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Re: [SCA-JML] Digest Number 441

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  • Arelyx .
    ... not if your husband has died due to whatever causes, then you would be widowed and not technically married, i dont recall anything saying that Japanese
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 8 10:03 PM
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      > > Would it be unheard of to
      > > have an unmarried adult female persona during this
      > > era?


      not if your husband has died due to whatever causes, then you would be
      widowed and not technically married, i dont recall anything saying that
      Japanese women during the time were forced to remarry after the death of a
      husband....

      Rob
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    • logan@modzer0.cs.uaf.edu
      ... In fact, there are records of them continuing to hold their husband s land and property, giving it over to their sons upon their death. -Ii
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 8 10:14 PM
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        On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Arelyx . wrote:

        > not if your husband has died due to whatever causes, then you would be
        > widowed and not technically married, i dont recall anything saying that
        > Japanese women during the time were forced to remarry after the death of a
        > husband....

        In fact, there are records of them continuing to hold their husband's land
        and property, giving it over to their sons upon their death.

        -Ii
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! ... And then there is the traditional Japanese resident beside whom her American counterpart pales by comparison.
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 9 7:27 AM
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          Noble Cousins!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          >In fact, there are records of them continuing to hold their
          >husband's land and property, giving it over to their sons upon their
          >death.

          And then there is the traditional Japanese resident beside whom
          her American counterpart pales by comparison. Basically, a married
          man's mother has been known to rule his household. One can wonder
          whether part of the attraction of mistresses is the absence of
          one's own mother from these less official relationships.

          Incidentally. I've thought a bit more about how to dispell the
          critics faced by our new member. Tell the them that you are
          doing some serious persona research. Every once in a while tell
          them about something that you have discovered so that they know
          that you are doing it. Seriously. Virtually nobody who is not
          themselves interested in Japan is going to explore the stuff
          that you are going to investigate.

          They are ultimately blowing smoke because they think that they
          do not like Japanese. Just try to be as admirable in what you
          do as possible. I have heard people chorus that "we know that
          there was no contact between Japan and Europe prior to 1601
          because Japan was a closed country." When told that, no the
          Portugese and the Spanish were quite active there, they have
          then chorused "We know that no Japanese came to Europe prior
          to 1601." Also a counterfactual notion. One detractor posted
          a few years ago that Europeans and especially the pope would
          refuse to consort with Japanese unless they dressed and behaved
          as Europeans. Another mistaken notion. When the Japanese envoyes
          arrived in Italy, the pope insisted that they enter Rome in state
          riding on hourseback in their best Japanese finery. (ref. Sansom)
          I think that people have overlearned this business about Cmdr.
          Perry and the opening of Japan. Japan was not closed during
          period. There were times when Japan was not interested in
          diplomatic relations with China and Korea, but during those
          periods, merchants still continued to travel between Japan and
          the continent.

          So what can you do? Demonstrating contact, &c. is not gauranteed
          to work as many anti-Asians in the Society are not really
          proceeding on the basis of scholarship, but out of shared bias.
          Thus, I believe that the best thing for you to do is to simply
          outdo your neighbors in the areas of research and recreation of
          real historical stuff. Discover stuff about Japan which is
          fun, and share that fun with others around you.

          Gambate!

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          --
          +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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        • Nate Ledbetter
          ... WELL SAID!! Shonaigawa __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 9 10:18 AM
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            --- Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...> wrote:
            > Noble Cousins!
            >
            > Greetings from Solveig!
            >
            > Incidentally. I've thought a bit more about how to
            > dispell the
            > critics faced by our new member. Tell the them that
            > you are
            > doing some serious persona research. Every once in a
            > while tell
            > them about something that you have discovered so
            > that they know
            > that you are doing it. Seriously. Virtually nobody
            > who is not
            > themselves interested in Japan is going to explore
            > the stuff
            > that you are going to investigate.
            >
            > They are ultimately blowing smoke because they think
            > that they
            > do not like Japanese. Just try to be as admirable in
            > what you
            > do as possible. I have heard people chorus that "we
            > know that
            > there was no contact between Japan and Europe prior
            > to 1601
            > because Japan was a closed country." When told that,
            > no the
            > Portugese and the Spanish were quite active there,
            > they have
            > then chorused "We know that no Japanese came to
            > Europe prior
            > to 1601." Also a counterfactual notion. One
            > detractor posted
            > a few years ago that Europeans and especially the
            > pope would
            > refuse to consort with Japanese unless they dressed
            > and behaved
            > as Europeans. Another mistaken notion. When the
            > Japanese envoyes
            > arrived in Italy, the pope insisted that they enter
            > Rome in state
            > riding on hourseback in their best Japanese finery.
            > (ref. Sansom)
            > I think that people have overlearned this business
            > about Cmdr.
            > Perry and the opening of Japan. Japan was not closed
            > during
            > period. There were times when Japan was not
            > interested in
            > diplomatic relations with China and Korea, but
            > during those
            > periods, merchants still continued to travel between
            > Japan and
            > the continent.
            >
            > So what can you do? Demonstrating contact, &c. is
            > not gauranteed
            > to work as many anti-Asians in the Society are not
            > really
            > proceeding on the basis of scholarship, but out of
            > shared bias.
            > Thus, I believe that the best thing for you to do is
            > to simply
            > outdo your neighbors in the areas of research and
            > recreation of
            > real historical stuff. Discover stuff about Japan
            > which is
            > fun, and share that fun with others around you.
            >
            > Gambate!

