younger, typically Oda clan folk; again, though, this is not person-specific)
                > "Fujin-dono" (a term of address for the Lady of the House)
                >
                > What all this means is that women's names were just very fluid, and we really
                > just don't have much info on them. Even in family registers, we're lucky to
                > find a woman's name. Usually what we see is this (needs monospaced font):
                >
                > Katsuyoshi
                >
                > |
                > __________________________________________________________________
                > | | |
                > | | | |
                > Katsumasa Woman Woman Katsuhide Katsuyori
                > Woman Katsuhiro
                >
                > (Sanjo-no-In)
                > (Arima Hiroyasu no Fujin)
                >
                > So what we get is... the SCA name registration process is a "half-ketsu-ed"
                > solution that really doesn't address period naming/referrence methods of
                > Japanese women. Or, rather, we don't have enough real information -- even in
                > Japanese -- to come up with a more practical solution. If we were to try to do
                > this, everyone in the SCA would have to learn how Japanese society works, so
                > that you might register (as birth name) Oda Haru, but since you are married to
                > Takenoshita-dono, you would actually be known as "Takenoshita fujin dono" or
                > maybe "Matsudori-no-In(-dono)" (if you live in an estate [in] on Pine [matsu]
                > Street [dori]) or so on...
                >
                > Not much help, huh? Sorry.... <G>
                >
                > Effingham
                > ----------
                > "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that
                > forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor
                > acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the
                > Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel
                > themselves subdued."
                > -- The Qur'an, Sura 9, verse 29
                >
                > "If you encounter those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you
                > take them as captives you may set them free or
                > ransom them, until the war ends. Had Allah willed, He could have granted
                > you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one
                > another. As for those who get killed in the cause of Allah, He will never
                > put their sacrifice to waste."
                > -- The Qur'an, Sura 47, verse 4
                >
                >
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Nate Ledbetter
                ... Uh, shitsurei itashimasu ga, I have always heard her referred to as Oichi...if we don t know her name, where has the Oichi come from? And just out of
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                  --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > For example, Oda Nobunaga's sister, who was first
                  > married to Asai Nagamasa,
                  > lord of Odani castle, and then remarried to Shibata
                  > Katsuie. She is known to
                  > history as "Odani-no-kata" ("the Lady of Odani")
                  > even during the period
                  > afterward when she was married to Katsuie. She was
                  > also, however, referred to
                  > as "Asai Fujin" and "Shibata Fujin" ("the Asai Lady"
                  > and "the Shibata Lady" --
                  > fujin being used also for "mistress" [female master,
                  > not the modern meaning]).
                  > In chronicles, she appears in one instance as
                  > "Shibata Fujin Odani-no-Kata" ...
                  > Although nowhere is she referred to as "Oda
                  > (anything)." For all we know -- and
                  > we don't -- her actual given name might have been
                  > O-Haru, and her husband and
                  > family might have called her "Haru"

                  Uh, shitsurei itashimasu ga, I have always heard her
                  referred to as Oichi...if we don't know her name,
                  where has the Oichi come from?

                  And just out of curiousity, what's with the Quran
                  verses at the bottom there?

                  Shonaigawa

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
                  http://phone.yahoo.com
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Not at all. It fits within our rules, and it works. Don t try to mess with them. ... I wouldn t try... Once, long ago, I did think of trying to
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                    Elaine Koogler wrote:

                    > Yeah...now I'm really confused. So my use of Minowara Kiritsubo is probably all
                    > wrong?

                    Not at all. It fits within our rules, and it works. Don't try to mess with them. <G>

                    > Oh well...I guess it's been there for so long I'm not sure if I could even
                    > try to change it.

                    I wouldn't try...

                    Once, long ago, I did think of trying to register "Miyawara Tomokatsu" (a real
                    Japanese version of Meowara Tomokato, the samurai cat). Don't know what made me just
                    think of that... <G>

                    >
                    > Now, I've got another question...mostly from my Court herald: When he announces me
                    > into court as Baroness of Dun Carraig, how should that be done? I understand that
                    > "Minowara Kiritsubo-dan-shaku-fujin" is a modern usage for "Baroness". What should
                    > he be using as the period Japanese equivalent of Baroness Minowara Kiritsubo? I
                    > tried using your chart, but got very confused! Remember, I'm an old lady who gets
                    > confused very easily!!

                    You have a couple of options.

                    You can translate Dun Carraig into Japanese and be introduced as the ryûshû ("Minowara
                    NaniNani-no-Kami Kiritsubo-dono"). For the record, as a peer, on *my* system you're
                    fourth court rank and entitled to the title "Ason." That's a title given to fifth and
                    fourth court rank folks; for fifth rank, it goes between sur- and given names, and for
                    fourth rank it goes after the given name (that's how you can tell the rank of the
                    person with the title). That's why in Japanese I identify as "Hiraizumi Tôrokurô
                    Tadanobu no Ason" (the "no" is optional).

                    They can also just introduce you with your Japanese name/title (ason), and then pause
                    (think "comma") and say "baroness of Dun Carraig." That isn't as persona-satisfying,
                    but it helps everyone *else* who doesn't grok the Zipang-language to know who you are.



                    Effingham
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... LOL! You know, I remembered that after I sent it. I ve been doing a translation of a book and the section I just finished was talking about Odani-no-kata s
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                      Nate Ledbetter wrote:

                      > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > For example, Oda Nobunaga's sister, who was first
                      > > married to Asai Nagamasa,
                      > > lord of Odani castle, and then remarried to Shibata
                      > > Katsuie. She is known to
                      > > history as "Odani-no-kata" ("the Lady of Odani")
                      > > even during the period
                      > > afterward when she was married to Katsuie. She was
                      > > also, however, referred to
                      > > as "Asai Fujin" and "Shibata Fujin" ("the Asai Lady"
                      > > and "the Shibata Lady" --
                      > > fujin being used also for "mistress" [female master,
                      > > not the modern meaning]).
                      > > In chronicles, she appears in one instance as
                      > > "Shibata Fujin Odani-no-Kata" ...
                      > > Although nowhere is she referred to as "Oda
                      > > (anything)." For all we know -- and
                      > > we don't -- her actual given name might have been
                      > > O-Haru, and her husband and
                      > > family might have called her "Haru"
                      >
                      > Uh, shitsurei itashimasu ga, I have always heard her
                      > referred to as Oichi...if we don't know her name,
                      > where has the Oichi come from?
                      >

                      LOL! You know, I remembered that after I sent it.

