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Kofun!

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  • stephen higa
    I found it too difficult to keep up with too very religious personae (one Buddhsit, the other Jewish)--too much reading to do! ;) Not only do I have to read
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 9, 2001
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      Kofun! I found it too difficult to keep up with too very religious personae (one Buddhsit, the other Jewish)--too much reading to do! ;)  Not only do I have to read ABOUT my cultures, I also have to read all the things my persona would have read!  And that's stuff like the Torah, the Talmud, all the Rabbinic commentaries, the Arabic treatises on many things, etc.  And having to read Buddhist scriptures, too??  That's too much.  So I'm trying to develop a 6th c. persona (I know, it's outside the traditional bounds of SCA Period...will anyone mind?) just because no one else seems to have one that early.  :)

      Well, the problem (well, one of the many problems) is that I don't know where to look for names.  I though that I would try looking through the Kojiki, and I found two names I might mix and match:  Piyeda no Are and Kusaka no Tarasi (well, the latter is not given as an entire name, but just as an example of a last name and a given name).  
      In the Nihongi, I found many names (I tried to stay away from important persons and used names just mentioned in passing):  
      Sakahibe no Omi
      Ihagane no Kishi
      Ohotomo no Muraji
      Sakamoto no Omi  (wow, Sakamoto is an old name!)
      Otomo no Suguri
      Zentoku no Omi
      Hada no Miyakko
      Imoko no Omi
      Funa no Fumibito
      Wono no Imoko no Omi
      Kahachi no Aya no Atahe
      Nishikori no Obito
      etc.

      However, I'm just not sure whether "Omi" is a given name or a title or something.  If it's a given name, then it might be good to try since it's so popular.  I can be Piyeda no Omi or something.  That sounds ancient enough!  I just hope such a name might have been used in the 6th c.  I want to be a member of a be (guild, sort of).  Does anybody know if there were specific naming practices associated with specific be ?  Any suggestions for what be to be? (boy, that's getting confusing)  

      Well, this will prove an adventure.  Once I get garb made, I'll post the pics. :)

      Omi (?)
      --------------------------------------------------------
      "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
      When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"

                                              --Moshe ibn Yishma'el, 1164
    • Chris, ska Matashichiro
      ... I m doing a persona who in addition to being a bushi (who loves the beauty in life and thus plays the shakuhachi too,) is also a Soto sect Zen Buddhist.
      Message 2 of 26 , Apr 10, 2001
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        > I found it too difficult to keep up with too very religious personae (one
        > Buddhsit, the other Jewish)--too much reading to do! ;) Not only do I have
        > to read ABOUT my cultures, I also have to read all the things my persona
        > would have read! And that's stuff like the Torah, the Talmud, all the
        > Rabbinic commentaries, the Arabic treatises on many things, etc. And having
        > to read Buddhist scriptures, too?? That's too much.

        I'm doing a persona who in addition to being a bushi (who loves the beauty
        in life and thus plays the shakuhachi too,) is also a Soto sect Zen
        Buddhist. The nice thing about Zen Buddhism is that there is very little
        theory involved. You basically sit. While sitting, you think of...
        sitting. Now I do admit that this is cheating, because I'm mundanely a Soto
        sect Zen Buddhist, but one thing that attracted me to Buddhism more than
        other religions was the lack of need for extensive reading.
        The whole idea (and the one thing that makes it a religion rather than a
        philosophy) is faith; the total belief that you /will/ reach enlightenment
        by sitting. Now you /can/ read lots of stuff, but ultimately it's the total
        lack of knowing that leads you to satori. The sutras are just there to help
        you know /how/ to lack thought.
        A monk would have to know some more theory behind it, but a lay monk is
        probably still more about just doing it rather than cluttering the sea of
        thought with flotsam and jetsam. When you hear of Zen masters spitting on
        or throwing statues of the Buddha and Bodhisattvas into the fire, that is
        why; they only show us the way, and so it is useless to pray to them, since
        they are not superhuman or gods.
        And by the way, Buddhism has no conflicts with any religions that do not
        specifically say that Buddhism is wrong; many Shintoists are also Buddhists.

        Ahhh, now Judaism is another matter entirely!

        Hmmm, now a 6th-century Japanese would have to know stuff about Shinto, and
        any religion which involves many many gods is bound to be complex. Which
        can be a very good thing! (I love comparative study of religions!)

