Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [SCA-JML] Late Heian Men's Clothing & "Jidai Ishou no Nuikata" Patterns

Expand Messages
  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Size. Nothing else. ... Nope, that s about it. ... Kuzu (Kudzu) cloth. Think linen or ramie; essentially, it s woven plant fiber. ... Not particularly;
    Message 1 of 7 , May 1, 2001
      "C. J. Wallace" wrote:

      > Hello everyone;
      >
      > > The clothing described from p. 223 - 231 (at least in my
      > > copy of the nuikata book) is described as Warawa Suikan
      > > and is therefore thought to be children's clothing. The
      > > modern reading for the first kanji is warabe which means
      > > child.
      >
      > As a matter of interest, what distinguishes it from an adult's suikan?

      Size. Nothing else.

      > Can
      > the pattern be used for an adult's costume, or do the differences lie in cut
      > and not just measurements and decoration? Also, are there any other suikan /
      > suikan sashinuki patterns in the book that I have overlooked (I've only had
      > a brief glance at it due to the ILL requirements, which state that it must
      > remain in the library)?
      >

      Nope, that's about it. <G>

      >
      > By the way, I noticed that in the introduction to the warawa suikan pattern,
      > the book refers to the accompanying hakama as being a "sashinuki no mijikai
      > kuzu-bakama." What exactly is a kuzu-bakama?
      >

      Kuzu (Kudzu) cloth. Think linen or ramie; essentially, it's woven plant fiber.

      >
      > Concerning the complete suikan outfit: I gather that several kosode (2,3?)
      > were worn with the suikan; do you have any suggestions for appropriate
      > "Jidai Ishou no Nuikata" patterns?

      Not particularly; an under kosode of white and an outer kosode of some solid color would typically be worn.

      > What about hitoe and the inner hakama of
      > the sokutai? Were those also worn with suikan?
      >

      No; there was often an inner hakama, but the inner hakama for a sokutai are to a different cut. Hitoe may be worn with kariginu, and
      *must* be worn with a ho, but never with a suikan.


      Effingham
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... The fabric depends on the *type* of persona and the purpose of the garment. I have linen suikan, not silk, myself. Hakama (usually sashinuki) are worn with
      Message 2 of 7 , May 1, 2001
        "C. J. Wallace" wrote:

        > Thank you for the advice; I've actually been considering using the
        > pattern that you mentioned for a while, but due to my lack of
        > knowledge of such garments and substandard sewing skills was a bit
        > intimidated by the absence of directions. I guess I'll have to give it
        > a try soon, using my poor translations of the "Jidai Ishou no Nuikata"
        > pattern as crutch for my ignorance of period clothing. What fabric
        > should I use, by the way? I noticed that you recommend habotai on you
        > website (which I enjoyed immensely), but what weight is appropriate,
        > and to what extent is colour restricted?Also, what other garments
        > accompany the suikan? I gather that several kosode (of similar or
        > different patterns?) are used, but what about hitoe and under-hakama?

        The fabric depends on the *type* of persona and the purpose of the
        garment. I have linen suikan, not silk, myself.

        Hakama (usually sashinuki) are worn with a suikan, and a kosode. If the
        hakama aren't lined, you might also want to make a set of under hakama
        (similar cut to sashinuki, but only ankle length, lightweight, and
        usually something like white or a natural color.

        Don't bother apologizing; we all have to start somewhere, and you're
        asking the right questions.

        If you can come to Pennsic, you should come to my garb class.

        Effingham
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Bingo. (Bungo? Echizen?) ... That first one represents Yoshitsune in his first encounter with Benkei on the Go-jo Bridge. ... Fair warning: kikutoji are
        Message 3 of 7 , May 1, 2001
          "J. Badgley" wrote:

          >
          > From the way I read it, it seems as though one should only need to adjust
          > the measurements to create the proper garment.
          >

          Bingo. (Bungo? Echizen?)

          >
          > Looking at the Kyoto Costume Museum's web site (you can find the links in
          > the bookmarks section of the yahoo!groups page) I found that pattern used
          > in two places, apparently:
          >
          > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/47.htm
          > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/wayou/49.htm
          >
          > The first appears to be wearing the sashinuki as well; it is a young
          > child, it seems, but I don't know that this has any bearing on the pattern
          > other than size.
          >

          That first one represents Yoshitsune in his first encounter with Benkei on the Go-jo Bridge.

