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Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Welcome to the madhouse! What are you studying in terms of history? ... Well, it s different. ... Well, you don t have to be blind, but it helps. If
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
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      Stephen Higa wrote:

      > Greetings! My name is Stephen Higa, and I'm a second-year student in
      > history at UC Berkeley.

      Welcome to the madhouse! What are you studying in terms of history?

      >
      > In the SCA, my main persona is Mosse Mantega (Moshe ibn Yishma'el), a 12th
      > c. Jewish mystical poet from Spain. However, I'm working on building a
      > late-Muromachi period Japanese persona; so far, his adopted "pen-name" is
      > Semi ("cicada," in reference to Emperor Temmu in the Kojiki who sheds his
      > worldly adornments; except Semi does it for spiritual reasons). He doesn't
      > ever use his birth name. He was born into a noble family, but "cicada-like
      > he shed his wrappings" (very early on) and became a poet-monk wandering from
      > monastery to monastery. Therefore, I'm very interested in the discussion on
      > tanka... :) Or what about "Hadaka no Semi" (naked cicada) so it LOOKS like
      > a regular name, but isn't...I think Semi would get a kick out of that. :)

      Well, it's different. <G>

      >
      > So far, I've spent much of my SCA endeavors re-creating medieval musics
      > (especially Iberian--Jewish, Christian, and Muslim) and am eager to delve
      > into early Japanese music. I would like to acquire a biwa, but that of
      > course would mean that I would most likely be blind...Has anybody ever tried
      > a blind persona before? ;) And then it would be hard to write poetry...

      Well, you don't have to be blind, but it helps. If you want to buy a biwa, I
      hope you've got bucks. I've got a catalogue from a company that sells 'em
      (among a pile of other things), and in 1988 it cost 480,000 yen. Back then,
      that was about $5,000.

      Effingham
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Joruri. ... Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started appearing in Japan in early Edo -- which is typically defined as anywhere from 1610
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
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        Stephen Higa wrote:

        >
        >
        > Well, not a pre-requisite per se, it's just that I keep reading that
        > the tradition for non-gagaku biwa-playing (well, at least the
        > narrative biwa-playing) was for people who happened to be blind. Now,
        > I'm not sure when this tradition changed, but I would LOVE not to be
        > blind. So if anyone knows of a folk tradition of biwa playing in the
        > 16th c. where a travelling monk could sing informally to biwa
        > accompaniment, I would love to know! :)
        >

        Joruri.

        >
        > If not biwa, I would like to play sanshin/shamisen (closer to my
        > Okinawan roots ;), but apparently they only became widespread on
        > "mainland" Japan in the 17th c. Well, at least as an accepted "court
        > instrument." Might that mean that the common Japanese people were
        > playing them a little while before?
        >

        'Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started appearing in
        Japan in "early Edo" -- which is typically defined as anywhere from 1610
        to 1680. If it were before 1610, they usually say "Momoyama - early
        Edo." And the shamisen wasn't an accepted "court instrument," either, no
        more than the banjo is typically found in an orchestra. It was very much
        a commoner instrument, and more or less took the place of the biwa as a
        joururi instrument.

        The jabisen arrived in Okinawa or Japan sometime c. 1570, and was
        modified between 1595 and 1625 into the shamisen, and then started to
        gain popularity in Japan proper.

        Personally, I like shamisen, but they are quintessentially Edo
        intstruments, and I'm just as annoyed by the thought of a shamisen at an
        event as I am a modern-style guitar (which is also far too common in the
        SCA).

        >
        > (as a side note, Japanese folk singing is so hard to get right! Has
        > anybody had any luck?)

        Some, yes. The tone waver problem is tough, as is singing like I have a
        head cold. <G>


        Effingham
      • Confucius
        ... Um, thanks... ;). I m focusing on late 19th/early 20th c. and Colonial America. Of course, then there s my SCA focus on 12th c. Spain, which (with the
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
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          Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!

