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Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!

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  • Confucius
    ... Ah, okay. Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c. stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I ve overlooked? ... Wait--so, might I be
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
      Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!

      > 'Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started appearing in
      > Japan in "early Edo" -- which is typically defined as anywhere from 1610
      > to 1680. If it were before 1610, they usually say "Momoyama - early
      > Edo." And the shamisen wasn't an accepted "court instrument," either, no
      > more than the banjo is typically found in an orchestra. It was very much
      > a commoner instrument, and more or less took the place of the biwa as a
      > joururi instrument.

      Ah, okay.  Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c. stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I've overlooked?

      > The jabisen arrived in Okinawa or Japan sometime c. 1570, and was
      > modified between 1595 and 1625 into the shamisen, and then started to
      > gain popularity in Japan proper.

      Wait--so, might I be safe with the Chinese version, then (it arrived in Japan ca. 1570?)?  Or would nobody have had those in "Japan proper" until it became the shamisen?

      > Personally, I like shamisen, but they are quintessentially Edo
      > intstruments, and I'm just as annoyed by the thought of a shamisen at an
      > event as I am a modern-style guitar (which is also far too common in the
      > SCA).

      Yes, I know your pain.  Guitars still annoy me, but unfortunately I've been numbed to almost-indifference by people playing modern violin.  However, I still have a crusade against obviously post-period folk songs.  Where I am, nobody save myself performs actual medieval music...all folk songs, and 17th c. stuff at best.  I once heard some ladies perform a badly-pronounced Arabic "tribal folk song" in 5-part harmony...Oh, how I cringed.

      >
      >> (as a side note, Japanese folk singing is so hard to get right!  Has
      >> anybody had any luck?)

      > Some, yes. The tone waver problem is tough, as is singing like I have a
      > head cold. <G>

      Yes! :)  I have a lot of trouble getting Italian styles, too.  But you've had some luck?  Any tips?
      So, are you a musician?


      Health attend you,
      Nameless Person
      --------------------------------------------------
      Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
      menhs en cort que de belh saber
      de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
      hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
      e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                      --Guiraut Riquier, 1292


    • Stephen Higa
      Oh, how embarassing! My name said Confucius. I apologize; my roommate must have done this. Sorry for so many messages! Nameless Person ... Qu er non es
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
        Re: [SCA-JML] greetings! Oh, how embarassing!  My name said "Confucius."  I apologize; my roommate must have done this.

        Sorry for so many messages!

        Nameless Person
        --------------------------------------------------
        Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
        menhs en cort que de belh saber
        de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
        hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
        e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                        --Guiraut Riquier, 1292


        ----------
        From: "Confucius" <mitsuo@...>
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!
        Date: Tue, Feb 6, 2001, 7:58 PM



        > 'Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started appearing in
        > Japan in "early Edo" -- which is typically defined as anywhere from 1610
        > to 1680. If it were before 1610, they usually say "Momoyama - early
        > Edo." And the shamisen wasn't an accepted "court instrument," either, no
        > more than the banjo is typically found in an orchestra. It was very much
        > a commoner instrument, and more or less took the place of the biwa as a
        > joururi instrument.

        Ah, okay.  Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c. stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I've overlooked?

        > The jabisen arrived in Okinawa or Japan sometime c. 1570, and was
        > modified between 1595 and 1625 into the shamisen, and then started to
        > gain popularity in Japan proper.

        Wait--so, might I be safe with the Chinese version, then (it arrived in Japan ca. 1570?)?  Or would nobody have had those in "Japan proper" until it became the shamisen?

        > Personally, I like shamisen, but they are quintessentially Edo
        > intstruments, and I'm just as annoyed by the thought of a shamisen at an
        > event as I am a modern-style guitar (which is also far too common in the
        > SCA).

        Yes, I know your pain.  Guitars still annoy me, but unfortunately I've been numbed to almost-indifference by people playing modern violin.  However, I still have a crusade against obviously post-period folk songs.  Where I am, nobody save myself performs actual medieval music...all folk songs, and 17th c. stuff at best.  I once heard some ladies perform a badly-pronounced Arabic "tribal folk song" in 5-part harmony...Oh, how I cringed.

