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Later than Heian clothing - Momoyama???

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  • Rahlyns Falconer-Beddes
    I m at a terrible disadvantage as I too cannot read Japanese, (and have no access to good research libraries, let s face it the Omaha Public Library has very
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2001
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      I'm at a terrible disadvantage as I too cannot read Japanese, (and
      have no access to good research libraries, let's face it the Omaha
      Public Library has very limited references!) and I'm having a bear of
      a time finding info on the clothing for women from this period.

      I've been doing Edo Ukiyo-e prints style stuff, but that's for the
      fantasy group we're in, who bless them, have no idea about
      authenticity, history or well, even care about them.

      Now this more modern stuff is fun, but still not something I can be
      proud of as an SCA accomplishment. And I'm wondering if there are
      any sources that I might be able to get maybe through ILL that
      someone could reccommend?

      Or maybe someone out there is an expert?
    • Andrea Gideon
      ... Are you loooking for info on men s or women s clothing? Nadeshiko
      Message 2 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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        > Now this more modern stuff is fun, but still not something I can be
        > proud of as an SCA accomplishment. And I'm wondering if there are
        > any sources that I might be able to get maybe through ILL that
        > someone could reccommend?
        >
        > Or maybe someone out there is an expert?
        >

        Are you loooking for info on men's or women's clothing?

        Nadeshiko
      • Rahlyns Falconer-Beddes
        ... be ... I thought I mentioned that, silly me. Women s.
        Message 3 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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          --- In sca-jml@y..., Andrea Gideon <andrea@g...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > > Now this more modern stuff is fun, but still not something I can
          be
          > > proud of as an SCA accomplishment. And I'm wondering if there are
          > > any sources that I might be able to get maybe through ILL that
          > > someone could reccommend?
          > >
          > > Or maybe someone out there is an expert?
          > >
          >
          > Are you loooking for info on men's or women's clothing?
          >
          > Nadeshiko

          I thought I mentioned that, silly me. Women's.
        • Kass McGann
          I m at a terrible disadvantage as I too cannot read Japanese, (and have no access to good research libraries, let s face it the Omaha Public Library has very
          Message 4 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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            I'm at a terrible disadvantage as I too cannot read Japanese, (and
            have no access to good research libraries, let's face it the Omaha
            Public Library has very limited references!) and I'm having a bear of
            a time finding info on the clothing for women from this period. 
            >>>>
            Have you read Dalby's "Kimono: Fashioning Culture"?  It's not specifically on Momoyama period textiles, but it covers all periods from ancient time to the present.  Although it is not my favourite period, I know there is some info on Momoyama women's clothing in there.
             
            Also, Momoyama was the period in which the kosode really became the garment of art and beauty that it is today (in the form of the modern kimono).  Most books titled "Kosode" will begin with a discussion of Momoyama period textiles.  Matter of fact, the most well-preserved extant garments that survive from the Sengoku period date to Momoyama.  How lucky you are!
             
            Furthermore, there is a lady in Atlantia (Washington DC area) who did a number of articles on Momoyama textiles for TI.  Go to sca.org, click on the link for Tournaments Illuminated, and look in the Index of Articles for her works.  There may be a link to her article there or you can order a copy from the Stock Clerk in Milpitas.  Also, her email address may be listed and I have found her to be helpful whenever we spoke.  If nothing else, her articles will give you a great bibliography from which to start.  I am reasonably sure that the author does not read Japanese, so they will all be in English.  =)
             
            But just to whet your appetite, here are some pictures from Momoyama: 
            An upper class bushi woman wearing uchikake --
            An upper class bushi woman wearing koshimaki --
            A prostitute --
             
            I hope this gives you some assistance.
             
            Kass
            aka Fujiwara no Aoi
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... 1. Baron Edward is working on a CA devoted to men s clothing. I have seen the galleys so I can say this with great
            Message 5 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >Now this more modern stuff is fun, but still not something I can be
              >proud of as an SCA accomplishment. And I'm wondering if there are
              >any sources that I might be able to get maybe through ILL that
              >someone could reccommend?

              1. Baron Edward is working on a CA devoted to men's clothing. I
              have seen the galleys so I can say this with great confidence.
              I hear that Fujiwara Hime has similar plans for women;s
              clothing.

              2. You may be able to get the Nuikata book through interlibrary
              loan. I think that you can do a Worldcat search via ISBN.
              If so, just have your ILL librarian look up

              ISBN 4-7739-8405-8

              and get a copy for you to borrow. The measurements in this
              book are in metric. The garments may also be for people
              rather smaller than you are. In at least some instances,
              they were made for children. I think that someone should
              go through the nuikata book and simply make an HTML version
              of an anotated table of contents for the thing so that
              people who do not read Japanese will know what they are
              looking at. I think that either of the clothes horses on
              this mailing list would do a far better job of it than I,
              but I will have a bit of free time after exams are over.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
              --
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            • Rahlyns Falconer-Beddes
              Thanks ever so much ladies! That ll get me started.
              Message 6 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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                Thanks ever so much ladies! That'll get me started.
              • Andrea Gideon
                ... Can you give me full title and author info? The Library of Congress catalog is coming up nothing with that ISBN. Andrea
                Message 7 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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                  >
                  > 2. You may be able to get the Nuikata book through interlibrary
                  > loan. I think that you can do a Worldcat search via ISBN.
                  > If so, just have your ILL librarian look up
                  >
                  > ISBN 4-7739-8405-8
                  >

                  Can you give me full title and author info? The Library of Congress catalog is coming up nothing with that ISBN.