        Hai!
        Kinoshita no Matashichiro
        --
        "the sound of a flute
        rustling of leaves in the spring
        seventh son sitting"
        -Matashichiro
      • stephen higa
        ... That sounds sensible. Unfortunately, now I m enticed beyond all return by the challenge of creating an ancient persona. ;) ... I ll say! It doesn t help
        Message 3 of 26 , Apr 10, 2001
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          > A monk would have to know some more theory behind it, but a lay monk is
          > probably still more about just doing it rather than cluttering the sea of
          > thought with flotsam and jetsam.

          That sounds sensible. Unfortunately, now I'm enticed beyond all return by
          the challenge of creating an ancient persona. ;)

          > Ahhh, now Judaism is another matter entirely!

          I'll say! It doesn't help that I'm not mundanely Jewish and have to learn
          all the simple stuff, too.

          > Hmmm, now a 6th-century Japanese would have to know stuff about Shinto, and
          > any religion which involves many many gods is bound to be complex. Which
          > can be a very good thing! (I love comparative study of religions!)

          Yes! I can handle that. I won't be a priest or anything, I'm thinking
          something like a potter or weaver or person who gathers stuff from the
          mountains or something. Does anybody have a list of the be? Something
          where I can be simple. It'll be a good change of pace from my well-educated
          Jewish mystical poet.

          > "the sound of a flute
          > rustling of leaves in the spring
          > seventh son sitting"
          > -Matashichiro

          That was very beautiful! I'm not the only person who puts persona-quotes in
          his e-mails?? :)

          Health attend you,
          Piyeda no Omi (nobody's refuted my possible name) / Moshe, my other persona
          --------------------------------------------------------
          "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
          When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"

          --Moshe ibn Yishma'el, 1164
        • Chris, ska Matashichiro
          ... I understand completely. I tried figuring out a Muslim persona from the 1300s (why always around that time?) but it was just too complex. And Japanese in
          Message 4 of 26 , Apr 11, 2001
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            >> A monk would have to know some more theory behind it, but a lay monk is
            >> probably still more about just doing it rather than cluttering the sea of
            >> thought with flotsam and jetsam.
            >
            > That sounds sensible. Unfortunately, now I'm enticed beyond all return by
            > the challenge of creating an ancient persona. ;)

            I understand completely. I tried figuring out a Muslim persona from the
            1300s (why always around that time?) but it was just too complex. And
            Japanese in general would be a challenge for me, since I never learned much
            about it.

            >> Ahhh, now Judaism is another matter entirely!
            >
            > I'll say! It doesn't help that I'm not mundanely Jewish and have to learn
            > all the simple stuff, too.

            Yup. The Islamic persona would be very difficult, because it's not a
            religion I practice, and Islam is a religion that has to influence every bit
            of your life. Most Englishmen in the 1350s were probably not nearly as
            devout as the Muslims of the same time period, and I was raised Christian so
            I know about the religion.

            >> Hmmm, now a 6th-century Japanese would have to know stuff about Shinto, and
            >> any religion which involves many many gods is bound to be complex. Which
            >> can be a very good thing! (I love comparative study of religions!)
            >
            > Yes! I can handle that. I won't be a priest or anything, I'm thinking
            > something like a potter or weaver or person who gathers stuff from the
            > mountains or something. Does anybody have a list of the be? Something
            > where I can be simple. It'll be a good change of pace from my well-educated
            > Jewish mystical poet.

            That is going to be very very cool. I really want to see the garb! Are you
            going to be coming to Pennsic this year? If so, come by and visit Black
            Diamond (yellow field, black diamond-- you can't miss it.) I'm in the Big
            Silver Yurt, it looks like a Mongolian UFO.

            >> "the sound of a flute
            >> rustling of leaves in the spring
            >> seventh son sitting"
            >> -Matashichiro
            >
            > That was very beautiful! I'm not the only person who puts persona-quotes in
            > his e-mails?? :)
            Thank you! As a bushi I'm supposed to be artistic as well, so I play the
            flute and write poetry.

            > "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
            > When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"
            Your's is quite similar to the Rubayyat, which I've always loved. Very
            nihilistic. I like it... is there a page with more?

            Hai!
            Matashichiro
            --
            "the sound of a flute
            rustling of leaves in the spring
            seventh son sitting"
            -Matashichiro
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousin! There is no early period cutoff in the Society. There are ancient romans in the Society which means that you have folks that pre-date you by
            Message 5 of 26 , Apr 11, 2001
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              Noble Cousin!