                      I've been doing a translation of a book and the section I just finished was
                      talking about Odani-no-kata's three daughters, one of whom became a wife of
                      Hideyoshi, one of whom became the wife of #2 shogun Hidetada (mom of #3
                      Iemitsu) and... well, the third <G>. Except for Yodo-gimi, they're nameless,
                      and I think I was focusing on them at the time, as these famous women
                      marrying powerful men, and they're known to history by the wing of the
                      castle they lived in. <G>

                      But you're right, Nobunaga's favorite sister *was* O-Ichi (and for those who
                      don't know, IIRC, the kanji was "town" ichi, not "one" ichi).

                      BTW, in Japanese books, besides identifying her early as O-Ichi, she soon
                      becomes Odani-no-kata, and that's how she's referred to there. Much like
                      while *we* might talk about "Emperor Hirohito" the Japanese say "Showa
                      Tenno," we have different points of reference based on our perceptions of
                      identity and name.

                      I once brought up the issue of women's onomastics resources in Japan with a
                      prof there. He said, "You know who 'Sei Shonagon' is, right?" and I said
                      yes. He said "Then what difference does it make if you call her Sei Shonagon
                      or Kiyowara Nagiko? And what difference if she served Teishi or Sadako? It's
                      the same person."

                      Somehow, I don't think he quite grasped my problem. <G>

                      >
                      > And just out of curiousity, what's with the Quran
                      > verses at the bottom there?

                      Some commentary on "the world's most peaceful religion."...


                      Effingham
                    • Barbara Nostrand
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You have several choices. no miyatsuko. nokami. no shugo. Those are in rough
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig! You have several choices.

                        <territory> no miyatsuko.
                        <territory> nokami.
                        <territory> no shugo.

                        Those are in rough chronological order with the shugo being the military
                        governors originally instituted after the Genpei War.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Thronardottir
                        Amateur Scholar
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                      • Barbara Nostrand
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Ason is a kabane and is part of an ancient titular system which may well predate the imperial system. The original kabane
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! Ason is a kabane and is part of an ancient titular
                          system which may well predate the imperial system. The original kabane
                          appear to have been assumed by clan dignitaries under the old pre-imperial
                          clan system. Later, the emperor took over the prerogative of handing the
                          things out and added a whole lot more of them. The exact list of kabane
                          varies from period to period and there have been whole doctoral
                          dissertations devoted to the things. Regardless, if you are a member of
                          the kuge and use a title like miyatsuko or nokami, then you really should
                          have one of the things and ason is not all that high under one of the more
                          recent systems. The things remained in use up until at least the Meiji
                          restoration when they were still appearing on official documents. They are,
                          as Baron Edward noted, slotted into the name along with all of the other
                          foo-faw. They are a perquisite of rank and are not so much a matter of being
                          a territorial baroness. Being a provincial governor was a job in classical
                          and medieval Japan.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar
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                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... Yes, but unless you re doing Asuka or Nara Japan, you re dealing with them as de-facto titles, not so much as names qua names. I know you enjoy the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                            Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                            > Noble Cousin!
                            >
                            > Greetings from Solveig! Ason is a kabane and is part of an ancient titular
                            > system which may well predate the imperial system. The original kabane
                            > appear to have been assumed by clan dignitaries under the old pre-imperial
                            > clan system. Later, the emperor took over the prerogative of handing the
                            > things out and added a whole lot more of them. The exact list of kabane
                            > varies from period to period and there have been whole doctoral
                            > dissertations devoted to the things.

                            Yes, but unless you're doing Asuka or Nara Japan, you're dealing with them as
                            de-facto titles, not so much as names qua names.

                            I know you enjoy the onomastic aspect of all this, but you *have* to go beyond
                            the issue of titles with kabane roots and treat them as what they were in
                            medieval Japan: honorary (sometimes practical) titles.

                            > Regardless, if you are a member of
                            > the kuge and use a title like miyatsuko or nokami, then you really should
                            > have one of the things and ason is not all that high under one of the more
                            > recent systems.

                            Kiri-dono's a bit too late to use Miyatsuko. That had its heyday in Nara and
                            Heian under the old Ritsuryô system. Also, miyatsuko were natively in the
                            provinces and typically what modern historians call "border barons" and heads
                            of local strongman families, not appointed court governors of provinces, whom
                            they often vied with for power in the region.

                            Additionally, -no-shûgo is a job description, but I don't recall seeing it used
                            actually as part of someone's name. That is, while a document may mention
                            "Satsuma no kuni shûgo Shitano Hisachika" (as the Mongol invasion scroll
                            identifies someone) that's no more part of his address than the identification
                            of "Chikuzen no kuni gokenin Akizuki no Kurô" as a shogunal house retainer, or
                            "Higo no kuni Takezaki Gorô heifunojô Suenaga" is identified by anything more
                            than where he comes from. (All examples from the same source). Shûgo were also
                            appointed by the bakufu, not by the court, so there may have been a provincial
                            governor (-no-kami) *and* a shûgo in the same province at the same time; early
                            on, fortunately, the bakufu was able to get the court to acquiesce (more or
                            less) to allow for the appointment of one to equal the appointment of the other
                            (and guess which got to make the appointment <G>).

                            I've never seen any text referring to someone by name *with* the title as part
                            of the name (like Doctor Smith or Baron Edward), but I have seen shûgo alone
                            used as address (like Doctor or Baron <G>).

                            On the other hand, by the latter part of our period, (and indeed earlier in
                            court document), "{Fief}-no-kami" is a recognized title and form of address, so
                            much so that we even have people recorded in texts by that title rather than
                            their own name. That's why we have people like Oyamada Shigenobu referred to
                            often as "Dewa-no-kami" or Oyamada Dewa-no-kami" without his proper name.

                            > The things remained in use up until at least the Meiji
                            > restoration when they were still appearing on official documents. They are,
                            > as Baron Edward noted, slotted into the name along with all of the other
                            > foo-faw.

                            I do not think "foo-faw" is Japanese. <wink wink>

                            > They are a perquisite of rank and are not so much a matter of being
                            > a territorial baroness. Being a provincial governor was a job in classical
                            > and medieval Japan.

                            Of course. I mentioned the ason as part of the fact that she was a peer, not
                            that she was a baroness, did I not? <G>

                            Effingham
                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! Where did I call kabane names? The roots for the things are as titles used by clan big wigs and later as cookies handed
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 3, 2001
                              Baron Edward!

                              Greetings from Solveig! Where did I call kabane names? The roots for the
                              things are as titles used by clan big wigs and later as cookies handed
                              out by the imperial government. The closest they get to being names is
                              in the sense of names attached to positions in various artistic families
                              such as kabuki actors. Yes, the letter used to write kabane also gets
                              used to refer to name elements, but that is something rather different.