        >
        >> (as a side note, Japanese folk singing is so hard to get right!  Has
        >> anybody had any luck?)

        > Some, yes. The tone waver problem is tough, as is singing like I have a
        > head cold. <G>

        Yes! :)  I have a lot of trouble getting Italian styles, too.  But you've had some luck?  Any tips?
        So, are you a musician?


        Health attend you,
        Nameless Person
        --------------------------------------------------
        Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
        menhs en cort que de belh saber
        de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
        hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
        e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                        --Guiraut Riquier, 1292



        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

        www.  
        UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@...

      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Okay, a history junkie. Cool. ... Ah, Ly. Solveig got ya. Any particular reason you re going with TWO houmyou? ... It occurs to me that there have to
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
          Confucius wrote:

          >
          > > Welcome to the madhouse! What are you studying in terms of
          > history?
          >
          > Um, thanks... ;). I'm focusing on late 19th/early 20th c.
          > and Colonial America. Of course, then there's my SCA focus
          > on 12th c. Spain, which (with the help of this noble list :)
          > I hope to expand to include 16th c. Japan.
          >

          Okay, a history junkie. Cool.

          >
          > >> Or what about "Hadaka no Semi" (naked cicada) so it LOOKS
          > like
          > >> a regular name, but isn't...I think Semi would get a kick
          > out of that. :)
          >
          > > Well, it's different. <G>
          >
          > I have just been contacted by a wonderful lady in the aspect
          > of names. Apparently, as a Zen monk, I shall soon be
          > choosing two hoomyoo names. Any recommendations for
          > sources?
          >
          >
          Ah, Ly. Solveig got ya. <G> Any particular reason you're going with TWO
          houmyou?

          >
          > > Well, you don't have to be blind, but it helps. If you
          > want to buy a biwa, I
          > > hope you've got bucks. I've got a catalogue from a company
          > that sells 'em
          > > (among a pile of other things), and in 1988 it cost
          > 480,000 yen. Back then,
          > > that was about $5,000.
          >
          > Blast it, that's what I was afraid of. Oh well for that,
          > unless I miraculously stumble upon a really cheap one.
          >

          It occurs to me that there have to be cheaper models. Heck, what do
          student's learn on? The really cheap-cheap ones will probably start
          around $800 or so, I'd imagine. Twenty years ago, I bought a student's
          koto, and THEN I paid $500 for it. A big reason for the cost is the
          scarcity of the thing; very few people learn biwa. You'd probably have
          to go to Japan to do it, but if you did I could probably hook you up.

          Effingham
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Given any thought to the fue or shakuhachi? They re a heck of a lot more portable... Course, you can t sing *and* play... There s the koto, but you have
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
            Confucius wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            > > 'Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started
            > appearing in
            > > Japan in "early Edo" -- which is typically defined as
            > anywhere from 1610
            > > to 1680. If it were before 1610, they usually say
            > "Momoyama - early
            > > Edo." And the shamisen wasn't an accepted "court
            > instrument," either, no
            > > more than the banjo is typically found in an orchestra. It
            > was very much
            > > a commoner instrument, and more or less took the place of
            > the biwa as a
            > > joururi instrument.
            >
            > Ah, okay. Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c.
            > stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I've
            > overlooked?
            >

            Given any thought to the fue or shakuhachi? They're a heck of a lot more
            portable... 'Course, you can't sing *and* play... There's the koto, but
            you have more issues to deal with in terms of lugging the thing around
            and tuning it each time you play. That's primarily why I gave up the
            koto, although there are times I wish I'd've stayed with it.

            >
            > > The jabisen arrived in Okinawa or Japan sometime c. 1570,
            > and was
            > > modified between 1595 and 1625 into the shamisen, and then
            > started to
            > > gain popularity in Japan proper.
            >
            > Wait--so, might I be safe with the Chinese version, then (it
            > arrived in Japan ca. 1570?)? Or would nobody have had those
            > in "Japan proper" until it became the shamisen?
            >

            If you can find a jabisen.

