Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Blackened Teeth & Ancient Names

Expand Messages
  • Stephen Higa
    ... I m sorry, I really should give up. I m not trying to be contentious or anything, I m just trying to understand... ... Hmm...I realize that part, but did
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 3, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      > Greetings from Solveig! Why are you persisiting on this phonetics
      > thing?

      I'm sorry, I really should give up. I'm not trying to be contentious
      or anything, I'm just trying to understand...

      > As for these H colums sounds. "PU" really is pretty much a
      > plosive variant on the bilabial Japanese "FU" which is
      > distinct from the labial-dental English "FU".

      Hmm...I realize that part, but did the other ha/hi/he/ho sounds just
      follow the fu's suit?

      >>It just seems that "g" can be linguistically related to "h"...
      >
      > WHY? The production mechanisms are distinct and you have not
      > come up with a regular sound shift theory such as the "Great
      > Vowel Shift" encountered in Europe.

      Well, I'm just wondering...I mean, I'm somewhat familiar with the
      linguistic periods in Europe that one has to know to do the medieval
      and renaissance music I'm interested in (i.e. Occitan, Iberian
      languages, English, French, Arabic, Hebrew), but I don't know about
      Japanese linguistics aside from what one gets when one speaks a
      little of it conversationally (i.e., not much). I thought perhaps
      this would be a good place to ask, because linguistics texts can be
      overwhelming when jumping in cold turkey.

      I don't want to dig myself any deeper in this than I am already, but
      as for the g and h thing, sometimes distinct production mechanisms can
      make little difference in a consonant shift, like the one from j/g
      (sounded like modern French "j" in medieval Spanish) to a harsh h in
      modern Spanish. I was just trying to find out why they say modern
      japanese h's used to be p's when it doesn't seem like there should be
      a relationship between the two. Do you actually know why?

      > The best thing is not to try to play catchup in any field as that is
      > generally a loosing strategy.

      yes, that has become apparent... :(

      > Your basic idea of going after a
      > relatively unexplored area was fundamentally sound provided your
      > goal is to be an international expert in some field or other.
      > What you appear to need work on is methadology.

      I agree. I'm not well-versed in the proper methodology yet...Your
      advice will help that, I hope. Than
    • Stephen Higa
      ... have ... discoveries ... of ... Thank you Kass, that gives me hope. :) Because Lady Solveig is right, it is a losing battle, and it sure feels like it.
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 3, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        > I have to disagree with Effingham here, Stephen. Although certainly
        > experts who have studied the subject for entire careers certainly
        have
        > knowledge that you nor I ever will, there have been amazing
        discoveries
        > made by amateurs in many disciplines. Sometimes it is the "new set
        of
        > eyes" that sees the thing that the experts have been missing. Such
        > enlightenments have happened in the disciplines of clothing history,
        > astronomy, archeology...

        Thank you Kass, that gives me hope. :) Because Lady Solveig is right,
        it is a losing battle, and it sure feels like it. What you said gives
        me drive to try, at least.

        > I wouldn't "give up" if I were you. I would investigate it to
        whatever
        > level you desire. But do always make people aware which of your
        hypotheses
        > are based on concrete evidence and which are "educated guesses".

        Oh, certainly. Doing early Spanish clothing, music, and Judaism, I
        have to tell people that some of this stuff I don't know (heck, a lot
        of it nobody knows), and I'm just going on "educated guesses."
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Generally speaking all of the columns follow suit. The H-column is a bit odd as there are two versions of voicing it.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 4, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          >Hmm...I realize that part, but did the other ha/hi/he/ho sounds just
          >follow the fu's suit?

          Generally speaking all of the columns follow suit. The H-column is
          a bit odd as there are two versions of voicing it. Also, the
          voiced versions tend to involve a kind of bilabial stop. So it
          is not strictly simply a matter of voicing them. Regardless K-
          and G- are still more strongly related as G- is pretty much a
          voiced K- and involves a kind of glottal stop whereas the H-
          variants involve bilabial stops. Producing a glottal stop
          generally involves tong motion not involved in producing a
          bilabial stop.

          >I don't want to dig myself any deeper in this than I am already, but
          >as for the g and h thing, sometimes distinct production mechanisms can
          >make little difference in a consonant shift, like the one from j/g
          >(sounded like modern French "j" in medieval Spanish) to a harsh h in
          >modern Spanish. I was just trying to find out why they say modern
          >japanese h's used to be p's when it doesn't seem like there should be
          >a relationship between the two. Do you actually know why?

          Ahh. What they are saying is that there was greater lip closure
          than at present. Essentially, it is impossible to voice the H
          column without turning it into a bilabial.

          > > The best thing is not to try to play catchup in any field as that is
          >> generally a loosing strategy.
          >
          >yes, that has become apparent... :(

          Please don't feel discouraged. It's just that you have to run
          twice as fast if you go chasing after a group of people making
          forward progress. That doesn't mean that you can not learn more
          about Japanese linguistics than the people here. It just means that
          you should go out and read some linguistics books first. However,
          if you want to be a leader in some area, it is best to find
          some field where you can break new ground.