              There is no "early period cutoff" in the Society. There are ancient
              romans in the Society which
              means that you have folks that pre-date you by several centuries. As
              a practical matter, you
              should avoid trying to recreate times about which we have almost no
              information. The kofun
              period is prehistoric. Among other things, this means that we can not
              even reliably invent
              names for this period. The Kojiki was compiled long after the kofun
              period ended. Although
              there may have been a few written sources available and an oral
              tradition, much of the
              Kojiki was either invented or imported from China.

              As for some of the references that you found in the Kojiki. Many of
              these names are
              completely titular or include titles which were in active use at the
              time of the person
              named. The Society generally rejects self-awarded titles. The College
              of Arms can
              go even farther and rejects names that were at one time titles.
              Fortunately, the
              College of Arms has not chosed to rigorously apply this rule to
              Japanese names or
              we might have serious problems with yobina (common use names).
              However, anything
              beyond fully nominalized (changed into name forms) elements should be avoided.

              Some of your names include kabane such as Omi, Ason and Muraji which
              were originally clan
              titles and which were retained up through the Meiji restoration in
              the 19th century. The
              forms that you are observing are uji (clan name) + kabane (clan
              title). This is sort of like
              asking peope to call you "King of the Franks" or "Duke of the Saxons".

              Being a member of a "be" is just fine. There were lots of "be". The
              real problem is coming up
              with a given name.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar
              --
              +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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            • Barbara Nostrand
              Noble Cousin! I know of no complete list of the be. However, I do have quite a few be names. You could of course simply pick one of the be that you run across
              Message 6 of 26 , Apr 11, 2001
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                Noble Cousin!

                I know of no complete list of the be. However, I do have quite a few be names.
                You could of course simply pick one of the be that you run across in the
                Nihongi. The Nihongi would even give you a bit of an idea about the nature
                of the particular be in question. You could for example belong to the Oribe
                which as I recall was a real be having to do with weaving.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
                --
                +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... I think you should go for it. I d love to see an early period Japanese persona. I m still waiting for someone to come along who wants to do 4th or 5th
                Message 7 of 26 , Apr 11, 2001
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                  stephen higa wrote:

                  > I found it too difficult to keep up with too very religious personae
                  > (one Buddhsit, the other Jewish)--too much reading to do! ;) Not only
                  > do I have to read ABOUT my cultures, I also have to read all the
                  > things my persona would have read! And that's stuff like the Torah,
                  > the Talmud, all the Rabbinic commentaries, the Arabic treatises on
                  > many things, etc. And having to read Buddhist scriptures, too??
                  > That's too much. So I'm trying to develop a 6th c. persona (I know,
                  > it's outside the traditional bounds of SCA Period...will anyone mind?)
                  > just because no one else seems to have one that early. :)
                  >

                  I think you should go for it. I'd love to see an early period Japanese
                  persona. I'm still waiting for someone to come along who wants to do 4th
                  or 5th century, so I can make a tanko for 'em to fight in. <G>

                  >
                  > Well, the problem (well, one of the many problems) is that I don't
                  > know where to look for names. I though that I would try looking
                  > through the Kojiki, and I found two names I might mix and match:
                  > Piyeda no Are and Kusaka no Tarasi (well, the latter is not given as
                  > an entire name, but just as an example of a last name and a given
                  > name).
                  > In the Nihongi, I found many names (I tried to stay away from
                  > important persons and used names just mentioned in passing):

                  Try conventional history books -- Nihongi and Kojiki aren't the best
                  sources in that they focus on full names with titles and so on, and
                  unless you know what you're looking at, you'll confuse titles with names
                  and so on, like you've done here. It's an easy mistake to make, but you
                  really have to know what you're looking at.

                  >
                  > Sakahibe no Omi
                  > Ihagane no Kishi
                  > Ohotomo no Muraji
                  > Sakamoto no Omi (wow, Sakamoto is an old name!)
                  > Otomo no Suguri
                  > Zentoku no Omi
                  > Hada no Miyakko
                  > Imoko no Omi
                  > Funa no Fumibito
                  > Wono no Imoko no Omi
                  > Kahachi no Aya no Atahe
                  > Nishikori no Obito
                  > etc.

                  Some of these are titles, some locatives, and some are partially
                  names...

                  >
                  > However, I'm just not sure whether "Omi" is a given name or a title or
                  > something.