            If you want to do shamisen, I think you have to give up the idea of
            being a monk. Shamisen didn't really make it early on as a monastic
            instrument; the tradition of the biwa was far too strong. If you *must*
            get a shamisen, develop an entertainer persona, as these would have been
            the folks popularizing it.

            >
            > > Personally, I like shamisen, but they are quintessentially
            > Edo
            > > intstruments, and I'm just as annoyed by the thought of a
            > shamisen at an
            > > event as I am a modern-style guitar (which is also far too
            > common in the
            > > SCA).
            >
            > Yes, I know your pain. Guitars still annoy me, but
            > unfortunately I've been numbed to almost-indifference by
            > people playing modern violin. However, I still have a
            > crusade against obviously post-period folk songs. Where I
            > am, nobody save myself performs actual medieval music...all
            > folk songs, and 17th c. stuff at best. I once heard some
            > ladies perform a badly-pronounced Arabic "tribal folk song"
            > in 5-part harmony...Oh, how I cringed.
            >
            > >
            > >> (as a side note, Japanese folk singing is so hard to get
            > right! Has
            > >> anybody had any luck?)
            >
            > > Some, yes. The tone waver problem is tough, as is singing
            > like I have a
            > > head cold. <G>
            >
            > Yes! :) I have a lot of trouble getting Italian styles,
            > too. But you've had some luck? Any tips?
            > So, are you a musician?
            >

            No, I just spent a lot of time in bars singing enka. And I have some
            friends (well, had... I've not been in contact for a while...sigh) who
            are Noh performers, and who showed me lots of cool tricks. Don't ask how
            long it took me to learn just to *walk* for Noh. And it's been like 10
            years, so of course I've forgotten it all and wasted yet another cool
            thing I once knew how to do. That sux, b'lieve me.

            No, I'm not a musician. Not a singer, either, as you'd know if you'd
            ever been in Usami when I had the mike. <G>

            Effingham
          • heathergray@ivillage.com
            Found some of the instruments you ve been speaking about at Lark in the Morning ( http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa n )
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
              Found some of the instruments you've been speaking about at Lark in
              the Morning (
              http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa
              n )

              Full sized 6' traditional Koto $850.00
              Portable Mini 34" Koto $875.00
              Full sized instrument of traditional koto wood with 13 Tetlon
              strings. $2000.00

              (Bamboo, beginner quality)
              Basic Shakuhachi SHK023 $65.00
              Good Student Shakuhachi SHK001 $155.00

              (Wood, better quality, but not traditional bamboo)
              $320 and up

              Ioriya Takara



              >
              > Given any thought to the fue or shakuhachi? They're a heck of a lot
              more
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... I love those people! Note that though they don t have a biwa, they *do* have a pipa, which is the Chinese form of a biwa, and the modern sanxian (a cousin
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
                heathergray@... wrote:

                > Found some of the instruments you've been speaking about at Lark in
                > the Morning (
                > http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa
                > n )
                >
                >

                I love those people!


                Note that though they don't have a biwa, they *do* have a pipa, which is
                the Chinese form of a biwa, and the modern sanxian (a cousin of the
                shamisen).

                http://www.larkinam.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/LarkNet/China

                Student model pipa is $299! Gotta love Chinese products. <G>

                Effingham
              • Stephen Higa
                ... What do they look like? I have seen the sanxian, and the vietnamese one, but... ... That sounds good, but I really would like a monk persona. However,
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
                  Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!

                  > If you can find a jabisen.

                  What do they look like?  I have seen the sanxian, and the vietnamese one, but...

                  > If you want to do shamisen, I think you have to give up the idea of
                  > being a monk. Shamisen didn't really make it early on as a monastic
                  > instrument; the tradition of the biwa was far too strong. If you *must*
                  > get a shamisen, develop an entertainer persona, as these would have been
                  > the folks popularizing it.

