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Authenticity question, and quicky-armor idea

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  • Ash Smith
    Does anyone know if anything was worn on top of the hitatare when it was worn over armor? Did they continue to put on the kataginu on top of that, or did they
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 3, 2001
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      Does anyone know if anything was worn on top of the hitatare when it was
      worn over armor?

      Did they continue to put on the kataginu on top of that, or did they just
      stop at the hitatare?

      I am getting someone elses japanese armor in roughly July when he gets his
      new set, but for now I just need something that works...

      With that in mind, I have a gambison, and a quantity of plastic plates cut
      from a barrel (3"x2").
      I am thinking of making a hitatare out of trigger (it's like denim but
      thinner if anyone isn't familiar with it). and then pop-riveting the plastic
      plates to the inside of it. And wearing this on to of my gambison, and also
      wearing the hakama on the outside.

      Also, I am in Meridies, and they have a new rule that if you use plastic in
      your armor, it can not show/look plastic.


      Thanks,
      Ash
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Um... the hitatare is worn *under* armour. There are very few instances of wearing it over armour. When that s done (a late Sengoku thing) it s a jaunty,
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 3, 2001
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        Ash Smith wrote:

        > Does anyone know if anything was worn on top of the hitatare when it was
        > worn over armor?
        >

        Um... the hitatare is worn *under* armour. There are very few instances of
        wearing it over armour. When that's done (a late Sengoku thing) it's a jaunty,
        martial sort of look, and is only done by those of very high rank. No one goes
        to fight that way.

        >
        > Did they continue to put on the kataginu on top of that, or did they just
        > stop at the hitatare?

        The kataginu is a formal court robe. It and hitatare and armour are all
        mutually exclusive.

        >
        > I am getting someone elses japanese armor in roughly July when he gets his
        > new set, but for now I just need something that works...
        >
        > With that in mind, I have a gambison, and a quantity of plastic plates cut
        > from a barrel (3"x2").

        You don't wear a gambeson with Japanese armour. No padding at all, in fact.
        It's solid, you don't need to.

        Gambeson = European stuff

        >
        > I am thinking of making a hitatare out of trigger (it's like denim but
        > thinner if anyone isn't familiar with it). and then pop-riveting the plastic
        > plates to the inside of it. And wearing this on to of my gambison, and also
        > wearing the hakama on the outside.
        >

        Ummm... what *are* you doing? There are no plates in a gambeson, it's a jacket.

        Have you seen: http://www.geocities.com/sengokudaimyo/katchu/0.Home.html


        Effingham
      • Ash Smith
        Well in my area they refer to a padding you wear under your other armor as a gambison. Right now my goal isn t as much authentic looking armor as it is
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 3, 2001
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          Well in my area they refer to a padding you wear under your other armor as a
          gambison.

          Right now my goal isn't as much authentic looking armor as it is something
          that works and looks sorta of japanese.

          As for the wearing the articles of clothing over the armor I know it was
          rare, but one of the sites I was reading through a few days ago mentinoed it
          was done in battle as early as the 12th century, and contined even into the
          17th. In order to appear more militant/menacing.

          --Ash

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Anthony J. Bryant <ajbryant@...>
          To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 6:56 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Authenticity question, and quicky-armor idea


          > Ash Smith wrote:
          >
          > > Does anyone know if anything was worn on top of the hitatare when it was
          > > worn over armor?
          > >
          >
          > Um... the hitatare is worn *under* armour. There are very few instances of
          > wearing it over armour. When that's done (a late Sengoku thing) it's a
          jaunty,
          > martial sort of look, and is only done by those of very high rank. No one
          goes
          > to fight that way.
          >
          > >
          > > Did they continue to put on the kataginu on top of that, or did they
          just
          > > stop at the hitatare?
          >
          > The kataginu is a formal court robe. It and hitatare and armour are all
          > mutually exclusive.
          >
          > >
          > > I am getting someone elses japanese armor in roughly July when he gets
          his
          > > new set, but for now I just need something that works...
          > >
          > > With that in mind, I have a gambison, and a quantity of plastic plates
          cut
          > > from a barrel (3"x2").
          >
          > You don't wear a gambeson with Japanese armour. No padding at all, in
          fact.
          > It's solid, you don't need to.
          >
          > Gambeson = European stuff
          >
          > >
          > > I am thinking of making a hitatare out of trigger (it's like denim but
          > > thinner if anyone isn't familiar with it). and then pop-riveting the
          plastic
          > > plates to the inside of it. And wearing this on to of my gambison, and
          also
          > > wearing the hakama on the outside.
          > >
          >
          > Ummm... what *are* you doing? There are no plates in a gambeson, it's a
          jacket.
          >
          > Have you seen: http://www.geocities.com/sengokudaimyo/katchu/0.Home.html
          >
          >
          > Effingham
          >
          >
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
        • Ash Smith
          Pardon my missunderstanding.. I though the hitatare was the undershirt that went with the kataginu. Or is this a different vest alltogether than the
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 3, 2001
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            Pardon my missunderstanding.. I though the hitatare was the "undershirt"
            that went with the kataginu.