                  Omi is a title. <G>

                  > If it's a given name, then it might be good to try since it's so
                  > popular. I can be Piyeda no Omi or something.

                  Warning: some editions of these books like to speculation on what the
                  original pronunciation of the names was (which is why you sometimes see
                  Himiko, and sometimes Pimiko). The thing is, no one's really sure, but
                  even still, this are likely pre-5th century names using such
                  pronunciation. I've seen an edition of the Nihongi that kept this
                  pronunciation system all through the translation, totally messing up and
                  confusing me, since no one -- least of all Japanese academics -- says
                  "Hoho Woto Pimi something" -- they all use "modern" conventional
                  Japanese pronunciation because We Just Don't Know. (And besides, that's
                  the closest they can get <G>.)

                  > That sounds ancient enough! I just hope such a name might have been
                  > used in the 6th c. I want to be a member of a be (guild, sort of).
                  > Does anybody know if there were specific naming practices associated
                  > with specific be ? Any suggestions for what be to be? (boy, that's
                  > getting confusing)
                  >

                  Grab Volume One of Sansom's History of Japan; he lists some dozen or
                  more Be early on. You also might want to read the first and second
                  volumes of the Cambridge History of Japan. It's almost easier to decide
                  what you want to do, and then find a Be.



                  Effingham
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Then you definitely need Sansom s first volume, Cambridge s first, and so on. Great stuff to start with. Please tell me you want to fight.... ... Do you
                  Message 8 of 26 , Apr 11, 2001
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                    stephen higa wrote:

                    > > A monk would have to know some more theory behind it, but a lay monk is
                    > > probably still more about just doing it rather than cluttering the sea of
                    > > thought with flotsam and jetsam.
                    >
                    > That sounds sensible. Unfortunately, now I'm enticed beyond all return by
                    > the challenge of creating an ancient persona. ;)
                    >

                    Then you definitely need Sansom's first volume, Cambridge's first, and so on.
                    Great stuff to start with.

                    Please tell me you want to fight....

                    >
                    > Yes! I can handle that. I won't be a priest or anything, I'm thinking
                    > something like a potter or weaver or person who gathers stuff from the
                    > mountains or something. Does anybody have a list of the be? Something
                    > where I can be simple. It'll be a good change of pace from my well-educated
                    > Jewish mystical poet.
                    >

                    Do you speak/read Japanese? There are a few good sources, but most aren't
                    English.


                    Effingham
                  • stephen higa
                    ... Whoah! Okay. And I was just informed by Lady Fujiwara that the costuming period I m looking at is 4th century!! I guess I ll maybe try 5th c. as that s
                    Message 9 of 26 , Apr 22, 2001
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                      > There is no "early period cutoff" in the Society. There are ancient
                      > romans in the Society which
                      > means that you have folks that pre-date you by several centuries.

                      Whoah! Okay. And I was just informed by Lady Fujiwara that the costuming
                      period I'm looking at is 4th century!! I guess I'll maybe try 5th c. as
                      that's a good period for be and they might have been wearing similar
                      stuff...

                      > As
                      > a practical matter, you
                      > should avoid trying to recreate times about which we have almost no
                      > information. The kofun
                      > period is prehistoric.

                      Yes, but that's what makes it so interesting! Another fantasy is to
                      re-create someone from one of the medieval African kingdoms...

                      At least, I want to make the garb. It just looks so different. :) I think
                      certain things about daily life can certainly be uncovered archaeologically,
                      and as for the rest (i.e., "big" historical issues), I won't even concern
                      myself with it because my possible persona wouldn't have known about that
                      stuff anyway. I don't want to be important, just an everyday person.

                      > Among other things, this means that we can not
                      > even reliably invent
                      > names for this period. The Kojiki was compiled long after the kofun
                      > period ended. Although
                      > there may have been a few written sources available and an oral
                      > tradition, much of the
                      > Kojiki was either invented or imported from China.

                      Well, yes, but I must say that I'm willing to rely on the oral tradition (as
                      presented in the Kojiki) especially for what it might tell us about
                      pre-Buddhist Japanese religious practices and beliefs. I'd take all the
                      caveats into consideration, of course, but it would be like re-creating
                      garments from iconography; if you don't have any extant garments for the
                      target period/culture, you have to use the pictures as your documentation,
                      realizing, of course, that that documentation is less than completely
                      reliable. I'll just have to use a synthesis of history, oral tradition,
                      archaeology, anthropology, ethnography, and sociology to come up with
                      speculative information...also, the accounts of Chinese travellers.