                              Court introductions in the SCA quite often includes things which are not
                              parts of people's name. So and so foo of bar kumkwat of the zebra, &c.
                              I was not at all sure of exactly when Kiri-dono is inclined to be from.
                              I threw in the early Heian as a matter of reference.

                              Actually, baron might simply be summoned as Satsuma no Kuni Shûgo without
                              any part of the actual name being mentioned. THAT would be very Japanese.
                              Of course, the king can simply call them Kiri with no dono or anything
                              else attached to it.

                              Yes. The shûgo were appointed by the bakufu. Again, the problem is how
                              do you view barons. What best approximates a baron in the Society
                              changes depending on the time period. Yes, the ancient governors may
                              have continued to be appointed, but they didn't even have serious
                              bragging rights by the Muromachi period. Also, the court governors
                              of the Muromachi period just do not correspond to what the people in the
                              Society want their barons to be.

                              I slot the peerage (for people interested in post-Heian society) a bit
                              lower than 5th rank as I slot the king at that rank. Territorial
                              governors kuni-no-kami can be of somewhat lower rank.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar
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                            • Elaine Koogler
                              So, then, mine would come out as Minowara Kiritsubo-no-Ason? Where does the meijin that we talked about come in? (I think the second option you offered is
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                So, then, mine would come out as Minowara Kiritsubo-no-Ason? Where does the "meijin" that
                                we talked about come in? (I think the second option you offered is probably the best
                                one...unless I'm at a Japanese event)?

                                Kiri, the pest

                                "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:

                                > Elaine Koogler wrote:
                                >
                                > > Yeah...now I'm really confused. So my use of Minowara Kiritsubo is probably all
                                > > wrong?
                                >
                                > Not at all. It fits within our rules, and it works. Don't try to mess with them. <G>
                                >
                                > > Oh well...I guess it's been there for so long I'm not sure if I could even
                                > > try to change it.
                                >
                                > I wouldn't try...
                                >
                                > Once, long ago, I did think of trying to register "Miyawara Tomokatsu" (a real
                                > Japanese version of Meowara Tomokato, the samurai cat). Don't know what made me just
                                > think of that... <G>
                                >
                                > >
                                > > Now, I've got another question...mostly from my Court herald: When he announces me
                                > > into court as Baroness of Dun Carraig, how should that be done? I understand that
                                > > "Minowara Kiritsubo-dan-shaku-fujin" is a modern usage for "Baroness". What should
                                > > he be using as the period Japanese equivalent of Baroness Minowara Kiritsubo? I
                                > > tried using your chart, but got very confused! Remember, I'm an old lady who gets
                                > > confused very easily!!
                                >
                                > You have a couple of options.
                                >
                                > You can translate Dun Carraig into Japanese and be introduced as the ryûshû ("Minowara
                                > NaniNani-no-Kami Kiritsubo-dono"). For the record, as a peer, on *my* system you're
                                > fourth court rank and entitled to the title "Ason." That's a title given to fifth and
                                > fourth court rank folks; for fifth rank, it goes between sur- and given names, and for
                                > fourth rank it goes after the given name (that's how you can tell the rank of the
                                > person with the title). That's why in Japanese I identify as "Hiraizumi Tôrokurô
                                > Tadanobu no Ason" (the "no" is optional).
                                >
                                > They can also just introduce you with your Japanese name/title (ason), and then pause
                                > (think "comma") and say "baroness of Dun Carraig." That isn't as persona-satisfying,
                                > but it helps everyone *else* who doesn't grok the Zipang-language to know who you are.
                                >
                                > Effingham
                                >
                                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Nate Ledbetter
                                ... if we don t know her name, ... DANG!!! I was hoping finally I might have caught something you didn t!!! LOL!! ... Really?? I knew Chacha/Yodogimi of
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                  --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                  if we don't know her name,
                                  > > where has the Oichi come from?
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > LOL! You know, I remembered that after I sent it.
                                  >

                                  DANG!!! I was hoping finally I might have caught
                                  something you didn't!!! LOL!!

                                  > I've been doing a translation of a book and the
                                  > section I just finished was
                                  > talking about Odani-no-kata's three daughters, one
                                  > of whom became a wife of
                                  > Hideyoshi, one of whom became the wife of #2 shogun
                                  > Hidetada (mom of #3
                                  > Iemitsu) and... well, the third <G>. Except for
                                  > Yodo-gimi, they're nameless,
                                  > and I think I was focusing on them at the time, as
                                  > these famous women
                                  > marrying powerful men, and they're known to history
                                  > by the wing of the
                                  > castle they lived in. <G>

                                  Really?? I knew Chacha/Yodogimi of course, but I could
                                  have sworn that somewhere the others were referred to
                                  by name...maybe they made some up for the Hideyoshi
                                  Taiga drama, and that's where I heard them. Darn.

                                  >
                                  > But you're right, Nobunaga's favorite sister *was*
                                  > O-Ichi (and for those who
                                  > don't know, IIRC, the kanji was "town" ichi, not
                                  > "one" ichi).
                                  >

                                  And supposedly quite the "Betty", from what I hear...

                                  >
                                  > I once brought up the issue of women's onomastics
                                  > resources in Japan with a
                                  > prof there. He said, "You know who 'Sei Shonagon'
                                  > is, right?" and I said
                                  > yes. He said "Then what difference does it make if
                                  > you call her Sei Shonagon
                                  > or Kiyowara Nagiko? And what difference if she
                                  > served Teishi or Sadako? It's
                                  > the same person."
                                  >
                                  > Somehow, I don't think he quite grasped my problem.
                                  > <G>

                                  Don't you just hate that? Almost as frustrating to me
                                  anyways is the ever-changing men's names: Is he Baba
                                  Nobuharu or Nobufusa? I think they just went by
                                  "title" (Baba Mino-no-kami Nobu SOMETHING) since they
                                  couldn't ever remember each other's names!!

                                  Of course, even more frustrating to me is when a book
                                  refers to an individual throughout his whole life...in
                                  1575 there was NO TOYOTOMI HIDEYOSHI!! It was Hashiba
                                  Hideyoshi, dang it! and before that it was Kinoshita
                                  Tokichiro!!

                                  > >
                                  > > And just out of curiousity, what's with the Quran
                                  > > verses at the bottom there?
                                  >
                                  > Some commentary on "the world's most peaceful
                                  > religion."...
                                  >
                                  > Effingham


                                  I see...I didn't figure you for the militant muslim
                                  type. You had me a little worried (letting real life
                                  as an Army officer step in).

