Re: Blackened Teeth & Ancient Names
> I have to disagree with Effingham here, Stephen. Although certainlyhave
> experts who have studied the subject for entire careers certainly
> knowledge that you nor I ever will, there have been amazingdiscoveries
> made by amateurs in many disciplines. Sometimes it is the "new setof
> eyes" that sees the thing that the experts have been missing. SuchThank you Kass, that gives me hope. :) Because Lady Solveig is right,
> enlightenments have happened in the disciplines of clothing history,
> astronomy, archeology...
it is a losing battle, and it sure feels like it. What you said gives
me drive to try, at least.
> I wouldn't "give up" if I were you. I would investigate it towhatever
> level you desire. But do always make people aware which of yourhypotheses
> are based on concrete evidence and which are "educated guesses".Oh, certainly. Doing early Spanish clothing, music, and Judaism, I
have to tell people that some of this stuff I don't know (heck, a lot
of it nobody knows), and I'm just going on "educated guesses."
- Noble Cousin!
Greetings from Solveig!
>Hmm...I realize that part, but did the other ha/hi/he/ho sounds justGenerally speaking all of the columns follow suit. The H-column is
>follow the fu's suit?
a bit odd as there are two versions of voicing it. Also, the
voiced versions tend to involve a kind of bilabial stop. So it
is not strictly simply a matter of voicing them. Regardless K-
and G- are still more strongly related as G- is pretty much a
voiced K- and involves a kind of glottal stop whereas the H-
variants involve bilabial stops. Producing a glottal stop
generally involves tong motion not involved in producing a
>I don't want to dig myself any deeper in this than I am already, butAhh. What they are saying is that there was greater lip closure
>as for the g and h thing, sometimes distinct production mechanisms can
>make little difference in a consonant shift, like the one from j/g
>(sounded like modern French "j" in medieval Spanish) to a harsh h in
>modern Spanish. I was just trying to find out why they say modern
>japanese h's used to be p's when it doesn't seem like there should be
>a relationship between the two. Do you actually know why?
than at present. Essentially, it is impossible to voice the H
column without turning it into a bilabial.
> > The best thing is not to try to play catchup in any field as that isPlease don't feel discouraged. It's just that you have to run
>> generally a loosing strategy.
>yes, that has become apparent... :(
twice as fast if you go chasing after a group of people making
forward progress. That doesn't mean that you can not learn more
about Japanese linguistics than the people here. It just means that
you should go out and read some linguistics books first. However,
if you want to be a leader in some area, it is best to find
some field where you can break new ground.
Why not go get a copy of Roy Andrew Miller's book on Japanese
linguistics. It's pretty good. There are others that I can
recommend as well. There is also a spiffy book called "The
Languages of Japan" which has sections on the Ainu language
and the Okinawan language as well. I you are fortunate enough
to be an undergraduate, then please take a course or two in
linguistics. I don't know of anyone anyone in the Society that
has done serious work with the Ainu language. I have a short
popular introduction to the language written in Japanese, but
that doesn't count. We can be quite confident that the Ainu
were in at least some parts of Japan before the Japanese
Finally, please take to heart a famous aphorism. I think it was
Newton. I do not have a quotations book here. Regardless it goes
I see farther because I stand on the shoulders of Giants.
What this means is that you should try to go out and learn what
has already been discovered and conjectured about your field of
study before becoming overly attached to your own theories.
Your Humble Servant
| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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- On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Stephen Higa wrote:
> Well, I'm just wondering...I mean, I'm somewhat familiar with theI would suggest you go ahead and get the suggested reading material or
> linguistic periods in Europe that one has to know to do the medieval
> and renaissance music I'm interested in (i.e. Occitan, Iberian
> languages, English, French, Arabic, Hebrew), but I don't know about
> Japanese linguistics aside from what one gets when one speaks a
> little of it conversationally (i.e., not much). I thought perhaps
> this would be a good place to ask, because linguistics texts can be
> overwhelming when jumping in cold turkey.
> I don't want to dig myself any deeper in this than I am already, but
> as for the g and h thing, sometimes distinct production mechanisms can
> make little difference in a consonant shift, like the one from j/g
> (sounded like modern French "j" in medieval Spanish) to a harsh h in
> modern Spanish. I was just trying to find out why they say modern
> japanese h's used to be p's when it doesn't seem like there should be
> a relationship between the two. Do you actually know why?
take a course on linquistics--Japanese in particular. However, since you
have asked, I will try to remember everything that I had been taught in my
linguistics class and see what I can do for you here.
First of all, the issue of p -> h; in case you aren't interested in the
rest just yet ;) I'm going to also try and define the various terms as I
am not sure if you or others are familiar with them. As a disclaimer,
when I say 'English' I am talking about English as it is taught in
most American schools.
As was mentioned, pu->fu is the same path that all of the 'h' series took.
That is, p->f->h. The first is an unvoiced bilabial plosive. The second
is an unvoiced bilablial fricative (note that it is actually different
from the English 'f' which is labio-dental). The H is an unvoiced glottal
Voiced refers to whether or not the larynx is vibrating when the sound is
produced. Put your hand on your throat and you can feel it-- k is
unvoiced, g is voiced; s is unvoiced, z is voiced; t is unvoiced, d is
voiced. See a pattern? More on that later.
The terms 'bilabial', 'labio-dental', and 'glottal' refer to where the
sound is produced. Bilabial means that it is produced with both lips.
'p', 'b', and 'm' are all Bilabial in English.
Labio-dental means that it is produced with one lip and one set of teeth
(lower lip, teeth of the upper jaw). The English 'f' and 'v' are
Glottal refers to the back of the throat. I believe that it is about as
far back as we really go in English.
The next part has to do with how the sound is created. A plosive (think
'explode' or 'implode') is where we close off a part of our mouth and then
build up air, releasing it to form the sound (p, t, d, g, k, for example).
A fricative is when the sound is caused by friction between the parts of
the mouth. 'f','v','s', and 'z' are some examples of fricatives.
Now, another aspect of all of this is the voicing, which I touched on
briefly before. Now look at all the Japanese characters that take two
'ten-ten' marks. That mark turns ka to ga, sa to za, etc. In each case,
it adds the quality of making those sounds 'voiced'. For the 'h' series
we therefore get 'b' because it is the voiced version of 'p' (Now, why
they still kept the 'p' sound for some things I'm not sure. I am curious
as to why that survived).
Also notice that ma, na, ra, ya, wa cannot have a voiced quality added to
Okay, there's a lot more, but I'm starting to ramble. If you want, I can
keep going in this vein; although I do ask that people correct me if I am