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Re: [SCA-JML] sword question for SCA events

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  • J. Badgley
    ... Up here, yes. I don t think there is a society rule against it. At the same time, mine is only an iaitou--an unsharpened blade. Nonetheless, I ve seen a
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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      On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, M & A wrote:

      > OK this may be a dumb question to many of you but at an event are real
      > swords allowed to be carried while in period dress? I would like to
      > carry my Katana and Wakizashi but I dont know if thats allowed.

      Up here, yes. I don't think there is a society rule against it. At the
      same time, mine is only an iaitou--an unsharpened blade.

      Nonetheless, I've seen a plethora of pictures of people with their arms by
      their sides at SCA events. Check with the autocrat, though, if you have
      any real concerns.

      -Ii
    • M & A
      OK this may be a dumb question to many of you but at an event are real swords allowed to be carried while in period dress? I would like to carry my Katana and
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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        OK this may be a dumb question to many of you but at an event are real swords allowed to be carried while in period dress?  I would like to carry my Katana and Wakizashi but I dont know if thats allowed.
         
        Thanks
         
        Mori
      • Andrea Gideon
        ... In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from the site, not an SCA rule. Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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          "J. Badgley" wrote:

          > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, M & A wrote:
          >
          > > OK this may be a dumb question to many of you but at an event are real
          > > swords allowed to be carried while in period dress? I would like to
          > > carry my Katana and Wakizashi but I dont know if thats allowed.
          >
          > Up here, yes. I don't think there is a society rule against it. At the
          > same time, mine is only an iaitou--an unsharpened blade.

          In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from the
          site, not an SCA rule. Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
          local/state parks, which don't allow liquor or weapons. Be careful before
          bringing any live steel to an event. On transgressor can get the whole group
          thrown off the site.
          Nadeshiko
        • J. Badgley
          ... I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as live steel or even a weapon? For those who don t know, an iaitou is an unsharpened
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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            On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Andrea Gideon wrote:

            > In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from the
            > site, not an SCA rule. Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
            > local/state parks, which don't allow liquor or weapons. Be careful before
            > bringing any live steel to an event. On transgressor can get the whole group
            > thrown off the site.

            I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as 'live
            steel' or even a weapon? For those who don't know, an iaitou is an
            unsharpened practice blade for iaidou. Not only is it unsharpened, but
            this one, at least, can't be sharpened (at least, no more than any other
            piece of metal--and it isn't made to hold an edge). That's why the
            Japanese government will let you keep one of these things in country
            without special permits and storage. I don't know what all of the rules
            are here, though.

            -Ii
          • Blkrose@aol.com
            Konnichiwa, I live in the Midrealm [NE Ohio], and have never had any problems with wearing live steel at events. Though I also recommend that you speak to the
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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              Konnichiwa,

              I live in the Midrealm [NE Ohio], and have never had any problems with
              wearing live steel at events.  Though I also recommend that you speak to the
              people in your kingdom regarding your areas special laws. As long as its worn
              with the appropriate costume, and you are not endangering yourself or anyone
              else, its always been ok in this kingdom, in MY experiance. It is appropriate
              to keep the blade peace bound to the scabbard so that no one can remove it
              easily. If you do remove the blade to show it off :0), an old tradition of
              the Mid is to call out CLEAR before you do so. It acts as a way to get
              everyones attention in your proximity so they don't come running thru where
              you are with a live blade out. [This cry is not super loud, but should be
              loud enough so that people in say a 10-15' radius around you will here, it is
              important to do this with a calm, not threatening voice also.]

              Make sure that you do not wear the blade into any other "public" areas. Such
              as a restuarant, convenient store, gas station, etc.. Only at an event, and
              only if the state and Autocrat approve.

              An Iaito would most likely be considered a "practice" weapon as long as you
              were in the dojo or back yard practicing Kata. If you were brandishing it
              about in town square, it definately would be considered a live blade by the
              court systems. IMHO :0)      Though they are dull [the iaito :0) ] and
              usually of an  aluminum-derillium alloy, they can still do
              significant...................... "concern".

              What do you study?

              Respectfully, :0)

              Syr Theodric von Rostock




              On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Andrea Gideon wrote:

              > In my area, live steel is not allowed, but this is generally a rule from
              the
              > site, not an SCA rule.  Most of our sites are churches, public schools and
              > local/state parks, which don't allow liquor or weapons. Be careful before
              > bringing any live steel to an event.  On transgressor can get the whole
              group
              > thrown off the site.

              I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as 'live
              steel' or even a weapon?  For those who don't know, an iaitou is an
              unsharpened practice blade for iaidou.  Not only is it unsharpened, but
              this one, at least, can't be sharpened (at least, no more than any other
              piece of metal--and it isn't made to hold an edge).  That's why the
              Japanese government will let you keep one of these things in country
              without special permits and storage.  I don't know what all of the rules
              are here, though.