                                  Shonaigawa

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                                • Barbara Nostrand
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Ason does not attach to another name element except for possibly clan name. You could say Mononobe no Ason or Totomi no
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig! Ason does not attach to another name element
                                    except for possibly clan name. You could say Mononobe no Ason or Totomi
                                    no Ason and it would make some sense for early period. Later on, there
                                    is really nothing to attach them to, they just get slotted in without a
                                    "no" being used. In very late documents, the kabane are actually written
                                    in smaller letters and offset slightly to the side of the rest of the
                                    entry.

                                    To the best of my knowledge, "meijin" is pretty much post-period. There
                                    are period titles and offices of mastery. For example, you could be
                                    appointed to a specific office within the imperial household responsible
                                    for providing pottery for the table of either the emperor, the empress,
                                    or the crown prince. There is also a Heian period honorific for masters
                                    of an art form. If I recall correctly, it is something like "dafu".
                                    Other possibilities include constructing a name ending in -shi which
                                    means "teacher" or "master".

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar
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                                  • Nate Ledbetter
                                    Minna-sama e moushi agemasu*: Okay, here s a question: I ve seen several people recently talking about names, and is it documented, etc. Is documentation of a
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                      Minna-sama e moushi agemasu*:

                                      Okay, here's a question: I've seen several people
                                      recently talking about names, and is it documented,
                                      etc. Is documentation of a name (I mean family name,
                                      essentially) necessary to be legal, or can it just be
                                      shown to possibly have been a name. For instance, I'm
                                      not aware of any Shonaigawa-ke in history--that's kind
                                      of why I liked it, because it meant something to me (I
                                      lived by the Shonaigawa (river) when I lived in
                                      Nagoya) and taking names from place names was fairly
                                      common, if I recall.

                                      Shikaraba, gomen*

                                      Shonaigawa

                                      *I humbly speak to all present:

                                      *if that is all, please excuse me (I think)*

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                                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                                      ... You might as well have, considering I wrote the whole post under that premise. ... Actually, some may be names, some may be novelists creations to
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                        Nate Ledbetter wrote:

                                        > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                        > if we don't know her name,
                                        > > > where has the Oichi come from?
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > LOL! You know, I remembered that after I sent it.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > DANG!!! I was hoping finally I might have caught
                                        > something you didn't!!! LOL!!
                                        >

                                        You might as well have, considering I wrote the whole post under that premise.
                                        <G>

                                        >
                                        > > I've been doing a translation of a book and the
                                        > > section I just finished was
                                        > > talking about Odani-no-kata's three daughters, one
                                        > > of whom became a wife of
                                        > > Hideyoshi, one of whom became the wife of #2 shogun
                                        > > Hidetada (mom of #3
                                        > > Iemitsu) and... well, the third <G>. Except for
                                        > > Yodo-gimi, they're nameless,
                                        > > and I think I was focusing on them at the time, as
                                        > > these famous women
                                        > > marrying powerful men, and they're known to history
                                        > > by the wing of the
                                        > > castle they lived in. <G>
                                        >
                                        > Really?? I knew Chacha/Yodogimi of course, but I could
                                        > have sworn that somewhere the others were referred to
                                        > by name...maybe they made some up for the Hideyoshi
                                        > Taiga drama, and that's where I heard them. Darn.
                                        >

                                        Actually, some may be names, some may be novelists' creations to supply the
                                        missing information. Although they're historically based, all the Taiga Dramas
                                        are, after all, based on historical novels by my understanding.

                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > But you're right, Nobunaga's favorite sister *was*
                                        > > O-Ichi (and for those who
                                        > > don't know, IIRC, the kanji was "town" ichi, not
                                        > > "one" ichi).
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > And supposedly quite the "Betty", from what I hear...
                                        >

                                        Oh, yeah. <G>

                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > I once brought up the issue of women's onomastics
                                        > > resources in Japan with a
                                        > > prof there. He said, "You know who 'Sei Shonagon'
                                        > > is, right?" and I said
                                        > > yes. He said "Then what difference does it make if
                                        > > you call her Sei Shonagon
                                        > > or Kiyowara Nagiko? And what difference if she
                                        > > served Teishi or Sadako? It's
                                        > > the same person."
                                        > >
                                        > > Somehow, I don't think he quite grasped my problem.
                                        > > <G>
                                        >
                                        > Don't you just hate that? Almost as frustrating to me
                                        > anyways is the ever-changing men's names: Is he Baba
                                        > Nobuharu or Nobufusa? I think they just went by
                                        > "title" (Baba Mino-no-kami Nobu SOMETHING) since they
                                        > couldn't ever remember each other's names!!
                                        >

                                        Good point.

                                        "My Lord Motoyasu..."
                                        "That's Ieyasu, I changed it on Tuesday."
                                        "Ah, er... My Lord Ie... ummm.... Lord Matsudaira..."
                                        "Nope, we went back to Tokugawa last month."
                                        "...sigh...."

                                        >
                                        > Of course, even more frustrating to me is when a book
                                        > refers to an individual throughout his whole life...in
                                        > 1575 there was NO TOYOTOMI HIDEYOSHI!! It was Hashiba
                                        > Hideyoshi, dang it! and before that it was Kinoshita
                                        > Tokichiro!!
                                        >

                                        Well, to be fair, it's a historical work. It's like referring to Kyoto in
                                        histories about Kamakura and Muromachi, or talking about York instead of
                                        Eboricum. It provides a point of reference for readers which won't confuse them.
                                        Especially when you deal with people who change names at the drop of an eboshi.

                                        >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > And just out of curiousity, what's with the Quran
                                        > > > verses at the bottom there?
                                        > >
                                        > > Some commentary on "the world's most peaceful
                                        > > religion."...
                                        > >
                                        > > Effingham
                                        >
                                        > I see...I didn't figure you for the militant muslim
                                        > type. You had me a little worried (letting real life
                                        > as an Army officer step in).

                                        Anything but. As (1) an Orthodox Christian, and (2) a half-Arab-American, I have
                                        less than no use for Islam.


                                        Effingham
                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                        ... ASON: Variant ASOMI. Until Heian Period, ason ; From the medieval period, also asomi. 1) Asomi (q.v.) 2) Title of honor or familiar term attached to the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                          Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                          > Noble Cousin!
                                          >
                                          > Greetings from Solveig! Ason does not attach to another name element
                                          > except for possibly clan name.