                  Andrea
                • C. J. Wallace
                  ... The following is the Library of Congress card catalogue entry (I pulled it ... LC Control Number: 85114935 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform,
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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                    > > 2. You may be able to get the Nuikata book through interlibrary
                    > > loan. I think that you can do a Worldcat search via ISBN.
                    > > If so, just have your ILL librarian look up
                    > >
                    > > ISBN 4-7739-8405-8
                    > >
                    >
                    > Can you give me full title and author info? The Library of
                    > Congress catalog is coming up nothing with that ISBN.

                    The following is the Library of Congress card catalogue entry (I pulled it
                    up searching for the keywords "jidai" and "isho"):
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    LC Control Number: 85114935

                    Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.)

                    Personal Name: Kurihara, Hiro, 1919-

                    Main Title: Jidai ish?o no nuikata : fukugenhin o ch?ushin to shita
                    Nihon dent?o ifuku no k?osei gih?o / Kurihara Hiro,
                    Kawamura Machiko ; kar?a shashin satsuei Nokubo
                    Masayoshi.

                    Edition Information:
                    Shohan.

                    Published/Created: T?oky?o : Genry?usha, Sh?owa 59 [1984]

                    Related Names: Kawamura, Machiko, 1935-

                    Description: 314 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 31 cm.

                    Subjects: Sewing.
                    Kimonos--Pattern design.
                    Costume--Japan.

                    LC Classification: TT715 .K87 1984

                    Other System No.: (CStRLIN)DCLP85-B4279

                    Geog. Area Code: a-ja---

                    ______________________________

                    CALL NUMBER: TT715 .K87 1984 Japan

                    -- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150)
                    -- Status: Not Charged

                    ______________________________

                    CALL NUMBER: TT715 .K87 1984 Japan
                    Copy 1

                    -- Request in: Asian Reading Room (Jefferson, LJ150)
                    -- Status: Charged--Due on 06/17/01


                    ============================================================
                    LIBRARY OF CONGRESS ONLINE CATALOG
                    Library of Congress
                    101 Independence Ave., SE
                    Washington, DC 20540
                    EMAIL: lconline@...
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    I know that it can be requested through ILL; as a matter of fact, I have
                    just done so myself. If you give the catalogue entry and the ISBN (which is
                    indeed 4773984058) to your local librarian, he should be able to use the
                    electronic request form (I believe that's what is required to get books on
                    ILL from the Library of Congress) to get the book for you.

                    I hope this helps.

                    Sincerely,

                    Christopher Wallace
                  • Barbara Nostrand
                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Actually, they will probably use Worldcat at OCLC to locate libraries which are willing to lend the book and then submit
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      Greetings from Solveig! Actually, they will probably use Worldcat
                      at OCLC to locate libraries which are willing to lend the book
                      and then submit requests to them.

                      The ISBN is one of several ways to identify a book. One of the
                      problems with holdings of East Asian books is that an identical
                      book may be listed in slightly different ways at different
                      libraries. This can result in different ascenssion numbers and
                      multiple entries for essentially the same book. The ISBN is
                      unique for editions, but is not unique for titles. Basically,
                      obtaining asian books through ILL is a bit of an adventure.
                      Sometimes the ILL people can come through with pleasant
                      surprises where they find books that are not actually requesting,
                      but which you very much enjoy finding.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar
                      --
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                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... I m sorry. I must have missed a few posts in the frenzy of the past few days. What exactly are you looking for -- class, period, sex, age, whatever -- and
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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                        Rahlyns Falconer-Beddes wrote:

                        > I thought I mentioned that, silly me. Women's.

                        I'm sorry. I must have missed a few posts in the frenzy of the past few
                        days.


                        What exactly are you looking for -- class, period, sex, age, whatever -- and
                        for what? I'll see if I can dig something up.


                        Effingham
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... That would be some trick, as there is as yet no edited manuscript, only a few illustrations, and only a few written sections... ... That s why I
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 2, 2001
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                          Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                          >
                          > 1. Baron Edward is working on a CA devoted to men's clothing. I
                          > have seen the galleys so I can say this with great confidence.\

                          That would be some trick, as there is as yet no edited manuscript, only a few illustrations, and only a few written sections... <G>

                          > The measurements in this book are in metric. The garments may also be for people
                          > rather smaller than you are.

                          That's why I automatically up the scale about 10%, to fit the difference in body scale from historical Japanese to present day nanbanjin.