              -Ii


            • Chris Gregory
              I m not sure about other places, but down here in Black Diamond, Atlantia, the custom is to only wear steel in court if you have an Award of Arms (or you have
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 3, 2001
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                I'm not sure about other places, but down here in Black Diamond, Atlantia,
                the custom is to only wear steel in court if you have an Award of Arms (or
                you have so many that it would be inconveniencing everyone else to take them
                off when called up.) In the event in general, you'd need to check with the
                autocrat and authorities first. Eating knives are not a weapon, and you
                might be able to pass off a sharp tanto as an eating knife.

                About the sharpness factor, you can certainly injure someone with an Iaitou,
                but then again you can kill someone with a pencil, but those aren't illegal.
                It depends on how you use it and in what circumstances you use it.

                PS: What is the history of the bokken? I have one and want to bring it to
                events, but I'm not sure of the chronology of it.

                Hai,
                Richard till further notice

                --
                "A monk in all seriousness asked Joshu 'Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?'
                Joshu retorted 'Mu!'"
                Koan 1, Mumonkan, Wu-men
              • Andrea Gideon
                ... I think it depends on who s evaluating it. If we re talking about whether or not you could where it to a no live steel event, that would depend on how
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                  >
                  >
                  > I am still curious--do people believe that an iaitou counts as 'live
                  > steel' or even a weapon?
                  >
                  > -Ii
                  >

                  I think it depends on who's evaluating it. If we're talking about whether or not
                  you could where it to a "no live steel" event, that would depend on how strict he
                  policy was. We have a couple sites that don't even allow fencing weapons with
                  blunt tips.
                  Nadeshiko
                • J. Badgley
                  ... So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there be a wooden blade. BTW, for whoever was asking about wooden blades: I saw
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                    On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                    > This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy
                    > fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.

                    So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there
                    be a wooden blade.

                    BTW, for whoever was asking about wooden blades: I saw something claiming
                    that wooden blades had been in use since about the time swords came to
                    Japan. Bokken or Bokutou have been training tools for a long time; the
                    concept of a shinai didn't come around until much later and then it was a
                    leather bag covering bamboo cut into 16-32 strips. IIRC, it's
                    introduction was to allow the practitioners to actually make combat at
                    something resembling full force, rather than pulling the blows as they had
                    to learn to do with the bokutou.

                    -Ii
                  • Ash Smith
                    I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and made a
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                      I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so
                      good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and
                      made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening technique)
                      He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                      But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he considered of
                      equal/close skill in combat.

                      Anyone know if this is just a myth or?

                      --Ash


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: J. Badgley <fsjlb4@...>
                      To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 4:20 PM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] sword question for SCA events


                      > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                      >
                      > > This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with
                      the fancy
                      > > fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.
                      >
                      > So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there
                      > be a wooden blade.
                      >
                      > BTW, for whoever was asking about wooden blades: I saw something claiming
                      > that wooden blades had been in use since about the time swords came to
                      > Japan. Bokken or Bokutou have been training tools for a long time; the
                      > concept of a shinai didn't come around until much later and then it was a
                      > leather bag covering bamboo cut into 16-32 strips. IIRC, it's
                      > introduction was to allow the practitioners to actually make combat at
                      > something resembling full force, rather than pulling the blows as they had
                      > to learn to do with the bokutou.
                      >
                      > -Ii
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                    • J. Badgley
                      ... I ve never heard of someone doing that--it sounds like a good story, but probably blown out of proportion. There is the story of Musashi taking on a
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                        On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Ash Smith wrote:

                        > I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so
                        > good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and
                        > made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening technique)
                        > He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                        > But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he considered of
                        > equal/close skill in combat.
                        >
                        > Anyone know if this is just a myth or?

                        I've never heard of someone doing that--it sounds like a good story, but
                        probably blown out of proportion.

                        There is the story of Musashi taking on a challenger with a wooden oar
                        rather than a sword. Also, I've read many tales of duels with wooden
                        swords because the combatants wanted to test each other but didn't want to
                        kill each other. Not all samurai had the 'death wish' mentality we often
                        seem to give them (I'd argue that most would rather live, actually).

                        I've also read about the 'no sword' techniques, but am unclear as to what
                        that meant.


                        -Ii
                      • Melissa Hoy
                        Just thought I would share an amusing anecdote about myself and my live steel... I was at a demo in a large mall, for the opening of First Knight (that
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 4, 2001
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                          Just thought I would share an amusing anecdote about myself and my live
                          steel...

                          I was at a demo in a large mall, for the opening of 'First Knight' (that
                          interesting movie with Sean Connery and that other cute guy...) and forgot
                          that I was wearing my sword, it being a normal part of my garb.

                          I did not notice the looks folks were giving me and my friends, nor did I
                          notice that a security guard had been trailing myself and my companions
                          until his partner cut us off and he caught up with us. It took us about
                          twenty minutes to explain that we were not dangerous and why we were wearing
                          funny clothes. They escorted us to our vehicles and watched us lock our
                          swords in my friends trunk. Not once did they relax until our swords were
                          locked away.

                          We were followed back into the mall and around to the theatres. The guards
                          were still there when the movie got out...