                                          From the Obunsha kogo jiten:
                                          --------
                                          ASON:
                                          Variant ASOMI. Until Heian Period, "ason"; From the medieval period, also
                                          "asomi."
                                          1) Asomi (q.v.)
                                          2) Title of honor or familiar term attached to the surname of those above
                                          fifth court rank
                                          (a) For those above third rank, attached to the surname, first name is
                                          not written ("Tachibana-Ason" etc.).
                                          (b) For those of fourth rank, it is attached to either the given- or
                                          surname ("Ariwara no Narihira-Ason" etc.).
                                          (c) For those of fifth rank, it is attached between the given- and
                                          surname.
                                          3) Used as a third-person or second-person personal pronoun. "Anata."
                                          "Kimi."
                                          ---------

                                          > To the best of my knowledge, "meijin" is pretty much post-period.

                                          I could be wrong, but I thought the Korean phrenologist who examines the
                                          young Prince Genji was a "meijin."

                                          > There
                                          > are period titles and offices of mastery. For example, you could be
                                          > appointed to a specific office within the imperial household responsible
                                          > for providing pottery for the table of either the emperor, the empress,
                                          > or the crown prince. There is also a Heian period honorific for masters
                                          > of an art form. If I recall correctly, it is something like "dafu".
                                          > Other possibilities include constructing a name ending in -shi which
                                          > means "teacher" or "master".

                                          There is a reason why I object strongly to such titles.

                                          They are *specific* titles/jobs for specific functions; our knights are
                                          *not* generals, and our Laurels are *not* mistresses of the wardrobe and our
                                          Pelicans are *not* undersecretary of the commisariat of shrines and temples.

                                          That's why I try to find a rank title that is appropriate, rather than give
                                          people a title that they don't actually *own*, and why I don't make award
                                          scrolls referring to awards of horses or land because they aren't being
                                          awarded horses or land.


                                          Effingham
                                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                                          ... I think it should be more than acceptable, given the tradition of taking names in that way. We can point to hundreds of famous surnames that were all taken
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                            Nate Ledbetter wrote:

                                            > Minna-sama e moushi agemasu*:
                                            >
                                            > Okay, here's a question: I've seen several people
                                            > recently talking about names, and is it documented,
                                            > etc. Is documentation of a name (I mean family name,
                                            > essentially) necessary to be legal, or can it just be
                                            > shown to possibly have been a name. For instance, I'm
                                            > not aware of any Shonaigawa-ke in history--that's kind
                                            > of why I liked it, because it meant something to me (I
                                            > lived by the Shonaigawa (river) when I lived in
                                            > Nagoya) and taking names from place names was fairly
                                            > common, if I recall.
                                            >

                                            I think it should be more than acceptable, given the tradition of taking names in
                                            that way. We can point to hundreds of famous surnames that were all taken from
                                            the locale the first bearer of the name lived. Heck, there are even surnames
                                            taken from TEMPLES.

                                            Heck, when I started using Hiraizumi, a few people suggested that it wasn't a
                                            surname, just a city, because we didn't have any on hand examples of it as a
                                            name.

                                            Well, I'm currently translating a history book written by Professor Hiraizumi
                                            Kiyoshi. You do the math. <G>

                                            Effingham
                                          • Nate Ledbetter
                                            ... YATTA!!! Although they re historically ... Good point...it was almost like reading Yoshikawa Eiji. ... LITERALLY ALMOST FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR I WAS LAUGHING
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                              --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                                              > > DANG!!! I was hoping finally I might have caught
                                              > > something you didn't!!! LOL!!
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > You might as well have, considering I wrote the
                                              > whole post under that premise.
                                              > <G>

                                              YATTA!!!

                                              Although they're historically
                                              > based, all the Taiga Dramas
                                              > are, after all, based on historical novels by my
                                              > understanding.

                                              Good point...it was almost like reading Yoshikawa
                                              Eiji.

                                              >
                                              > "My Lord Motoyasu..."
                                              > "That's Ieyasu, I changed it on Tuesday."
                                              > "Ah, er... My Lord Ie... ummm.... Lord
                                              > Matsudaira..."
                                              > "Nope, we went back to Tokugawa last month."
                                              > "...sigh...."

                                              LITERALLY ALMOST FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR I WAS LAUGHING
                                              SO HARD....and don't forget at one point he was
                                              Motonobu, also...

                                              Shonaigawa


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                                            • Barbara Nostrand
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The Rules for Submission of the College of Arms for the Society of Creative Anachronism essentially ask you to come up
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig! The Rules for Submission of the College of
                                                Arms for the Society of Creative Anachronism essentially ask you
                                                to come up with a name which an ordinary type noble might actually
                                                have used prior to 1601. This doesn't mean that you have to find
                                                someone with that name. In fact, you are not supposed to call yourself
                                                by the same name as someone famous. So, you should not call yourself
                                                Henry Plantaginet or something like that.

                                                If you pick a non-unique (e.g., not Toyotomi) historical surname, then
                                                you have a "smoking gun" as far as documentation is concerned. You can
                                                make up surnames, you just have to be a bit more careful, and engage
                                                in a bit more documentation.

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar
                                                --
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                                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                                Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Chacha (tea-tea) is a real feminine name dating from the period of interest. It appears in History of Japanese Feminine
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                                  Noble Cousins!

                                                  Greetings from Solveig! Chacha (tea-tea) is a real feminine name dating
                                                  from the period of interest. It appears in History of Japanese Feminine
                                                  Names and in my pamphlet.

                                                  Your Humble Servant
                                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Amateur Scholar
                                                  --
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                                                • Barbara Nostrand
                                                  Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! I don t have a Japanese copy of Genjimonogatari here to check on what the Korean phrenologist calls Genji, but even if he
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 4, 2001
                                                    Baron Edward!

                                                    Greetings from Solveig! I don't have a Japanese copy of Genjimonogatari
                                                    here to check on what the Korean phrenologist calls Genji, but even if
                                                    he does call Genji a "meijin" he could easily be meaning something
                                                    rather different that what is being sought in this instance.

                                                    As I noted, the attachment of kabane in official documents which I
                                                    have a facsimile of is less than linear. As the kabane were originally
                                                    clan titles, I suppose that you can associate them with the surname,
                                                    but I'm less than convinced that you insert the -no- unless we can
                                                    find furigana that tells us that they were doing so. As I noted,
                                                    -no-ason makes loads of sense before the Taika reform, but after
                                                    the Taika reform, -no-ason makes considerably less sense although it
                                                    could be preserved in the same manner that lots of other stuff hangs
                                                    around in Japan.

                                                    Note to other people. This whole business about placement of -no
                                                    in Japanese names is not completely understood even in academic
                                                    circles. There was a discussion about this sort of thing just a
                                                    couple of months ago on the pmjs mailing list.