            Or is this a different "vest" alltogether than the kataginu?

            --Ash

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Anthony J. Bryant <ajbryant@...>
            To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 6:56 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Authenticity question, and quicky-armor idea


            > Ash Smith wrote:
            >
            > > Does anyone know if anything was worn on top of the hitatare when it was
            > > worn over armor?
            > >
            >
            > Um... the hitatare is worn *under* armour. There are very few instances of
            > wearing it over armour. When that's done (a late Sengoku thing) it's a
            jaunty,
            > martial sort of look, and is only done by those of very high rank. No one
            goes
            > to fight that way.
            >
            > >
            > > Did they continue to put on the kataginu on top of that, or did they
            just
            > > stop at the hitatare?
            >
            > The kataginu is a formal court robe. It and hitatare and armour are all
            > mutually exclusive.
            >
            > >
            > > I am getting someone elses japanese armor in roughly July when he gets
            his
            > > new set, but for now I just need something that works...
            > >
            > > With that in mind, I have a gambison, and a quantity of plastic plates
            cut
            > > from a barrel (3"x2").
            >
            > You don't wear a gambeson with Japanese armour. No padding at all, in
            fact.
            > It's solid, you don't need to.
            >
            > Gambeson = European stuff
            >
            > >
            > > I am thinking of making a hitatare out of trigger (it's like denim but
            > > thinner if anyone isn't familiar with it). and then pop-riveting the
            plastic
            > > plates to the inside of it. And wearing this on to of my gambison, and
            also
            > > wearing the hakama on the outside.
            > >
            >
            > Ummm... what *are* you doing? There are no plates in a gambeson, it's a
            jacket.
            >
            > Have you seen: http://www.geocities.com/sengokudaimyo/katchu/0.Home.html
            >
            >
            > Effingham
            >
            >
            >
            > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
          • Ash Smith
            Ahhhh I see now, sorry I was thinking of the kamishimo pictures I had seen. What is the garment called that is worn under the kamishimo? --Ash ... From: Ash
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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              Ahhhh I see now, sorry I was thinking of the kamishimo pictures I had seen.
              What is the garment called that is worn under the kamishimo?

              --Ash

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ash Smith <chronoknight@...>
              To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 2:16 AM
              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Authenticity question, and quicky-armor idea


              > Pardon my missunderstanding.. I though the hitatare was the "undershirt"
              > that went with the kataginu.
              >
              > Or is this a different "vest" alltogether than the kataginu?
              >
              > --Ash
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Anthony J. Bryant <ajbryant@...>
              > To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 6:56 PM
              > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Authenticity question, and quicky-armor idea
              >
              >
              > > Ash Smith wrote:
              > >
              > > > Does anyone know if anything was worn on top of the hitatare when it
              was
              > > > worn over armor?
              > > >
              > >
              > > Um... the hitatare is worn *under* armour. There are very few instances
              of
              > > wearing it over armour. When that's done (a late Sengoku thing) it's a
              > jaunty,
              > > martial sort of look, and is only done by those of very high rank. No
              one
              > goes
              > > to fight that way.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > Did they continue to put on the kataginu on top of that, or did they
              > just
              > > > stop at the hitatare?
              > >
              > > The kataginu is a formal court robe. It and hitatare and armour are all
              > > mutually exclusive.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > I am getting someone elses japanese armor in roughly July when he gets
              > his
              > > > new set, but for now I just need something that works...
              > > >
              > > > With that in mind, I have a gambison, and a quantity of plastic plates
              > cut
              > > > from a barrel (3"x2").
              > >
              > > You don't wear a gambeson with Japanese armour. No padding at all, in
              > fact.
              > > It's solid, you don't need to.
              > >
              > > Gambeson = European stuff
              > >
              > > >
              > > > I am thinking of making a hitatare out of trigger (it's like denim but
              > > > thinner if anyone isn't familiar with it). and then pop-riveting the
              > plastic
              > > > plates to the inside of it. And wearing this on to of my gambison, and
              > also
              > > > wearing the hakama on the outside.
              > > >
              > >
              > > Ummm... what *are* you doing? There are no plates in a gambeson, it's a
              > jacket.
              > >
              > > Have you seen: http://www.geocities.com/sengokudaimyo/katchu/0.Home.html
              > >
              > >
              > > Effingham
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... I know that. The point I m making is that you don t wear padding under Japanese armour, especially if it s made properly. ... Ouch. Cut to the quick....
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                Ash Smith wrote:

                > Well in my area they refer to a padding you wear under your other armor as a
                > gambison.
                >

                I know that. The point I'm making is that you don't wear padding under Japanese
                armour, especially if it's made properly.

                >
                > Right now my goal isn't as much authentic looking armor as it is something
                > that works and looks sorta of japanese.
                >

                Ouch. Cut to the quick....

                >
                > As for the wearing the articles of clothing over the armor I know it was
                > rare, but one of the sites I was reading through a few days ago mentinoed it
                > was done in battle as early as the 12th century, and contined even into the
                > 17th. In order to appear more militant/menacing.
                >

                Uh, could you cite where you were reading this? Unless it's Buddhist warrior
                monks wearing their cowls over their armour, someone somewhere has made a big
                mistake.

                Effingham
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... That s the hitoe; the mistake is understandable, given the similarity of names. ... The kataginu is an entirely different kind of garment, and is the
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                  Ash Smith wrote:

                  > Pardon my missunderstanding.. I though the hitatare was the "undershirt"
                  > that went with the kataginu.
                  >

                  That's the hitoe; the mistake is understandable, given the similarity of names.

                  >
                  > Or is this a different "vest" alltogether than the kataginu?

                  The kataginu is an entirely different kind of garment, and is the top-layer
                  (worn over a kosode or two and with hakama).

                  Have you seen our files section?

                  Effingham
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Kimono, or kosode. What kind of things have you been reading? Maybe we can direct you to something useful. Effingham
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                    Ash Smith wrote:

                    > Ahhhh I see now, sorry I was thinking of the kamishimo pictures I had seen.
                    > What is the garment called that is worn under the kamishimo?

                    Kimono, or kosode. <G>

                    What kind of things have you been reading? Maybe we can direct you to something
                    useful.


                    Effingham
                  • Ash Smith
                    A lot of the sites I ve found have been info for samurai LARPs. I read mutch of this before a friend finally pointed me to this group :) --Ash PS: Hope no one
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                      A lot of the sites I've found have been info for samurai LARPs.
                      I read mutch of this before a friend finally pointed me to this group :)

                      --Ash

                      PS: Hope no one minds the slew of messages, i'm kind of a scatter-brained
                      person so I sometimes end up sending emails like William Shatner sends
                      sentances when acting :P

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Anthony J. Bryant <ajbryant@...>
                      To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 3:33 AM
                      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Authenticity question, and quicky-armor idea


                      > Ash Smith wrote:
                      >
                      > > Ahhhh I see now, sorry I was thinking of the kamishimo pictures I had
                      seen.
                      > > What is the garment called that is worn under the kamishimo?
                      >
                      > Kimono, or kosode. <G>
                      >
                      > What kind of things have you been reading? Maybe we can direct you to
                      something
                      > useful.
                      >
                      >
                      > Effingham
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                    • Munson, Eric
                      ... Samurai LARPs???? Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. - mokurai (madly looking for
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                        > ----------
                        > From: Ash Smith
                        > A lot of the sites I've found have been info for samurai LARPs.
                        > I read mutch of this before a friend finally pointed me to this group :)
                        >
                        > --Ash
                        >
                        Samurai LARPs????

                        Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu
                        Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu.


