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Heian make-up

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  • Andrea Gideon
    While searching on the web, I ve run across a handful of pictures of women dressed in Heian garb, wearing geisha make-up. Do we have evidence that the style
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 6, 2001
      While searching on the web, I 've run across a handful of pictures of
      women dressed in Heian garb, wearing geisha make-up. Do we have
      evidence that the style of make-up that geisha wear today is how Heian
      ladies wear their make-up?

      Nadeshiko
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... How are you defining geisha make-up? White-face, or the whole nine yards? Heian style was definitely not Edo geisha style; white-face, yes, but the
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 6, 2001
        Andrea Gideon wrote:

        > While searching on the web, I 've run across a handful of pictures of
        > women dressed in Heian garb, wearing geisha make-up. Do we have
        > evidence that the style of make-up that geisha wear today is how Heian
        > ladies wear their make-up?

        How are you defining geisha make-up? White-face, or the whole nine yards?

        Heian style was definitely not Edo geisha style; white-face, yes, but the
        eyebrows were plucked and painted on high on the forehead (giving one the
        perpetual "who, me?" look).

        Interesting bit of trivia: The quality whitening of Heian ladies included
        as a key ingredient nightingale poop. There are stores in Kyoto where this
        can still be purchased. Before you go "ew, gross," folks, think of how many
        Western cosmetics have whale puke as a primary ingredient.


        Effingham
      • Andrea Gideon
        ... The one in particular,a women s site linked from an SCA household site, had the full modern giesha, with tiny red lips and red eyeshadow over heavy black
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 6, 2001
          >
          >
          > How are you defining geisha make-up? White-face, or the whole nine yards?
          >
          > Heian style was definitely not Edo geisha style; white-face, yes, but the
          > eyebrows were plucked and painted on high on the forehead (giving one the
          > perpetual "who, me?" look).
          >
          > Effingham

          The one in particular,a women's site linked from an SCA household site, had
          the full modern giesha, with tiny red lips and red eyeshadow over heavy black
          eyeliner.

          Nadeshiko
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... The little lips bit is okay; the rest of it is... well, creative. Effingham
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 6, 2001
            Andrea Gideon wrote:

            > >
            > >
            > > How are you defining geisha make-up? White-face, or the whole nine yards?
            > >
            > > Heian style was definitely not Edo geisha style; white-face, yes, but the
            > > eyebrows were plucked and painted on high on the forehead (giving one the
            > > perpetual "who, me?" look).
            > >
            > > Effingham
            >
            > The one in particular,a women's site linked from an SCA household site, had
            > the full modern giesha, with tiny red lips and red eyeshadow over heavy black
            > eyeliner.

            The little lips bit is okay; the rest of it is... well, creative.


            Effingham
          • historian@reconstructinghistory.com
            ... site, had ... heavy black ... What!?!?!?! I go off list for a few days and this is what happens? Oh my... I know this has already been covered and put to
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 7, 2001
              > > The one in particular,a women's site linked from an SCA household
              site, had
              > > the full modern giesha, with tiny red lips and red eyeshadow over
              heavy black
              > > eyeliner.
              >
              > The little lips bit is okay; the rest of it is... well, creative.

              What!?!?!?! I go off list for a few days and this is what happens?
              Oh my...

              I know this has already been covered and put to rest. Thank you
              Nadeshiko-hime for asking the question in the first place. Good eyes!

              Since I first started doing Japanese re-enactment, I have been
              flabbergasted at the amount of modern and pre-modern (i.e. 19th
              century) garb and effects that get paraded around the SCA
              as "Japanese". Well, sure these things are Japanese. But they are
              about as "Period" as jeans and a T-shirt.

              Just because Japan has many traditions in their culture does not mean
              all (or even any) of those traditions wer born in antiquity. Modern
              hakama are not period hakama. Modern kimono are not period kosode.
              And wearing one's hair up with "chopsticks" came around in the 18th
              century.

              If you were a Western persona, you wouldn't walk into an event in a
              business suit, would you?

              The fact that this information on "Japanese persona makeup" is out
              there on an SCA-linked website makes my skin crawl. Now wonder
              the "main stream" SCA often thinks we're just a bunch of karate-movie
              and anime-watching farbs...

              Fujiwara no Aoi
              disgusted
            • Joshua Badgley
              ... But I like watching karate-movies and anime! ;) ... Actually, I completely agree. My question, though, is how to tell people in a polite manner. I can t
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 7, 2001
                On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 historian@... wrote:

                > The fact that this information on "Japanese persona makeup" is out
                > there on an SCA-linked website makes my skin crawl. Now wonder
                > the "main stream" SCA often thinks we're just a bunch of karate-movie
                > and anime-watching farbs...

                But I like watching karate-movies and anime! ;)

                > Fujiwara no Aoi
                > disgusted

                Actually, I completely agree. My question, though, is how to tell people
                in a polite manner. I can't tell you how many well-intentioned people
                have come up to me to show me how it's done and thrown the infamous
                'Folkwear' pattern in my face. I need to find some polite way of telling
                them that they are mistaken in a way that won't have them go 'oh, he's
                just a period-n@$!*, those people are just there to ruin our fun.' Any
                tips would be helpful.