          Why not go get a copy of Roy Andrew Miller's book on Japanese
          linguistics. It's pretty good. There are others that I can
          recommend as well. There is also a spiffy book called "The
          Languages of Japan" which has sections on the Ainu language
          and the Okinawan language as well. I you are fortunate enough
          to be an undergraduate, then please take a course or two in
          linguistics. I don't know of anyone anyone in the Society that
          has done serious work with the Ainu language. I have a short
          popular introduction to the language written in Japanese, but
          that doesn't count. We can be quite confident that the Ainu
          were in at least some parts of Japan before the Japanese
          showed up.

          Finally, please take to heart a famous aphorism. I think it was
          Newton. I do not have a quotations book here. Regardless it goes
          as follows:

          I see farther because I stand on the shoulders of Giants.

          What this means is that you should try to go out and learn what
          has already been discovered and conjectured about your field of
          study before becoming overly attached to your own theories.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          --
          +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
          +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
          | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
          | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
          | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
          | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
          | techie.com, msn.com |
          +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
        • logan@modzer0.cs.uaf.edu
          ... I would suggest you go ahead and get the suggested reading material or take a course on linquistics--Japanese in particular. However, since you have
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 4, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            On Wed, 4 Jul 2001, Stephen Higa wrote:

            > Well, I'm just wondering...I mean, I'm somewhat familiar with the
            > linguistic periods in Europe that one has to know to do the medieval
            > and renaissance music I'm interested in (i.e. Occitan, Iberian
            > languages, English, French, Arabic, Hebrew), but I don't know about
            > Japanese linguistics aside from what one gets when one speaks a
            > little of it conversationally (i.e., not much). I thought perhaps
            > this would be a good place to ask, because linguistics texts can be
            > overwhelming when jumping in cold turkey.
            >
            > I don't want to dig myself any deeper in this than I am already, but
            > as for the g and h thing, sometimes distinct production mechanisms can
            > make little difference in a consonant shift, like the one from j/g
            > (sounded like modern French "j" in medieval Spanish) to a harsh h in
            > modern Spanish. I was just trying to find out why they say modern
            > japanese h's used to be p's when it doesn't seem like there should be
            > a relationship between the two. Do you actually know why?
            >

            I would suggest you go ahead and get the suggested reading material or
            take a course on linquistics--Japanese in particular. However, since you
            have asked, I will try to remember everything that I had been taught in my
            linguistics class and see what I can do for you here.

            First of all, the issue of p -> h; in case you aren't interested in the
            rest just yet ;) I'm going to also try and define the various terms as I
            am not sure if you or others are familiar with them. As a disclaimer,
            when I say 'English' I am talking about English as it is taught in
            most American schools.

            As was mentioned, pu->fu is the same path that all of the 'h' series took.
            That is, p->f->h. The first is an unvoiced bilabial plosive. The second
            is an unvoiced bilablial fricative (note that it is actually different
            from the English 'f' which is labio-dental). The H is an unvoiced glottal
            fricative.

            Voiced refers to whether or not the larynx is vibrating when the sound is
            produced. Put your hand on your throat and you can feel it-- k is
            unvoiced, g is voiced; s is unvoiced, z is voiced; t is unvoiced, d is
            voiced. See a pattern? More on that later.

            The terms 'bilabial', 'labio-dental', and 'glottal' refer to where the
            sound is produced. Bilabial means that it is produced with both lips.
            'p', 'b', and 'm' are all Bilabial in English.

            Labio-dental means that it is produced with one lip and one set of teeth
            (lower lip, teeth of the upper jaw). The English 'f' and 'v' are
            examples.

            Glottal refers to the back of the throat. I believe that it is about as
            far back as we really go in English.

            The next part has to do with how the sound is created. A plosive (think
            'explode' or 'implode') is where we close off a part of our mouth and then
            build up air, releasing it to form the sound (p, t, d, g, k, for example).

            A fricative is when the sound is caused by friction between the parts of
            the mouth. 'f','v','s', and 'z' are some examples of fricatives.


            Now, another aspect of all of this is the voicing, which I touched on
            briefly before. Now look at all the Japanese characters that take two
            'ten-ten' marks. That mark turns ka to ga, sa to za, etc. In each case,
            it adds the quality of making those sounds 'voiced'. For the 'h' series
            we therefore get 'b' because it is the voiced version of 'p' (Now, why
            they still kept the 'p' sound for some things I'm not sure. I am curious
            as to why that survived).

            Also notice that ma, na, ra, ya, wa cannot have a voiced quality added to
            them.

            Okay, there's a lot more, but I'm starting to ramble. If you want, I can
            keep going in this vein; although I do ask that people correct me if I am
            wrong.


            -Ii
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.