                      And plus I won't be playing this persona that often; he's more of a side
                      persona to my main 12th c. Spanish one. ;)

                      > As for some of the references that you found in the Kojiki. Many of
                      > these names are
                      > completely titular or include titles which were in active use at the
                      > time of the person
                      > named.
                      <snip>
                      > The
                      > forms that you are observing are uji (clan name) + kabane (clan
                      > title). This is sort of like
                      > asking peope to call you "King of the Franks" or "Duke of the Saxons".

                      Ah, I see. I would never dream of using a title for myself. :)

                      > Being a member of a "be" is just fine. There were lots of "be". The
                      > real problem is coming up
                      > with a given name.

                      Yeah...I'll have to look through my library, or ask some of the professors
                      here for good sources. Or do you have any to recommend?

                      Thanks for the help!

                      Stephen
                      --------------------------------------------------------
                      "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
                      When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"

                      --Moshe ibn Yishma'el, 1164
                    • stephen higa
                      ... Are they really? Hmm...I can t really say why... ... Amen! Do any of you have a Buddhist persona, but you re not mundanely Buddhist? ... It is not likely
                      Message 10 of 26 , Apr 22, 2001
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                        >> That sounds sensible. Unfortunately, now I'm enticed beyond all return by
                        >> the challenge of creating an ancient persona. ;)
                        >
                        > I understand completely. I tried figuring out a Muslim persona from the
                        > 1300s (why always around that time?)

                        Are they really? Hmm...I can't really say why...

                        > Yup. The Islamic persona would be very difficult, because it's not a
                        > religion I practice, and Islam is a religion that has to influence every bit
                        > of your life. Most Englishmen in the 1350s were probably not nearly as
                        > devout as the Muslims of the same time period, and I was raised Christian so
                        > I know about the religion.

                        Amen! Do any of you have a Buddhist persona, but you're not mundanely
                        Buddhist?

                        > That is going to be very very cool. I really want to see the garb! Are you
                        > going to be coming to Pennsic this year? If so, come by and visit Black
                        > Diamond (yellow field, black diamond-- you can't miss it.) I'm in the Big
                        > Silver Yurt, it looks like a Mongolian UFO.

                        It is not likely that I'll be coming to Pennsic soon... :( Plus, I don't
                        have the garb made yet. ;) But I'm glad someone thinks it's cool! How can
                        I miss the Mongolian UFO??

                        > Thank you! As a bushi I'm supposed to be artistic as well, so I play the
                        > flute and write poetry.

                        Excellent! Not many "bushi" we see around seem to be concerned with things
                        other than fighting. Of course, I'm speaking from hearsay because I've
                        never seen one around here.

                        >> "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
                        >> When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"
                        > Your's is quite similar to the Rubayyat, which I've always loved.

                        Yes, I love it, too. I'm more into the Spanish poetry, though...

                        > Very
                        > nihilistic. I like it...

                        Thanks! I try to write poetry in the proper style for Moshe (12th c. Spain)

                        > is there a page with more?

                        A page?

                        Stephen
                        --------------------------------------------------------
                        "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
                        When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"

                        --Moshe ibn Yishma'el, 1164
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... Cambridge History of Japan vol. 1. Sansom, vol. 1. Farris, Heavenly Warriors. Barnes, Protohistoric Yamato. Most of the other titles I can recommend are
                        Message 11 of 26 , Apr 22, 2001
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                          stephen higa wrote:

                          > > Being a member of a "be" is just fine. There were lots of "be". The
                          > > real problem is coming up
                          > > with a given name.
                          >
                          > Yeah...I'll have to look through my library, or ask some of the professors
                          > here for good sources. Or do you have any to recommend?
                          >

                          Cambridge History of Japan vol. 1.
                          Sansom, vol. 1.
                          Farris, Heavenly Warriors.
                          Barnes, Protohistoric Yamato.

                          Most of the other titles I can recommend are Japanese.

                          Effingham
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... Hiraizumi is Shingon. ... Well, I have a couple of shakuhachi, and last year I had to sell my koto... Effingham
                          Message 12 of 26 , Apr 22, 2001
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                            stephen higa wrote:

                            >
                            > Amen! Do any of you have a Buddhist persona, but you're not mundanely
                            > Buddhist?
                            >

                            Hiraizumi is Shingon.