                Of course, we could also fight fire with fire and start wearing 18th and
                19th century European clothes to the Western events. Hey, it's European,
                isn't it?


                -Ii Saburou

                *PSRant: Personally, I find any mention of a 'period-nazi' an offensive
                term anyway. For one, it draws its power and image from a horrendous act
                and seems to trivialize the Nazi attrocities by using them as almost a
                joke. Second of all, we don't need words that create more stereotypes for
                people to use as labels and excuses. If someone is rude, we have a word
                for that; we call them a rude person.
              • historian@reconstructinghistory.com
                ... Well, yeah, me too, Ii-dono. But a place for everything... ... people ... people ... telling ... he s ... Any ... I have this problem all the time. I
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 8, 2001
                  > But I like watching karate-movies and anime! ;)

                  Well, yeah, me too, Ii-dono. But a place for everything...

                  > Actually, I completely agree. My question, though, is how to tell
                  people
                  > in a polite manner. I can't tell you how many well-intentioned
                  people
                  > have come up to me to show me how it's done and thrown the infamous
                  > 'Folkwear' pattern in my face. I need to find some polite way of
                  telling
                  > them that they are mistaken in a way that won't have them go 'oh,
                  he's
                  > just a period-n@$!*, those people are just there to ruin our fun.'
                  Any
                  > tips would be helpful.

                  I have this problem all the time. I mean, what do you say to someone
                  who is wearing a modern kimono and obi and chopsticks in her
                  hair? "You stupid woman! Open a book!" just doesn't have the
                  desired effect... ;)

                  Once I was struggling to get through a narrow path between Western
                  tables and a well-intentioned lady said to me, "You should kick your
                  kimono out of your way, my dear. Have you never worn proper
                  kimono?" I can only hope that my whiteface covered the fact that I
                  was red with anger! But I recognized that she was well-intentioned
                  and I ingored her ignorance.

                  When I encounter people who are uninformed or misinformed, the first
                  thing I evaluate is "are they worth saving?" Some people just want
                  to spout their "knowledge" and it really doesn't matter to them if
                  they're right or wrong. The answer to this type is, "Thank you,
                  milord. I will keep that in mind."

                  But sometimes you will meet someone who is asking the right questions
                  or strikes you as having an open mind. With that person, you
                  say, "You know, the Folkwear patterns are actually a modern design.
                  Let me explain to you the differences between modern and period
                  Japanese clothing."

                  Some people want to argue (that's what I start quoting, "Well Baron
                  Master Edward of Effingham says..."). Some people want to learn. I
                  think our job is to educate the ones who want to learn. The people
                  who want to be jerks... let 'em.

                  > Of course, we could also fight fire with fire and start wearing
                  18th and
                  > 19th century European clothes to the Western events. Hey, it's
                  European,
                  > isn't it?

                  As much as I'd love the reactions we'd get <GRIN>, it would only
                  serve one purpose -- to prove to people that we are not interested in
                  being SCA period-accurate at all, therefore reinforcing their bias
                  against us. Great visual though! =)

                  > *PSRant: Personally, I find any mention of a 'period-nazi' an
                  offensive
                  > term anyway. For one, it draws its power and image from a
                  horrendous act
                  > and seems to trivialize the Nazi attrocities by using them as
                  almost a
                  > joke. Second of all, we don't need words that create more
                  stereotypes for
                  > people to use as labels and excuses. If someone is rude, we have a
                  word
                  > for that; we call them a rude person.

                  I concurr. I offended you, Ii-dono, I apologize. I use the word to
                  indicate what people sometimes say about me (mistakenly, of course).
                  Personally, I consider myself an "authenticist". I generally don't
                  care if anyone else wants to be authentic or not. But I encourage
                  authenticity wherever I go and I reward it whenever I see it. And if
                  people are giving out bad information, I do my best to stop them and
                  give out good information instead. But frankly, if everyone was
                  running around in period-perfect Japanese, who would even know who I
                  was? =)

                  Kass
                  aka Fujiwara no Aoi
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Mistress Nicolaa uses the term Garb Snark for such people. I like that... Effingham
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 9, 2001
                    Joshua Badgley wrote:

                    > *PSRant: Personally, I find any mention of a 'period-nazi' an offensive
                    > term anyway. For one, it draws its power and image from a horrendous act
                    > and seems to trivialize the Nazi attrocities by using them as almost a
                    > joke. Second of all, we don't need words that create more stereotypes for
                    > people to use as labels and excuses. If someone is rude, we have a word
                    > for that; we call them a rude person.

                    Mistress Nicolaa uses the term "Garb Snark" for such people. I like that...


                    Effingham
                  • Craig Gehlert III
                    ... yes but wouldn t it be just as fare to see that that term might offend the sharks? Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 11, 2001


                      >Mistress Nicolaa uses the term "Garb Snark" for such people. I like that...
                      >
                      yes but wouldn't it be just as fare to see that that term might offend the sharks?


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