                          Effingham
                        • Andrea Gideon
                          ... THANKS! I have a friend who works in the Asian reading room, so I ll be able to get the book without too much wait. There are times when I really love
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                            >
                            > The following is the Library of Congress card catalogue entry (I pulled it
                            > up searching for the keywords "jidai" and "isho"):
                            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > I hope this helps.
                            >
                            > Sincerely,
                            >
                            > Christopher Wallace

                            THANKS! I have a friend who works in the Asian reading room, so I'll be able to get the book without too much wait. There are times when I really
                            love living so close to D.C.

                            Andrea
                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! ... Then, what was that thing that you showed me last Pennsic? I thought that it was your cloting CA issue. Was it an
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                              Baron Edward!

                              Greetings from Solveig!

                              >That would be some trick, as there is as yet no edited manuscript,
                              >only a few illustrations, and only a few written sections... <G>

                              Then, what was that thing that you showed me last Pennsic? I thought
                              that it was your cloting CA issue. Was it an armour CA instead?

                              >That's why I automatically up the scale about 10%, to fit the
                              >difference in body scale from historical Japanese to present day
                              >nanbanjin.

                              Are you sure that 10% enough? Historical Japanese were pretty
                              small compared to today. I've been in some of those old buildings.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar
                              --
                              +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... Ah, that was the armour CA. ... Assuming a 5 3 man as typical, adding 10% gives you a 5 9 man, which is typical today. Effingham
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                                Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                > Baron Edward!
                                >
                                > Greetings from Solveig!
                                >
                                > >That would be some trick, as there is as yet no edited manuscript,
                                > >only a few illustrations, and only a few written sections... <G>
                                >
                                > Then, what was that thing that you showed me last Pennsic? I thought
                                > that it was your cloting CA issue. Was it an armour CA instead?
                                >

                                Ah, that was the armour CA.

                                >
                                > >That's why I automatically up the scale about 10%, to fit the
                                > >difference in body scale from historical Japanese to present day
                                > >nanbanjin.
                                >
                                > Are you sure that 10% enough? Historical Japanese were pretty
                                > small compared to today. I've been in some of those old buildings.

                                Assuming a 5'3" man as typical, adding 10% gives you a 5'9" man, which is
                                typical today.


                                Effingham
                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                Baron Edward! Where does the 5 3 measure come from and do you have one for women? Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar --
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                                  Baron Edward!

                                  Where does the 5'3" measure come from and do you have one for
                                  women?

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar
                                  --
                                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... I wish I could recall. It was something I saw somewhere years ago on a chart. At the time, I wasn t paying attention to female statistics. One of those
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                                    Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                    > Baron Edward!
                                    >
                                    > Where does the 5'3" measure come from and do you have one for
                                    > women?
                                    >

                                    I wish I could recall. It was something I saw somewhere years ago on a chart. At the time, I wasn't paying attention to female statistics. One of
                                    those "doh!" moments....


                                    Effingham
                                  • Barbara Nostrand
                                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Unfortunately, Worldcat claims that there is precisely one copy of the nuikata book in the interlibrary loan system. I
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                                      Noble Cousins!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      Unfortunately, Worldcat claims that there is precisely one copy
                                      of the nuikata book in the interlibrary loan system. I truly
                                      wish that the Society were living up to collecting a library.
                                      Then, we might be able to borrow books through the Society.

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar
                                      --
                                      +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                                    • Kass McGann
                                      ... I wish I could recall. It was something I saw somewhere years ago on a chart. At the time, I wasn t paying attention to female statistics. One of those
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                                        > Where does the 5'3" measure come from and do you have one
                                        for
                                        > women?
                                        >

                                        I wish I could recall. It was something I saw somewhere years ago on a chart. At the time, I wasn't paying attention to female statistics. One of
                                        those "doh!" moments....
                                        >>>>
                                        The average women's height was five feet.  I must have read the same book, darling...
                                         
                                        Kass/Fujiwara


                                        Effingham



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                                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                                        ... Domo, ne! * Effingham *thanx
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                                          Kass McGann wrote:

                                          >
                                          > I wish I could recall. It was something I saw somewhere years ago on a
                                          > chart. At the time, I wasn't paying attention to female statistics.
                                          > One of
                                          > those "doh!" moments....
                                          > >>>>The average women's height was five feet. I must have read the
                                          > same book, darling...

                                          Domo, ne! <G>*


                                          Effingham
                                          *thanx
                                        • Rahlyns Falconer-Beddes
                                          ... few ... whatever -- and ... Class, well, upper, warrior class. Period, 1550 to 1600(ish - I ll go over) Female preferred, but some more knowledge on men s
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 3, 2001
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                                            --- In sca-jml@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
                                            > Rahlyns Falconer-Beddes wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > I thought I mentioned that, silly me. Women's.
                                            >
                                            > I'm sorry. I must have missed a few posts in the frenzy of the past
                                            few
                                            > days.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > What exactly are you looking for -- class, period, sex, age,
                                            whatever -- and
                                            > for what? I'll see if I can dig something up.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Effingham

                                            Class, well, upper, warrior class. Period, 1550 to 1600(ish - I'll
                                            go over) Female preferred, but some more knowledge on men's styles
                                            would be nice as well. Eventually I'd like to find out more and more
                                            about the time period in all aspects, but clothing seems to be where
                                            I start.
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