          >
          > I did notice the kikutouji (poms) on other, adult suikan as well.
          >

          Fair warning: kikutoji are flat, not true pompoms. Just so people don't get confused. <G>

          > Not sure, but 'kuzufu' is grass cloth and 'katsui' is a thin, coarse hemp
          > kimono (katsu being another pronunciation of 'kuzu') so I would think it
          > might be referring to the fabric used in the sashinuki. Anoyone else know
          > better?

          It's a type of linen.


          Effingham
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... A word of warning: the word hitoe is like the word shirt -- it applies to several different garments. In terms of men s clothing, a hitoe is
          Message 4 of 7 , May 1, 2001
            Kass McGann wrote:

            > I don't know if "several" kosode are worn. Remember that this is not
            > a formal outfit. I would wear a white kosode, a red or white hitoe
            > (just cut a little larger than the kosode), and sashinuki hakama in a
            > contrasting colour (unless you want to portray a servant, and then
            > it's all white). You can use the pattern in the files section here
            > for the hakama.

            A word of warning: the word "hitoe" is like the word "shirt" -- it
            applies to several different garments. In terms of men's clothing, a
            hitoe is mid-length, open-sided, big-sleeved, unlined, stiff, robe worn
            under formal coats like the ho and kariginu; it wouldn't be worn with a
            suikan that I can imagine. You're probably thinking "hitoe" in terms of
            unlined robe thing... it's a girl thing, no? <G>

            Effingham
          • Kass McGann
            A word of warning: the word hitoe is like the word shirt -- it applies to several different garments. In terms of men s clothing, a hitoe is mid-length,
            Message 5 of 7 , May 1, 2001
              A word of warning: the word "hitoe" is like the word "shirt" -- it
              applies to several different garments. In terms of men's clothing, a
              hitoe is mid-length, open-sided, big-sleeved, unlined, stiff, robe worn
              under formal coats like the ho and kariginu; it wouldn't be worn with a
              suikan that I can imagine. You're probably thinking "hitoe" in terms of
              unlined robe thing... it's a girl thing, no? <G>
              >>>>>
              Well, like, duh!  I'm just a girl...  ;)
               
              So "hitoe" doesn't always mean "singlet"?  It actually has more meaning than that when referring to a male garment?  News to me.  I believe you.  You know male stuff isn't my gig...
               
              Kass
              aka Fujiwara no Aoi
            • Barbara Nostrand
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes. And make the garment bigger than you think it should be unless of course you already know what you are doing.
              Message 6 of 7 , May 1, 2001
                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > > From the way I read it, it seems as though one should only need to adjust
                >> the measurements to create the proper garment.
                >>
                >
                >Bingo. (Bungo? Echizen?)

                Yes. And make the garment bigger than you think it should be unless
                of course you already know what you are doing. Basically, Japanese
                garments are not "fitted" they are adjusted to the body each time
                they are put on.

                I checked out the "pom poms" and they do appear on adult garments
                as well. The only things you need worry about are size and color
                choice.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
                --
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Ignored domains: bestbiz.net, pop.net, hotmail.com, aibusiness.com |
                | vdi.net, usa.net, tpnet.pl, myremarq.com |
                | netscape.net, excite.com, bigfoot.com, public.com |
                | com.tw, eranet.net, yahoo.com, success.net |
                | mailcity.com, net.tw, twac.com, netcenter.com |
                | techie.com, msn.com |
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
              • C. J. Wallace
                ... Okay, I see. Thank you for your help. Sincerely, Christopher Wallace
                Message 7 of 7 , May 2, 2001
                  > Yes. And make the garment bigger than you think it should be unless
                  > of course you already know what you are doing. Basically, Japanese
                  > garments are not "fitted" they are adjusted to the body each time
                  > they are put on.
                  >
                  > I checked out the "pom poms" and they do appear on adult garments
                  > as well. The only things you need worry about are size and color
                  > choice.

                  Okay, I see. Thank you for your help.

                  Sincerely,

                  Christopher Wallace
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.