                  That sounds good, but I really would like a monk persona.  However, wouldn't it be interesting to be a No female-impersonator?  Or a male prostitute?  I have a (female) friend who's a 16th c. Florentine courtesan... ;)

                  > No, I just spent a lot of time in bars singing enka. And I have some
                  > friends (well, had... I've not been in contact for a while...sigh) who
                  > are Noh performers, and who showed me lots of cool tricks. Don't ask how
                  > long it took me to learn just to *walk* for Noh. And it's been like 10
                  > years, so of course I've forgotten it all and wasted yet another cool
                  > thing I once knew how to do. That sux, b'lieve me.

                  OH no!  That does sound really cool!  It would be neat to have a No actor persona... :)

                  > No, I'm not a musician. Not a singer, either, as you'd know if you'd
                  > ever been in Usami when I had the mike. <G>

                  he he :)

                  Health attend you,
                  Nameless Person
                  --------------------------------------------------
                  Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
                  menhs en cort que de belh saber
                  de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
                  hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
                  e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                                  --Guiraut Riquier, 1292

                • Stephen Higa
                  Ah yes, Lark in the Morning! So--what do you think about the pipa or sanxian for a substitute? Nameless Person ... Qu er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers menhs
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
                    Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning Ah yes, Lark in the Morning!  So--what do you think about the pipa or sanxian for a substitute?

                    Nameless Person
                    --------------------------------------------------
                    Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
                    menhs en cort que de belh saber
                    de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
                    hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
                    e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                                    --Guiraut Riquier, 1292


                    ----------
                    From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning
                    Date: Wed, Feb 7, 2001, 11:38 AM


                    heathergray@... wrote:

                    > Found some of the instruments you've been speaking about at Lark in
                    > the Morning (
                    > http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa
                    > n )
                    >
                    >

                    I love those people!


                    Note that though they don't have a biwa, they *do* have a pipa, which is
                    the Chinese form of a biwa, and the modern sanxian (a cousin of the
                    shamisen).

                    http://www.larkinam.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/LarkNet/China

                    Student model pipa is $299! Gotta love Chinese products. <G>

                    Effingham





                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor www. .com
                    UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@...

                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... I d go with the pipa. Effingham
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
                      Stephen Higa wrote:

                      > Ah yes, Lark in the Morning! So--what do you think about the pipa or
                      > sanxian for a substitute?
                      >

                      I'd go with the pipa.


                      Effingham
                    • schneider
                      How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural stuff? I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70 some and
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
                        How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural stuff?
                        I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70 some
                        and sounds nice
                        Pocy
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                        To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:33 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning


                        > Stephen Higa wrote:
                        >
                        > > Ah yes, Lark in the Morning! So--what do you think about the pipa or
                        > > sanxian for a substitute?
                        > >
                        >
                        > I'd go with the pipa.
                        >
                        >
                        > Effingham
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@...
                        >
                        >
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... The pipa is really the only one of the stringed instruments with a direct analogue to something in Period Japan. Regardless, there s the problem of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
                          schneider wrote:

                          > How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural stuff?
                          > I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70 some
                          > and sounds nice

                          The pipa is really the only one of the stringed instruments with a direct
                          analogue to something in Period Japan.

                          Regardless, there's the problem of learning to play the bloody thing....


                          Effingham
                        • schneider
                          What about the Erhu?I kinda got a liknig for it Pocy ... From: Anthony J. Bryant To: Sent: Wednesday,
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
                            What about the Erhu?I kinda got a liknig for it
                            Pocy
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                            To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 9:13 PM
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning


                            > schneider wrote:
                            >
                            > > How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural
                            stuff?
                            > > I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70
                            some
                            > > and sounds nice
                            >
                            > The pipa is really the only one of the stringed instruments with a direct
                            > analogue to something in Period Japan.
                            >
                            > Regardless, there's the problem of learning to play the bloody thing....
                            >
                            >
                            > Effingham
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@...
                            >
                            >
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