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Re: [SCA-JML] sword question for SCA events

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  • Andrea Gideon
    ... In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from the site, not an SCA rule. Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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      "J. Badgley" wrote:

      > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, M & A wrote:
      >
      > > OK this may be a dumb question to many of you but at an event are real
      > > swords allowed to be carried while in period dress? I would like to
      > > carry my Katana and Wakizashi but I dont know if thats allowed.
      >
      > Up here, yes. I don't think there is a society rule against it. At the
      > same time, mine is only an iaitou--an unsharpened blade.

      In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from the
      site, not an SCA rule. Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
      local/state parks, which don't allow liquor or weapons. Be careful before
      bringing any live steel to an event. On transgressor can get the whole group
      thrown off the site.
      Nadeshiko
    • J. Badgley
      ... I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as live steel or even a weapon? For those who don t know, an iaitou is an unsharpened
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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        On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Andrea Gideon wrote:

        > In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from the
        > site, not an SCA rule. Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
        > local/state parks, which don't allow liquor or weapons. Be careful before
        > bringing any live steel to an event. On transgressor can get the whole group
        > thrown off the site.

        I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as 'live
        steel' or even a weapon? For those who don't know, an iaitou is an
        unsharpened practice blade for iaidou. Not only is it unsharpened, but
        this one, at least, can't be sharpened (at least, no more than any other
        piece of metal--and it isn't made to hold an edge). That's why the
        Japanese government will let you keep one of these things in country
        without special permits and storage. I don't know what all of the rules
        are here, though.

        -Ii
      • Blkrose@aol.com
        Konnichiwa, I live in the Midrealm [NE Ohio], and have never had any problems with wearing live steel at events. Though I also recommend that you speak to the
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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          Konnichiwa,

          I live in the Midrealm [NE Ohio], and have never had any problems with
          wearing live steel at events.  Though I also recommend that you speak to the
          people in your kingdom regarding your areas special laws. As long as its worn
          with the appropriate costume, and you are not endangering yourself or anyone
          else, its always been ok in this kingdom, in MY experiance. It is appropriate
          to keep the blade peace bound to the scabbard so that no one can remove it
          easily. If you do remove the blade to show it off :0), an old tradition of
          the Mid is to call out CLEAR before you do so. It acts as a way to get
          everyones attention in your proximity so they don't come running thru where
          you are with a live blade out. [This cry is not super loud, but should be
          loud enough so that people in say a 10-15' radius around you will here, it is
          important to do this with a calm, not threatening voice also.]

          Make sure that you do not wear the blade into any other "public" areas. Such
          as a restuarant, convenient store, gas station, etc.. Only at an event, and
          only if the state and Autocrat approve.

          An Iaito would most likely be considered a "practice" weapon as long as you
          were in the dojo or back yard practicing Kata. If you were brandishing it
          about in town square, it definately would be considered a live blade by the
          court systems. IMHO :0)      Though they are dull [the iaito :0) ] and
          usually of an  aluminum-derillium alloy, they can still do
          significant...................... "concern".

          What do you study?

          Respectfully, :0)

          Syr Theodric von Rostock




          On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Andrea Gideon wrote:

          > In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from
          the
          > site, not an SCA rule.  Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
          > local/state parks, which don't allow liquor or weapons. Be careful before
          > bringing any live steel to an event.  On transgressor can get the whole
          group
          > thrown off the site.

          I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as 'live
          steel' or even a weapon?  For those who don't know, an iaitou is an
          unsharpened practice blade for iaidou.  Not only is it unsharpened, but
          this one, at least, can't be sharpened (at least, no more than any other
          piece of metal--and it isn't made to hold an edge).  That's why the
          Japanese government will let you keep one of these things in country
          without special permits and storage.  I don't know what all of the rules
          are here, though.

          -Ii


        • Chris Gregory
          I m not sure about other places, but down here in Black Diamond, Atlantia, the custom is to only wear steel in court if you have an Award of Arms (or you have
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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            I'm not sure about other places, but down here in Black Diamond, Atlantia,
            the custom is to only wear steel in court if you have an Award of Arms (or
            you have so many that it would be inconveniencing everyone else to take them
            off when called up.) In the event in general, you'd need to check with the
            autocrat and authorities first. Eating knives are not a weapon, and you
            might be able to pass off a sharp tanto as an eating knife.

            About the sharpness factor, you can certainly injure someone with an Iaitou,
            but then again you can kill someone with a pencil, but those aren't illegal.
            It depends on how you use it and in what circumstances you use it.