                                                    A problem with "ason" is that it is generic for ALL titles, awards,
                                                    and other doo-hickies of the appropriate rank. If "ason" is used
                                                    to denote the peerage, then it equally applies to Knights, Laurels,
                                                    and Pelicans. While this may actually be desirable, and I have
                                                    argued for instituting a pan-peerage title, the Society has not seen
                                                    fit to ascede to my wishes.

                                                    Ahh. But, I rather do think of our knights as being generals. Otherwise,
                                                    you have to try to translate Arthurian romanticism into Japanese in
                                                    which case you don't get any of the court rank stuff either. You get
                                                    "roma" and that's about all you get. Also, I am reliably informed by
                                                    a former kingdom principle herald that the kings rather enjoy being
                                                    called "barbarian suppressing generalissimo."

                                                    >That's why I try to find a rank title that is appropriate, rather than give
                                                    >people a title that they don't actually *own*, and why I don't make award
                                                    >scrolls referring to awards of horses or land because they aren't being
                                                    >awarded horses or land.

                                                    I will admit to giving a knight horses as part of his peerage scroll.
                                                    Do you know why? Because, his knight asked me to, and I thought I
                                                    could come up with a reasonable way to do so. A very interesting thing
                                                    about that particular scroll is that afterwards someone who publicly
                                                    says that they detest me sought me out and complimented me on the
                                                    scroll precisely because it gave the recipient enumerated rights and
                                                    privileges.

                                                    In the Society, nobody repeat nobody not even our kings really owns
                                                    squat. It all, repeat after me, all belongs to a not for profit
                                                    public benefit 501(c)3 corporation. But, our rituals are about
                                                    evoking a sense of thereness where we would have real rights and
                                                    real privileges. Our knights (especially Japanese knights) really
                                                    should have people following them into battle. A lone warrior in
                                                    Japan is last I heard a ronin. In short, unemployed riff-raff. Not
                                                    the knight errant of Western fantasy literature. Nor William the
                                                    Marshal. Even Momotarô-kun acquires followers and commands a small
                                                    fighting force. So, I try to make my unworthy scrolls into orders
                                                    commanding the recipient to do something or other such as defend the
                                                    border lands or some such thing or appoint them to some office or other
                                                    which can not possibly conflict with offices defined by Corpora.
                                                    Usually, this is something that they have already been doing anyway.
                                                    (Note. Lucan of the East Kingdom has been known to hand out this
                                                    sort of honour to Europeans, so it is pretty reasonable to do
                                                    this sort of thing for Japanese.)

                                                    Final note. Do you know what the rights and privileges conferred by
                                                    academic degrees really are? They are the right to wear funky clothes
                                                    while participating in funky public ceremonies. An MD does not give
                                                    you the right to practice medicine nor does a JD give you the right
                                                    to practice Law or a Ph.D. in clinical psychology the right to hang
                                                    out your shingle as a psychologist. All of those rights are actually
                                                    conferred by licenses for which the funky degree may be part of the
                                                    entry ticket to the examination room.

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar
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                                                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                    ... Reread the post. The *prenologist* was a meijin. I think... ... *That s* what I meant by you have to get beyond the kabane =~= name thing. In late
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Oct 6, 2001
                                                      Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                                      > Baron Edward!
                                                      >
                                                      > Greetings from Solveig! I don't have a Japanese copy of Genjimonogatari
                                                      > here to check on what the Korean phrenologist calls Genji, but even if
                                                      > he does call Genji a "meijin" he could easily be meaning something
                                                      > rather different that what is being sought in this instance.
                                                      >

                                                      Reread the post. <G>

                                                      The *prenologist* was a meijin. I think...

                                                      >
                                                      > As I noted, the attachment of kabane in official documents which I
                                                      > have a facsimile of is less than linear. As the kabane were originally
                                                      > clan titles, I suppose that you can associate them with the surname,

                                                      *That's* what I meant by "you have to get beyond the kabane =~= name thing. In
                                                      late Heian and beyond, it was a *title*.

                                                      >
                                                      > but I'm less than convinced that you insert the -no- unless we can
                                                      > find furigana that tells us that they were doing so.

                                                      Pardon the Japanese, folks.

                                                      From names in an entry in the Azuma Kagami dated 1191.1.15

                                                      前の掃部の頭藤原のの朝臣親能
                                                      前の隼人の佐三善の朝臣康清
                                                      民部の丞平の朝臣盛時
                                                      左京の進中原の朝臣仲業
                                                      内舎人藤原の朝臣遠景

                                                      From the beginning of one of the poems in the Shika Wakashu:

                                                      橘としつなの朝臣

                                                      From an entry in the Heike Monogatari (with the furigana supplied by
                                                      parenthesis)

                                                      太政大臣(だいじやうだいじん)平(たひらの)朝臣(あそん)清盛公(きよもりこ
                                                      う)

                                                      Ditto on parenthetical furigana, from the Masu Kagami:

                                                      時頼(ときより)の朝臣(あそん)の子時宗(ときむね)

                                                      I don't think the editors would be using the "-no" unless they knew what they
                                                      were doing. <G>

                                                      > As I noted,
                                                      > -no-ason makes loads of sense before the Taika reform, but after
                                                      > the Taika reform, -no-ason makes considerably less sense although it
                                                      > could be preserved in the same manner that lots of other stuff hangs
                                                      > around in Japan.
                                                      >

                                                      As you say, things hang around. <G>

                                                      All those quoted names were WAY post Taika.

                                                      You know, I *do* usually look these things up; it's what I do.

                                                      >
                                                      > Note to other people. This whole business about placement of -no
                                                      > in Japanese names is not completely understood even in academic
                                                      > circles. There was a discussion about this sort of thing just a
                                                      > couple of months ago on the pmjs mailing list.

                                                      Yes, but it was regarding "how far along do you use '-no' with clan names"; and
                                                      it was general consensus that as long as the surnames were also being treated
                                                      as house names (e.g., Taira, Minamoto, Fujiwara) you used the "-no", and that
                                                      by the 1400s in most cases and definitely with normal surnames it was gone. <G>

                                                      At any rate, that is an irrelevant issue when the attachment of titles to names
                                                      is the issue. Using "-no" with a title is not the same as "-no" with a name.

                                                      >
                                                      > A problem with "ason" is that it is generic for ALL titles, awards,
                                                      > and other doo-hickies of the appropriate rank. If "ason" is used
                                                      > to denote the peerage, then it equally applies to Knights, Laurels,
                                                      > and Pelicans.

                                                      Well, duh. <G>

                                                      That's the idea.

                                                      It's like the title "Master" -- it's non specific as to duty (MSCA, OL, OPel)
                                                      but specific as to RANK. That's what I'm trying to do, come up with an
                                                      equivalent Japanese rank structure that can cross-port with the SCA rank
                                                      structure.