                        - mokurai (madly looking for that exorcism scroll...)
                      • Ash Smith
                        Live Action RPGs --Ash ... From: Munson, Eric To: Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:26 AM Subject: RE:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                          Live Action RPGs

                          --Ash

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Munson, Eric <eric.munson@...>
                          To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:26 AM
                          Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Authenticity question, and quicky-armor idea


                          >
                          >
                          > > ----------
                          > > From: Ash Smith
                          > > A lot of the sites I've found have been info for samurai LARPs.
                          > > I read mutch of this before a friend finally pointed me to this group :)
                          > >
                          > > --Ash
                          > >
                          > Samurai LARPs????
                          >
                          > Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu.
                          Namu
                          > Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu.
                          >
                          >
                          > - mokurai (madly looking for that exorcism scroll...)
                          >
                          >
                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                        • Don Luby
                          ... I have at least one example of a somewhat padded fighting garment, though out of period: in _Japanese Armor: The Galeno Collection_, pp. 184 - 185, there
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                            On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                            > Ash Smith wrote:
                            >
                            >> Well in my area they refer to a padding you wear under your other
                            >> armor as a gambison.
                            >>
                            >
                            > I know that. The point I'm making is that you don't wear padding
                            > under Japanese armour, especially if it's made properly.

                            I have at least one example of a somewhat padded fighting garment,
                            though out of period: in _Japanese Armor: The Galeno Collection_,
                            pp. 184 - 185, there is shown an Edo shitagi, and the relevant part of
                            the accompanying text reads "This undershirt [...] is made from an
                            open weave cotton or hempcloth padded over a thin padding of floss
                            silk".
                            It's hard to tell exactly how much padding this entails, especially
                            given only 2 b&w photos, but it does strongly imply that there was
                            some sort of padded garment worn under armor worn by some bushi.

                            > Effingham


                            Koredono

                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
                            djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                            Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
                          • Chris Gregory
                            ... Mu. I shall only think of Mu. Mu is typing on the computer. Mu is getting a headache thinking of samurai LARPS. Mu really needs some aspirin. Richard
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                              >Samurai LARPs????
                              >
                              >Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu
                              >Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu.

                              Mu. I shall only think of Mu. Mu is typing on the computer. Mu is getting
                              a headache thinking of samurai LARPS. Mu really needs some aspirin.

                              Richard until further Mu.
                              --
                              "A monk in all seriousness asked Joshu 'Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?'
                              Joshu retorted 'Mu!'"
                              Koan 1, Mumonkan, Wu-men
                            • J. Badgley
                              ... Forgive me, Mokurai-bozu, but can one call upon the name of Amida for another? Alas, I would think it s too late for them, if they cannot find the path
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 4, 2001
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                                On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Munson, Eric wrote:

                                > Samurai LARPs????
                                >
                                > Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu
                                > Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu.

                                Forgive me, Mokurai-bozu, but can one call upon the name of Amida for
                                another? Alas, I would think it's too late for them, if they cannot find
                                the path themselves. Yet perhaps we can offer a silver spider's
                                thread--they did urge this wonderful individual to find us. <W>

                                -Ii
                              • Anthony J. Bryant
                                ... .... oh. You re friend has done a Good Thing. Here you will get real information. More than you ll probably want. ... I can relate. Effingham
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 5, 2001
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                                  Ash Smith wrote:

                                  > A lot of the sites I've found have been info for samurai LARPs.
                                  > I read mutch of this before a friend finally pointed me to this group :)
                                  >

                                  .... oh.

                                  You're friend has done a Good Thing.

                                  Here you will get real information. More than you'll probably want. <G>

                                  >
                                  > PS: Hope no one minds the slew of messages, i'm kind of a scatter-brained
                                  > person so I sometimes end up sending emails like William Shatner sends
                                  > sentances when acting :P

                                  I can relate. <G>


                                  Effingham
                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... Relate I can. Like Yoda I type. Oh, dear. Effingham
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 5, 2001
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                                    Chris Gregory wrote:

                                    > >Samurai LARPs????
                                    > >
                                    > >Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu
                                    > >Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu.
                                    >
                                    > Mu. I shall only think of Mu. Mu is typing on the computer. Mu is getting
                                    > a headache thinking of samurai LARPS. Mu really needs some aspirin.

                                    Relate I can.

                                    Like Yoda I type. Oh, dear.


                                    Effingham
                                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                                    ... LOL! You wakarimashita!!* Effingham *I get ya, bro. (more or less)
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 5, 2001
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                                      "Munson, Eric" wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Samurai LARPs????
                                      >
                                      > Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu. Namu
                                      > Amida Butsu. Namu Amida Butsu.
                                      >

                                      LOL!

                                      You wakarimashita!!*

                                      Effingham

                                      *I get ya, bro. (more or less)
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