            PS: What is the history of the bokken? I have one and want to bring it to
            events, but I'm not sure of the chronology of it.

            Hai,
            Richard till further notice

            --
            "A monk in all seriousness asked Joshu 'Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?'
            Joshu retorted 'Mu!'"
            Koan 1, Mumonkan, Wu-men
          • Andrea Gideon
            ... I think it depends on who s evaluating it. If we re talking about whether or not you could where it to a no live steel event, that would depend on how
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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              >
              >
              > I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as 'live
              > steel' or even a weapon?
              >
              > -Ii
              >

              I think it depends on who's evaluating it. If we're talking about whether or not
              you could where it to a "no live steel" event, that would depend on how strict he
              policy was. We have a couple sites that don't even allow fencing weapons with
              blunt tips.
              Nadeshiko
            • J. Badgley
              ... So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there be a wooden blade. BTW, for whoever was asking about wooden blades: I saw
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                > This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy
                > fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.

                So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there
                be a wooden blade.

                BTW, for whoever was asking about wooden blades: I saw something claiming
                that wooden blades had been in use since about the time swords came to
                Japan. Bokken or Bokutou have been training tools for a long time; the
                concept of a shinai didn't come around until much later and then it was a
                leather bag covering bamboo cut into 16-32 strips. IIRC, it's
                introduction was to allow the practitioners to actually make combat at
                something resembling full force, rather than pulling the blows as they had
                to learn to do with the bokutou.

                -Ii
              • Ash Smith
                I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and made a
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                  I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so
                  good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and
                  made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening technique)
                  He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                  But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he considered of
                  equal/close skill in combat.

                  Anyone know if this is just a myth or?

                  --Ash


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: J. Badgley <fsjlb4@...>
                  To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:20 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] sword question for SCA events


                  > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                  >
                  > > This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with
                  the fancy
                  > > fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.
                  >
                  > So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there
                  > be a wooden blade.
                  >
                  > BTW, for whoever was asking about wooden blades: I saw something claiming
                  > that wooden blades had been in use since about the time swords came to
                  > Japan. Bokken or Bokutou have been training tools for a long time; the
                  > concept of a shinai didn't come around until much later and then it was a
                  > leather bag covering bamboo cut into 16-32 strips. IIRC, it's
                  > introduction was to allow the practitioners to actually make combat at
                  > something resembling full force, rather than pulling the blows as they had
                  > to learn to do with the bokutou.
                  >
                  > -Ii
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                • J. Badgley
                  ... I ve never heard of someone doing that--it sounds like a good story, but probably blown out of proportion. There is the story of Musashi taking on a
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                    On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Ash Smith wrote:

                    > I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so
                    > good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and
                    > made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening technique)
                    > He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                    > But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he considered of
                    > equal/close skill in combat.
                    >
                    > Anyone know if this is just a myth or?

                    I've never heard of someone doing that--it sounds like a good story, but
                    probably blown out of proportion.

                    There is the story of Musashi taking on a challenger with a wooden oar
                    rather than a sword. Also, I've read many tales of duels with wooden
                    swords because the combatants wanted to test each other but didn't want to
                    kill each other. Not all samurai had the 'death wish' mentality we often
                    seem to give them (I'd argue that most would rather live, actually).

                    I've also read about the 'no sword' techniques, but am unclear as to what
                    that meant.


                    -Ii
                  • Melissa Hoy
                    Just thought I would share an amusing anecdote about myself and my live steel... I was at a demo in a large mall, for the opening of First Knight (that
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                      Just thought I would share an amusing anecdote about myself and my live
                      steel...

                      I was at a demo in a large mall, for the opening of 'First Knight' (that
                      interesting movie with Sean Connery and that other cute guy...) and forgot
                      that I was wearing my sword, it being a normal part of my garb.

                      I did not notice the looks folks were giving me and my friends, nor did I
                      notice that a security guard had been trailing myself and my companions
                      until his partner cut us off and he caught up with us. It took us about
                      twenty minutes to explain that we were not dangerous and why we were wearing
                      funny clothes. They escorted us to our vehicles and watched us lock our
                      swords in my friends trunk. Not once did they relax until our swords were
                      locked away.

                      We were followed back into the mall and around to the theatres. The guards
                      were still there when the movie got out...