                            > > Thank you! As a bushi I'm supposed to be artistic as well, so I play the
                            > > flute and write poetry.
                            >
                            > Excellent! Not many "bushi" we see around seem to be concerned with things
                            > other than fighting. Of course, I'm speaking from hearsay because I've
                            > never seen one around here.
                            >

                            Well, I have a couple of shakuhachi, and last year I had to sell my koto...



                            Effingham
                          • Barbara Nostrand
                            Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! You had to sell you koto??? Aren t you receiving some sort of support from being a graduate student? Your Humble
                            Message 13 of 26 , Apr 22, 2001
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                              Baron Edward!

                              Greetings from Solveig! You "had" to sell you koto???
                              Aren't you receiving some sort of support from being
                              a graduate student?

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar
                              --
                              +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... Afraid not. I m funding it m self. Effingham
                              Message 14 of 26 , Apr 22, 2001
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                                Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                > Baron Edward!
                                >
                                > Greetings from Solveig! You "had" to sell you koto???
                                > Aren't you receiving some sort of support from being
                                > a graduate student?
                                >

                                Afraid not. I'm funding it m'self.


                                Effingham
                              • Barbara Nostrand
                                Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! OUCH! You are as big of a sucker as I am. I did that too. The year I got my Ph.D. there was a negative correlation (sp)
                                Message 15 of 26 , Apr 23, 2001
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                                  Baron Edward!

                                  Greetings from Solveig! OUCH! You are as big of a sucker as
                                  I am. I did that too. The year I got my Ph.D. there was a
                                  negative correlation (sp) between having received funding and
                                  actually obtaining a Ph.D. Well, at least you have a parental unit
                                  who sends you on spiffy trips. But still, selling your koto?
                                  Gack! Couldn't you find a few students who wanted to learn
                                  how to say "kore wa pen desu" ?? That is what your professional
                                  future holds in store for you. It isn't any better in mathematics
                                  departments since the elementary schools stopped teaching
                                  arithmetic. And, too many C.S. students think that they will
                                  be paid big bucks for playing computer games. Such is life in
                                  tuition dependent institutions of lower learning. At least you
                                  are elligible for Fulbrights. (I got a packet about Fulbrights
                                  in the mail a week or so ago and am really annoyed by the fact
                                  that they would consider me inelligible. I could really use a
                                  nice 12 month stay in Dainihon.)

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar
                                  --
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                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... Our department just has a shortage of funds compared to the number of students (and there aren t that many of us to start with!). Part of the problem is
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Apr 23, 2001
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                                    Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                    > Baron Edward!
                                    >
                                    > Greetings from Solveig! OUCH! You are as big of a sucker as
                                    > I am. I did that too. The year I got my Ph.D. there was a
                                    > negative correlation (sp) between having received funding and
                                    > actually obtaining a Ph.D.

                                    Our department just has a shortage of funds compared to the number of students (and there aren't that many of us to start with!). Part of
                                    the problem is that they keep giving the Japanese and Chinese AI positions *not* to those of us in the department, but to students from
                                    any old department who are native Japanese or Chinese, thus throwing away what little money we *do* have. Sigh.

                                    > Well, at least you have a parental unit
                                    > who sends you on spiffy trips.

                                    Once every fifteen years, yes.

                                    > But still, selling your koto?
                                    > Gack!

                                    An otoko's gotta do what an otoko's gotta do...

                                    > Couldn't you find a few students who wanted to learn
                                    > how to say "kore wa pen desu" ??

                                    Unfortunately, I would be teaching them "Kore fude nari"... <G>

                                    > That is what your professional
                                    > future holds in store for you. It isn't any better in mathematics
                                    > departments since the elementary schools stopped teaching
                                    > arithmetic. And, too many C.S. students think that they will
                                    > be paid big bucks for playing computer games. Such is life in
                                    > tuition dependent institutions of lower learning. At least you
                                    > are elligible for Fulbrights. (I got a packet about Fulbrights
                                    > in the mail a week or so ago and am really annoyed by the fact
                                    > that they would consider me inelligible. I could really use a
                                    > nice 12 month stay in Dainihon.)
                                    >
                                    >

                                    I don't qualify for the Fullbrights, either. They seem to prefer sending people who have limited exposure to the language. "So.. let's get
                                    this right... you want people to conduct research, but you don't want people who CAN conduct research do it?" ...