                                                      Most of the titles you seem to favor aren't RANK titles so much as actual JOB
                                                      titles. And *that* is problematic to me, as job rank and title rank aren't the
                                                      same in the SCA. As I often say, not all knights marshall are knights, and
                                                      there's no rule that kingdom seneschals have to be peers. In a Japanese system,
                                                      the rank would match the job description; and we are not in a Japanese system.

                                                      >
                                                      > Ahh. But, I rather do think of our knights as being generals.

                                                      Well, feel free, but they're not. Even in period, not all knights were
                                                      "generals". Some kingdoms have specific positions for generals of their armies.
                                                      Most knights I know have a household of squires and so on, but that hardly
                                                      qualifies them for the title "general." I would restrict that title to someone
                                                      the king has seen fit to bestow it on, and to someone who actually performs the
                                                      duties of one.

                                                      > Otherwise,
                                                      > you have to try to translate Arthurian romanticism into Japanese in
                                                      > which case you don't get any of the court rank stuff either. You get
                                                      > "roma" and that's about all you get. Also, I am reliably informed by
                                                      > a former kingdom principle herald that the kings rather enjoy being
                                                      > called "barbarian suppressing generalissimo."
                                                      >

                                                      Fine, they can like it, but Corporate rules say that our kings *aren't* shogun.

                                                      Shogun are military warlords, which may in fact fit the way our kings come to
                                                      power better than the European mode, but -- and this is an important but --
                                                      they are KINGS. They are ROYALTY. Not commoners with military power, but
                                                      ROYALTY. In Japan, there's one royalty: the Sovereign, the Tenno Heika.

                                                      >
                                                      > >That's why I try to find a rank title that is appropriate, rather than give
                                                      > >people a title that they don't actually *own*, and why I don't make award
                                                      > >scrolls referring to awards of horses or land because they aren't being
                                                      > >awarded horses or land.
                                                      >
                                                      > I will admit to giving a knight horses as part of his peerage scroll.
                                                      > Do you know why? Because, his knight asked me to, and I thought I
                                                      > could come up with a reasonable way to do so.

                                                      *HIS* Knight doesn't matter a darn about this. His knight didn't sign it and
                                                      put the kingdom seal on it, did he? No, the KING did (unless the king was his
                                                      knight, in which case it was boneheaded). Our scrolls are legal documents and
                                                      should not be full of things that are untrue. For one, it means the king is a
                                                      liar. "Hey, your maj, where's my horse? You promised me one, even put the seal
                                                      on it."

                                                      This is the type of thing that I will decry until the end of my days. It is
                                                      wrong, wrong, wrong.

                                                      > A very interesting thing
                                                      > about that particular scroll is that afterwards someone who publicly
                                                      > says that they detest me sought me out and complimented me on the
                                                      > scroll precisely because it gave the recipient enumerated rights and
                                                      > privileges.
                                                      >

                                                      Including rights and privelages that were totally hollow, false, and
                                                      meaningless; thereby demeaning everything else.

                                                      >
                                                      > In the Society, nobody repeat nobody not even our kings really owns
                                                      > squat. It all, repeat after me, all belongs to a not for profit
                                                      > public benefit 501(c)3 corporation. But, our rituals are about
                                                      > evoking a sense of thereness where we would have real rights and
                                                      > real privileges. Our knights (especially Japanese knights) really
                                                      > should have people following them into battle.

                                                      They do -- their households, typically.

                                                      > A lone warrior in
                                                      > Japan is last I heard a ronin. In short, unemployed riff-raff. Not
                                                      > the knight errant of Western fantasy literature. Nor William the
                                                      > Marshal. Even Momotar�kun acquires followers and commands a small
                                                      > fighting force.

                                                      I think it depends greatly on the ronin, and the period. In the sengoku period,
                                                      few people really seem to have stayed ronin forever, given the great need for
                                                      trained fighting men. And not a few found another calling in the clergy or some
                                                      art field. This was also the time when many warriors were still attached to
                                                      land, so many just stayed farmers (especially after Hideyoshi's Sword Hunt and
                                                      after the proscription on upward mobility, when farmer-samurai were required to
                                                      decide which status they preferred, cause it would stick. <G>

                                                      > So, I try to make my unworthy scrolls into orders
                                                      > commanding the recipient to do something or other such as defend the
                                                      > border lands or some such thing or appoint them to some office or other
                                                      > which can not possibly conflict with offices defined by Corpora.

                                                      Again, something which I disagree with strongly.

                                                      Your mileage, obviously, differs. <G>

                                                      >
                                                      > Usually, this is something that they have already been doing anyway.
                                                      > (Note. Lucan of the East Kingdom has been known to hand out this
                                                      > sort of honour to Europeans, so it is pretty reasonable to do
                                                      > this sort of thing for Japanese.)
                                                      >

                                                      Well, yes. Lucan is... a special case. A nice fellow, but he's not My Type of
                                                      Royal. He was the one, you may know, who at the EK Heian court kept tilting his
                                                      cap off to a 45-degree angle (think cocky American soldier in WWII) because he
                                                      thought it was cooler than wearing straight.

                                                      >
                                                      > Final note. Do you know what the rights and privileges conferred by
                                                      > academic degrees really are? They are the right to wear funky clothes
                                                      > while participating in funky public ceremonies. An MD does not give
                                                      > you the right to practice medicine nor does a JD give you the right
                                                      > to practice Law or a Ph.D. in clinical psychology the right to hang
                                                      > out your shingle as a psychologist. All of those rights are actually
                                                      > conferred by licenses for which the funky degree may be part of the
                                                      > entry ticket to the examination room.

                                                      Yes, and they're also irrelevant. The entitling documents state clearly what
                                                      the rights and ranks are. They don't promise them -- or entitle them to --
                                                      university positions, cushy offices, underlings, or parking spaces. The scrolls
                                                      you favor would be the equivalent of the PhD diploma saying that.

                                                      Effingham
                                                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                      ... Yup, or you could drop the no if you want. I tend to keep it in because it separates the name from the title. For people who may only be marginally
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Oct 6, 2001
                                                        Elaine Koogler wrote:

                                                        > So, then, mine would come out as Minowara Kiritsubo-no-Ason?

                                                        Yup, or you could drop the "no" if you want. I tend to keep it in because it separates the
                                                        name from the title. For people who may only be marginally familiar with Japanese names, that
                                                        might help them figure that it's a title. Or it might not; depends on how clever and aware
                                                        the other folks are. <G>

                                                        > Where does the "meijin" that
                                                        > we talked about come in?