                          And the entertaining bit: The movie was sponsored by a country radio
                          station... The theatre was full of cowboys... *Grin*

                          So, steel bearers beware! ^_^

                          Hatakeyama no Kaede,
                          Kingdom of Artemesia
                          Barony Loch Salann
                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy fittings for court wear, that has no real blade. Effingham
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 5, 2001
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                            Andrea Gideon wrote:

                            >
                            > I think it depends on who's evaluating it. If we're talking about whether or not
                            > you could where it to a "no live steel" event, that would depend on how strict he
                            > policy was. We have a couple sites that don't even allow fencing weapons with
                            > blunt tips.

                            This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy
                            fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.

                            Effingham
                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... If I did it the real way it would be. I may just make it all one big piece. Effingham
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 5, 2001
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                              "J. Badgley" wrote:

                              > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                              >
                              > > This is one reason I keep planning to make a gitou (a fake sword) with the fancy
                              > > fittings for court wear, that has no real blade.
                              >
                              > So, how would that work? A handle attached to a scabbard? Or would there
                              > be a wooden blade.
                              >

                              If I did it the real way it would be. I may just make it all one big piece.

                              Effingham
                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... Sounds like someone s embellishing a Miyamoto Musashi story. He used a wooden oar he cut down for his fight with Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu Island. But he
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 5, 2001
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                                Ash Smith wrote:

                                > I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who became so
                                > good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in combat, and
                                > made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening technique)
                                > He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                                > But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he considered of
                                > equal/close skill in combat.

                                Sounds like someone's embellishing a Miyamoto Musashi story.

                                He used a wooden oar he cut down for his fight with Sasaki Kojiro on Ganryu
                                Island. But he used real swords alla time.


                                Effingham
                              • miles_robinson@hotmail.com
                                My understanding was that the one in question was Musashi after he turned about 29 or 30. The story that I had read as a forward to his Book of Five Rings was
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 10, 2001
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                                  My understanding was that the one in question was Musashi after he
                                  turned about 29 or 30. The story that I had read as a forward to his
                                  Book of Five Rings was that he no longer needed the swords and so did
                                  not use them. According to his theory( premis, philosophy, whatever)
                                  the weapon didn't matter. Once the man had made himself invinceable,
                                  he could defeat others with his spirit alone. Since he lived another
                                  30 or so years and survived about 20 more duels, I guess he knew what
                                  he was talking about.

                                  The sticks used in his two sword school are described in much the
                                  same way as the ones described below. There is also a screen of
                                  Musashi practicing with two sticks. It is one of the two popular
                                  representations of him and the one most often chosed for the Book of
                                  Five Rings cover.

                                  My .02

                                  Miles


                                  --- In sca-jml@y..., "J. Badgley" <fsjlb4@a...> wrote:
                                  > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Ash Smith wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I had HEARD a story (note: not read) of a samurai in japan who
                                  became so
                                  > > good with a sword he felt it was unfair to use a metal blade in
                                  combat, and
                                  > > made a wooden sword which he sharpened (using a burn-hardening
                                  technique)
                                  > > He supposedly never lost a battle with his wooden sword(s?).
                                  > > But kept his metal one on him when he met with someone he
                                  considered of
                                  > > equal/close skill in combat.
                                  > >
                                  > > Anyone know if this is just a myth or?
                                  >
                                  > I've never heard of someone doing that--it sounds like a good
                                  story, but
                                  > probably blown out of proportion.
                                  >
                                  > There is the story of Musashi taking on a challenger with a wooden
                                  oar
                                  > rather than a sword. Also, I've read many tales of duels with
                                  wooden
                                  > swords because the combatants wanted to test each other but didn't
                                  want to
                                  > kill each other. Not all samurai had the 'death wish' mentality we
                                  often
                                  > seem to give them (I'd argue that most would rather live, actually).
                                  >
                                  > I've also read about the 'no sword' techniques, but am unclear as
                                  to what
                                  > that meant.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -Ii
                                • Nate Ledbetter
                                  ... There is also a story about Tsukuhara Bokuden, who predated Musashi by about 50 years or so. When on a boat ride, some gruff character was bragging about
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 10, 2001
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                                    --- miles_robinson@... wrote:
                                    > My understanding was that the one in question was
                                    > Musashi after he
                                    > turned about 29 or 30. The story that I had read as
                                    > a forward to his
                                    > Book of Five Rings was that he no longer needed the
                                    > swords and so did
                                    > not use them.


                                    There is also a story about Tsukuhara Bokuden, who
                                    predated Musashi by about 50 years or so. When on a
                                    boat ride, some gruff character was bragging about how
                                    good he was and asked what Bokuden's school was.
                                    Bokuden replied "Mutekatsu-ryu", or "the winning
                                    without hands (swords)" school. Having obviously never
                                    heard of this school, the braggart challenged Bokuden,
                                    and Bokuden suggested they row to a little island to
                                    settle the matter. When they got there, the braggart
                                    hopped out, but turned around to see Bokuden push the
                                    boat from shore, stranding him on the island. Bokuden
                                    beat his opponent without "hands"....

                                    This was the inspiration for the incident in Bruce
                                    Lee's "Enter the Dragon"...great scene.

                                    Shonaigawa

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