                                    Effingham
                                  • Barbara Nostrand
                                    Baron Edward! ... tsurai yo! Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar NOTE to the perplexed. That was supposed to be an allusion. I don t
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Apr 23, 2001
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                                      Baron Edward!

                                      >An otoko's gotta do what an otoko's gotta do...

                                      tsurai yo!

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      NOTE to the perplexed. That was supposed to be an
                                      allusion. I don't expect anyone other than Baron
                                      Edward to get it.
                                      --
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                                    • stephen higa
                                      Thank you so much for giving me the pointers, Solveig and Effingham! ... Okay! I just got Sansom s first volume, as well as Prehistoric Japan; New
                                      Message 18 of 26 , May 9, 2001
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                                        Thank you so much for giving me the pointers, Solveig and Effingham!

                                        > Then you definitely need Sansom's first volume, Cambridge's first, and so on.
                                        > Great stuff to start with.

                                        Okay! I just got Sansom's first volume, as well as "Prehistoric Japan; New
                                        Perspectives on Insular East Asia" by Keiji Imamura, "Ancient Myths and
                                        Early History of Japan" by Michiko Y. Aoki, and "Japan Before Buddhism"
                                        (more archaeological than historiographical) by J. E. Kidder, Jr.

                                        > Please tell me you want to fight....

                                        Sorry. :( I've seen too many people do that in my group to think that it's
                                        interesting, and I want to provide an alternative in the group to the
                                        fencer/fighter. Plus I'm not generally competitive, and I'm always afraid
                                        of hurting people. ;)

                                        > Do you speak/read Japanese? There are a few good sources, but most aren't
                                        > English.

                                        I can hold simple conversations with my sister and grandmother (who seems to
                                        speak a weird combination of Okinawan, Japanese, and Hawaiian pidgin). I
                                        can read hiragana, katakana, and some kanji, but 90% of the time I don't
                                        know what it's saying. :( So that's not helpful in understanding
                                        complicated historical texts...

                                        I'm thinking the rice-farming be (Tanabe or Tabe, according to Sansom) would
                                        be nice and simple. On the other hand, Urabe (diviners) sounds quite
                                        compelling...

                                        Can I just choose one of the given names cited in the Kojiki when he says
                                        "at that time there was a court attendant whose surname was Piyeda and his
                                        given name Are" and "Again, in the case of surnames like Kusaka,...and given
                                        names such as Tarasi...the traditional way of writing has been followed
                                        without change." That way I won't be mixing up titles and things like I did
                                        before...Or am I? Would it be something like Tanabe no Are or Urabe no
                                        Tarasi? Or do you have a good English source you can recommend for given
                                        names? Or a page in Sansom? I should go and get the Cambridge ones.
                                        I know the names aren't explicitly 5th c., but at least they're approaching
                                        ancientness...

                                        I have a question about the magatama (those comma-shaped beads). It's sort
                                        of confusing as to just who would wear them; anybody? Or only important
                                        people?

                                        thank you so much for humoring a naggy little pre-historic non-conformist
                                        like me. ;)
                                        stephen
                                        --------------------------------------------------------
                                        "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
                                        When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"

                                        --Moshe ibn Yishma'el, 1164
                                      • Barbara Nostrand
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! There is a lot of uncertainty about the magatama. At least one theory has it being used as a device for stripping grain
                                        Message 19 of 26 , May 10, 2001
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                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig! There is a lot of uncertainty about
                                          the magatama. At least one theory has it being used as a
                                          device for stripping grain from the plant without actually
                                          cutting the plant stalk. The magatama is very very early.
                                          If you are intersted in kofun, then you are interested in
                                          a somewhat later culture which had metal and terracotta
                                          figures and all sorts of other continental stuff.

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar
                                          --
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                                        • stephen higa
                                          Oh, I mean the little beads. :) But that s interesting; the term originally referred to an agricultural item? I m beginning to see the symbolism here, for
                                          Message 20 of 26 , May 12, 2001
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                                            Oh, I mean the little beads. :) But that's interesting; the term
                                            originally referred to an agricultural item? I'm beginning to see the
                                            symbolism here, for good luck --> good harvest --> fertility --> abundance,
                                            etc...