                                                        That's when someone's talking to you, instead of saying "yo, Kiri!" <G>

                                                        > (I think the second option you offered is probably the best
                                                        > one...unless I'm at a Japanese event)?

                                                        Agreed. No need to make the round-eyes' eyes rounder. <G>

                                                        Effingham
                                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                        ... You should see what we have to go through reading these *(#^*&#^*# things, when the person changes titles without the writer letting us know.... Effingham
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Oct 6, 2001
                                                          Nate Ledbetter wrote:

                                                          >
                                                          > > "My Lord Motoyasu..."
                                                          > > "That's Ieyasu, I changed it on Tuesday."
                                                          > > "Ah, er... My Lord Ie... ummm.... Lord
                                                          > > Matsudaira..."
                                                          > > "Nope, we went back to Tokugawa last month."
                                                          > > "...sigh...."
                                                          >
                                                          > LITERALLY ALMOST FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR I WAS LAUGHING
                                                          > SO HARD....and don't forget at one point he was
                                                          > Motonobu, also...
                                                          >

                                                          You should see what we have to go through reading these *(#^*&#^*# things, when
                                                          the person changes titles without the writer letting us know....


                                                          Effingham
                                                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                          ... It also appears on the label of a CD of dance music I own. Effingweird
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Oct 6, 2001
                                                            Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                                            > Noble Cousins!
                                                            >
                                                            > Greetings from Solveig! Chacha (tea-tea) is a real feminine name dating
                                                            > from the period of interest. It appears in History of Japanese Feminine
                                                            > Names and in my pamphlet.

                                                            It also appears on the label of a CD of dance music I own. <wink wink>

                                                            Effingweird
                                                          • Barbara Nostrand
                                                            Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! I believe that you are persisting in misreading me. Nowhere do I make the kabane = name equation. I am generally
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Oct 6, 2001
                                                              Baron Edward!

                                                              Greetings from Solveig! I believe that you are persisting in misreading
                                                              me. Nowhere do I make the kabane = name equation. I am generally
                                                              perplexed by the people that do as they generally function more as
                                                              titles even before the Taika reform. I have written and spoke at various
                                                              times about the titular origin of various Japanese name elements. I
                                                              intend to stand by that. However, the kabane do not seem to be a big
                                                              player in name formation.

                                                              Society scrolls are generally issued by the government and not by
                                                              any equivalent of an academic institution. If I were devising
                                                              scrolls for the Atlantian University or another SCA organization
                                                              which confers degrees, then I would attempt to write an appropriate
                                                              scrolls of that sort. Of course, if this were in a medieval Chinese
                                                              context, an academic degree would guarantee a cushy job. For that
                                                              matter, in various European countries the second doctorate pretty
                                                              much guarantees a job.

                                                              As for my quip about the "rights and privileges" of academic degrees,
                                                              that was one of my sporatic and generally unsuccessful attempts at
                                                              being witty.

                                                              Darn but I cann't find my abridged copy of the Azuma Kagami right now.
                                                              (Its bound together with an abridgement of Heike Monogatari.) This
                                                              is exactly the sort of thing that I like to go look at for myself.

                                                              One thing that is interesting about Ason in the examples you are
                                                              citing is its variable location. In the cases from the Tale of
                                                              the Heike, it is slotted in front of the nanori and in the Shika
                                                              Wakashu it is slotted after the nanori. One thing that I want to
                                                              do is go look at the original text and see how it is actually
                                                              written. In the quotation from the Heike Monogatari, they are
                                                              following the common practice of intertextual insertion of the
                                                              -no- which does not actually appear in the original text. The
                                                              honourifc -kô is duly noted and is one which I have either already
                                                              used or contemplated using in particularly high court appointments.

                                                              >Well, feel free, but they're not. Even in period, not all knights were
                                                              >"generals". Some kingdoms have specific positions for generals of
                                                              >their armies.
                                                              >Most knights I know have a household of squires and so on, but that hardly
                                                              >qualifies them for the title "general." I would restrict that title to someone
                                                              >the king has seen fit to bestow it on, and to someone who actually
                                                              >performs the
                                                              >duties of one.

                                                              In pre-1601 Western Europe, Knights were not peers. Our knighthood
                                                              doesn't even correspond well to the Order of the Garter which pretty
                                                              much is an order of peers.

                                                              >Fine, they can like it, but Corporate rules say that our kings
                                                              >*aren't* shogun.

                                                              Really? How so? They certainly aren't sarcedotal priest-kings which calling
                                                              them tenno makes them out to be. If anything, the current version of
                                                              Corpora is remarkably silent about this. Corpora talks about how kings
                                                              are chosen, about the rights, and about their responsibilities.

                                                              >Shogun are military warlords, which may in fact fit the way our kings come to
                                                              >power better than the European mode, but -- and this is an important but --
                                                              >they are KINGS. They are ROYALTY. Not commoners with military power, but
                                                              >ROYALTY. In Japan, there's one royalty: the Sovereign, the Tenno Heika.

                                                              The Tenno-heika is the big cheese rather like the Pope is the big cheese,
                                                              we might argue that the shugo were kings. Last I heard, some of the
                                                              Europeans on the spot made them out to be kings.

                                                              >*HIS* Knight doesn't matter a darn about this. His knight didn't sign it and
                                                              >put the kingdom seal on it, did he? No, the KING did (unless the king was his
                                                              >knight, in which case it was boneheaded). Our scrolls are legal documents and
                                                              >should not be full of things that are untrue. For one, it means the king is a
                                                              >liar. "Hey, your maj, where's my horse? You promised me one, even put the seal
                                                              >on it."

                                                              Actually, I probably put the kingdom seal on it if we must go into that.
                                                              The king did do the signing. As for appointment to honourary offices,
                                                              I suggest that you take that up with Duke Lucan as he is rather fond
                                                              of handing those out. As for his court demenour, people have been trying
                                                              to get him to sit without exposing himself for years now. Still, he is
                                                              the once and future king and gets to sit in the big chair with the big
                                                              hat on his head and hand out stuff to people. Giving out appointments as
                                                              "seamstress to the court" bothers me a LOT less than courts which drone on
                                                              and on with phrases such as "to be know throughout the Society for
                                                              Creative Anachronism Incorporated as ..."

                                                              Finally, giving people appointments to offices of various sorts instead
                                                              of court ranks better accomodates the title stacking that we in the
                                                              Society so commonly practice. I assume that once you get your Laurel
                                                              that people will start calling you Baron Master Master Edward of
                                                              Effingham.

                                                              Your Humble Servant
                                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                                              Amateur Schoalr

                                                              --
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