            WELL SAID!!

            Shonaigawa

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
            http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
          • debbie strub
            Greetings, Yeah! What she said! I ve been doing a Japanese persona for most of my time in the SCA (20+ years) and have actually been told to my face that I
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 9 6:17 PM
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              Greetings,

              Yeah! What she said!
              I've been doing a Japanese persona for most of my time in the SCA
              (20+ years) and have actually been told to my face that I had no business
              being in the SCA with a Japanese persona since it was "exclusively" for
              European personae. Trying to argue with anti-Japanese biased people just
              does no good. And pointing out that you have to research and work twice as
              hard to be seen as half as good as the European personae just annoys
              them. Don't let them get you down!!

              YIS,

              Tsuruko

              At 10:27 AM 7/9/2001 -0400, Barbara Nostrand wrote:
              >Noble Cousins!
              >
              >Greetings from Solveig!
              >
              > >In fact, there are records of them continuing to hold their
              > >husband's land and property, giving it over to their sons upon their
              > >death.
              >
              >And then there is the traditional Japanese resident beside whom
              >her American counterpart pales by comparison. Basically, a married
              >man's mother has been known to rule his household. One can wonder
              >whether part of the attraction of mistresses is the absence of
              >one's own mother from these less official relationships.
              >
              >Incidentally. I've thought a bit more about how to dispell the
              >critics faced by our new member. Tell the them that you are
              >doing some serious persona research. Every once in a while tell
              >them about something that you have discovered so that they know
              >that you are doing it. Seriously. Virtually nobody who is not
              >themselves interested in Japan is going to explore the stuff
              >that you are going to investigate.
              >
              >They are ultimately blowing smoke because they think that they
              >do not like Japanese. Just try to be as admirable in what you
              >do as possible. I have heard people chorus that "we know that
              >there was no contact between Japan and Europe prior to 1601
              >because Japan was a closed country." When told that, no the
              >Portugese and the Spanish were quite active there, they have
              >then chorused "We know that no Japanese came to Europe prior
              >to 1601." Also a counterfactual notion. One detractor posted
              >a few years ago that Europeans and especially the pope would
              >refuse to consort with Japanese unless they dressed and behaved
              >as Europeans. Another mistaken notion. When the Japanese envoyes
              >arrived in Italy, the pope insisted that they enter Rome in state
              >riding on hourseback in their best Japanese finery. (ref. Sansom)
              >I think that people have overlearned this business about Cmdr.
              >Perry and the opening of Japan. Japan was not closed during
              >period. There were times when Japan was not interested in
              >diplomatic relations with China and Korea, but during those
              >periods, merchants still continued to travel between Japan and
              >the continent.
              >
              >So what can you do? Demonstrating contact, &c. is not gauranteed
              >to work as many anti-Asians in the Society are not really
              >proceeding on the basis of scholarship, but out of shared bias.
              >Thus, I believe that the best thing for you to do is to simply
              >outdo your neighbors in the areas of research and recreation of
              >real historical stuff. Discover stuff about Japan which is
              >fun, and share that fun with others around you.
              >
              >Gambate!
              >
              > Your Humble Servant
              > Solveig Throndardottir
              > Amateur Scholar
              >
              >--
              >+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
              >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
              >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              >+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
              >| Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
              >| vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
              >| netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
              >| com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
              >| mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
              >| techie.com, msn.com |
              >+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
              >
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            • logan@modzer0.cs.uaf.edu
              ... As I recall, Cmdr. Perry was impressive in his Black Ships, but he hardly opened Japan single-handedly. The British and Portugese had already negotiated
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 9 6:41 PM
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                On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                > I think that people have overlearned this business about Cmdr.
                > Perry and the opening of Japan. Japan was not closed during
                > period. There were times when Japan was not interested in
                > diplomatic relations with China and Korea, but during those
                > periods, merchants still continued to travel between Japan and
                > the continent.

                As I recall, Cmdr. Perry was impressive in his Black Ships, but he hardly
                opened Japan single-handedly. The British and Portugese had already
                negotiated something, IIRC.

                Also, as to how closed Japan was during this time, I've found 'Kaempher's
                Japan' to be quite an amazing read. It was written by a European
                (Kaempher[sp?]) who traveled through Japan in the late 17th C, IIRC
                (Sorry, can't find the book right off hand). While he was hardly a
                typical example, it is a good look at the Edo Period from a Western
                perspective.

                -Ii
              • Barbara Nostrand
                Ii Dono! Greetings from Solveig Kaempher was (as I recall) a German physician. I believe that he was attached to the Dutch trade mission on the artificial
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 9 10:55 PM
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                  Ii Dono!

                  Greetings from Solveig Kaempher was (as I recall) a German
                  physician. I believe that he was attached to the Dutch
                  trade mission on the artificial island in Nagasaki harbor.
                  The were various times when deligations from the island
                  were required to visit the governmental offices. The
                  expulsion edict generally applied to Europeans and a
                  special exception was made for Dutch and English trade
                  missions which seemed less interested in establishing
                  Catholic hegemony and more interested in trade. Later
                  on, the English gave up, but the Dutch mission persisted
                  till the "opening" of Japan in the 19th century.

                  Many Japanese physicians were interested in "Dutch Medicine"
                  and were probably rather eager to meet Kaempher.

                  As for Cmdr Perry's black ships. They were indeed quite
                  impressive. The paintings of his ships are what you always
                  encounter in Japanese history books covering the period.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
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