                                            stephen
                                            --------------------------------------------------------
                                            "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
                                            When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"

                                            --Moshe ibn Yishma'el, 1164

                                            ----------
                                            >From: Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...>
                                            >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                            >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Kofun!
                                            >Date: Thu, May 10, 2001, 10:13 AM
                                            >

                                            > Noble Cousin!
                                            >
                                            > Greetings from Solveig! There is a lot of uncertainty about
                                            > the magatama. At least one theory has it being used as a
                                            > device for stripping grain from the plant without actually
                                            > cutting the plant stalk. The magatama is very very early.
                                            > If you are intersted in kofun, then you are interested in
                                            > a somewhat later culture which had metal and terracotta
                                            > figures and all sorts of other continental stuff.
                                            >
                                            > Your Humble Servant
                                            > Solveig Throndardottir
                                            > Amateur Scholar
                                            > --
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                                            >
                                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                                            ... Are we talking magatama as in bead or something else? Effingham
                                            Message 21 of 26 , May 16, 2001
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                                              Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Greetings from Solveig! There is a lot of uncertainty about
                                              > the magatama. At least one theory has it being used as a
                                              > device for stripping grain from the plant without actually
                                              > cutting the plant stalk.

                                              Are we talking magatama as in bead or something else?



                                              Effingham
                                            • Barbara Nostrand
                                              Baron Edward! We are taling magatama as in a stone slightly crescent shaped thing which sometimes has a hole in one end. You can see them at the National
                                              Message 22 of 26 , May 16, 2001
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                                                Baron Edward!

                                                We are taling magatama as in a stone slightly crescent shaped
                                                thing which sometimes has a hole in one end. You can see them
                                                at the National Museum at Ueno and in book illustrations among
                                                other places. I know someone who has one.

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar
                                                --
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                                              • Anthony J. Bryant
                                                ... Again, I *know* what magatama are (I had one once, too. [Shh. ] Don t know where it went.) It sounded like you were talking about some farm implement.
                                                Message 23 of 26 , May 16, 2001
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                                                  Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                                                  > Baron Edward!
                                                  >
                                                  > We are taling magatama as in a stone slightly crescent shaped
                                                  > thing which sometimes has a hole in one end. You can see them
                                                  > at the National Museum at Ueno and in book illustrations among
                                                  > other places. I know someone who has one.
                                                  >

                                                  Again, I *know* what magatama are (I had one once, too. [Shh. <G>] Don't
                                                  know where it went.) It sounded like you were talking about some farm
                                                  implement.

                                                  Most of what I've read on them is they are still being considered likely to
                                                  have been emblems of rank or some social status, so their "function" is
                                                  decorative/iconic rather than practical as tools; even then, if they
                                                  represent some other tool that had an agricultural purpose, I've not seen
                                                  any evidence of it (and Barnes says nothing, IIRC, in "Protohistoric Yamato"
                                                  about that) or of these tools whatever they might be. I find it interesting
                                                  that the social elite seem to have worn these, then, rather than the hoi
                                                  polloi who grew the grains and who would have needed such a tool if that is
                                                  what they were.

                                                  Effingham
                                                • stephen higa
                                                  ... Whoops! Sorry, I meant the bead! :) Maybe the material they were made out of had something to do with one s status; for example, maybe I would use clay
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , May 16, 2001
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                                                    > Are we talking magatama as in bead or something else?

                                                    Whoops! Sorry, I meant the bead! :)

                                                    Maybe the material they were made out of had something to do with one's
                                                    status; for example, maybe I would use clay instead of jade or some other
                                                    fancy material...

                                                    stephen
                                                    --------------------------------------------------------
                                                    "How can I deign to caress your rose-dressed cheeks
                                                    When I will soon be dressed in myrrh, a shroud, and the cold earth?"

                                                    --Moshe ibn Yishma'el, 1164
                                                  • Barbara Nostrand
                                                    Baron Edward! Greetings from Solveig! Remember that many magatama do not have holes. Only some of them do. Also, cereal grain cultivation was not such a well
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , May 16, 2001
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                                                      Baron Edward!

                                                      Greetings from Solveig! Remember that many magatama do not
                                                      have holes. Only some of them do. Also, cereal grain cultivation
                                                      was not such a well organized affair in Jomon period Japan.

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar
                                                      --
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                                                    • Barbara Nostrand
                                                      Lord Stephen! Greetings from Solveig! ... Try rock. Plain old rock. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar --
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , May 16, 2001
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                                                        Lord Stephen!

                                                        Greetings from Solveig!

                                                        >status; for example, maybe I would use clay instead of jade or some
                                                        >other fancy material...

                                                        Try rock. Plain old rock.

                                                        Your Humble Servant
                                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                                        Amateur Scholar
                                                        --
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