                      And the entertaining bit: The movie was sponsored by a country radio
                      station... The theatre was full of cowboys... *Grin*

                      So, steel bearers beware! ^_^

                      Hatakeyama no Kaede,
                      Kingdom of Artemesia
                      Barony Loch Salann
                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy fittings for court wear, that has no real blade. Effingham
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 5, 2001
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                        Andrea Gideon wrote:

                        >
                        > I think it depends on who's evaluating it. If we're talking about whether or not
                        > you could where it to a "no live steel" event, that would depend on how strict he
                        > policy was. We have a couple sites that don't even allow fencing weapons with
                        > blunt tips.

                        This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy
                        fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.

                        Effingham
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... If I did it the real way it would be. I may just make it all one big piece. Effingham
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 5, 2001
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                          "J. Badgley" wrote:

                          > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                          >
                          > > This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy
                          > > fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.
                          >
                          > So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there
                          > be a wooden blade.
                          >

                          If I did it the real way it would be. I may just make it all one big piece.

                          Effingham
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... Sounds like someone s embellishing a Miyamoto Musashi story. He used a wooden oar he cut down for his fight with Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu Island. But he
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 5, 2001
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                            Ash Smith wrote:

                            > I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so
                            > good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and
                            > made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening technique)
                            > He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                            > But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he considered of
                            > equal/close skill in combat.

                            Sounds like someone's embellishing a Miyamoto Musashi story.

                            He used a wooden oar he cut down for his fight with Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu
                            Island. But he used real swords alla time.


                            Effingham
                          • miles_robinson@hotmail.com
                            My understanding was that the one in question was Musashi after he turned about 29 or 30. The story that I had read as a forward to his Book of Five Rings was
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 10, 2001
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                              My understanding was that the one in question was Musashi after he
                              turned about 29 or 30. The story that I had read as a forward to his
                              Book of Five Rings was that he no longer needed the swords and so did
                              not use them. According to his theory( premis, philosophy, whatever)
                              the weapon didn't matter. Once the man had made himself invinceable,
                              he could defeat others with his spirit alone. Since he lived another
                              30 or so years and survived about 20 more duels, I guess he knew what
                              he was talking about.

                              The sticks used in his two sword school are described in much the
                              same way as the ones described below. There is also a screen of
                              Musashi practicing with two sticks. It is one of the two popular
                              representations of him and the one most often chosed for the Book of
                              Five Rings cover.

                              My .02

                              Miles


                              --- In sca-jml@y..., "J. Badgley" <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
                              > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Ash Smith wrote:
                              >
                              > > I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who
                              became so
                              > > good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in
                              combat, and
                              > > made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening
                              technique)
                              > > He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                              > > But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he
                              considered of
                              > > equal/close skill in combat.
                              > >
                              > > Anyone know if this is just a myth or?
                              >
                              > I've never heard of someone doing that--it sounds like a good
                              story, but
                              > probably blown out of proportion.
                              >
                              > There is the story of Musashi taking on a challenger with a wooden
                              oar
                              > rather than a sword. Also, I've read many tales of duels with
                              wooden
                              > swords because the combatants wanted to test each other but didn't
                              want to
                              > kill each other. Not all samurai had the 'death wish' mentality we
                              often
                              > seem to give them (I'd argue that most would rather live, actually).
                              >
                              > I've also read about the 'no sword' techniques, but am unclear as
                              to what
                              > that meant.
                              >
                              >
                              > -Ii
                            • Nate Ledbetter
                              ... There is also a story about Tsukuhara Bokuden, who predated Musashi by about 50 years or so. When on a boat ride, some gruff character was bragging about
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 10, 2001
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                                --- miles_robinson@... wrote:
                                > My understanding was that the one in question was
                                > Musashi after he
                                > turned about 29 or 30. The story that I had read as
                                > a forward to his
                                > Book of Five Rings was that he no longer needed the
                                > swords and so did
                                > not use them.


                                There is also a story about Tsukuhara Bokuden, who
                                predated Musashi by about 50 years or so. When on a
                                boat ride, some gruff character was bragging about how
                                good he was and asked what Bokuden's school was.
                                Bokuden replied "Mutekatsu-ryu", or "the winning
                                without hands (swords)" school. Having obviously never
                                heard of this school, the braggart challenged Bokuden,
                                and Bokuden suggested they row to a little island to
                                settle the matter. When they got there, the braggart
                                hopped out, but turned around to see Bokuden push the
                                boat from shore, stranding him on the island. Bokuden
                                beat his opponent without "hands"....

                                This was the inspiration for the incident in Bruce
                                Lee's "Enter the Dragon"...great scene.

                                Shonaigawa

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