          > Welcome to the madhouse! What are you studying in terms of history?

          Um, thanks... ;).  I'm focusing on late 19th/early 20th c. and Colonial America.  Of course, then there's my SCA focus on 12th c. Spain, which (with the help of this noble list :) I hope to expand to include 16th c. Japan.

          >> Or what about "Hadaka no Semi" (naked cicada) so it LOOKS like
          >> a regular name, but isn't...I think Semi would get a kick out of that. :)

          > Well, it's different. <G>

          I have just been contacted by a wonderful lady in the aspect of names.  Apparently, as a Zen monk, I shall soon be choosing two hoomyoo names.  Any recommendations for sources?

          > Well, you don't have to be blind, but it helps. If you want to buy a biwa, I
          > hope you've got bucks. I've got a catalogue from a company that sells 'em
          > (among a pile of other things), and in 1988 it cost 480,000 yen. Back then,
          > that was about $5,000.

          Blast it, that's what I was afraid of.  Oh well for that, unless I miraculously stumble upon a really cheap one.

          Health attend you,
          Nameless Person
          --------------------------------------------------
          Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
          menhs en cort que de belh saber
          de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
          hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
          e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                          --Guiraut Riquier, 1292

        • Confucius
          ... Ah, okay. Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c. stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I ve overlooked? ... Wait--so, might I be
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
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            Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!

            > 'Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started appearing in
            > Japan in "early Edo" -- which is typically defined as anywhere from 1610
            > to 1680. If it were before 1610, they usually say "Momoyama - early
            > Edo." And the shamisen wasn't an accepted "court instrument," either, no
            > more than the banjo is typically found in an orchestra. It was very much
            > a commoner instrument, and more or less took the place of the biwa as a
            > joururi instrument.

            Ah, okay.  Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c. stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I've overlooked?

            > The jabisen arrived in Okinawa or Japan sometime c. 1570, and was
            > modified between 1595 and 1625 into the shamisen, and then started to
            > gain popularity in Japan proper.

            Wait--so, might I be safe with the Chinese version, then (it arrived in Japan ca. 1570?)?  Or would nobody have had those in "Japan proper" until it became the shamisen?

            > Personally, I like shamisen, but they are quintessentially Edo
            > intstruments, and I'm just as annoyed by the thought of a shamisen at an
            > event as I am a modern-style guitar (which is also far too common in the
            > SCA).

            Yes, I know your pain.  Guitars still annoy me, but unfortunately I've been numbed to almost-indifference by people playing modern violin.  However, I still have a crusade against obviously post-period folk songs.  Where I am, nobody save myself performs actual medieval music...all folk songs, and 17th c. stuff at best.  I once heard some ladies perform a badly-pronounced Arabic "tribal folk song" in 5-part harmony...Oh, how I cringed.

            >
            >> (as a side note, Japanese folk singing is so hard to get right!  Has
            >> anybody had any luck?)

            > Some, yes. The tone waver problem is tough, as is singing like I have a
            > head cold. <G>

            Yes! :)  I have a lot of trouble getting Italian styles, too.  But you've had some luck?  Any tips?
            So, are you a musician?


            Health attend you,
            Nameless Person
            --------------------------------------------------
            Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
            menhs en cort que de belh saber
            de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
            hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
            e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                            --Guiraut Riquier, 1292


          • Stephen Higa
            Oh, how embarassing! My name said Confucius. I apologize; my roommate must have done this. Sorry for so many messages! Nameless Person ... Qu er non es
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
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              Re: [SCA-JML] greetings! Oh, how embarassing!  My name said "Confucius."  I apologize; my roommate must have done this.

              Sorry for so many messages!

              Nameless Person
              --------------------------------------------------
              Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
              menhs en cort que de belh saber
              de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
              hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
              e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                              --Guiraut Riquier, 1292


              ----------
              From: "Confucius" <mitsuo@...>
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!
              Date: Tue, Feb 6, 2001, 7:58 PM



              > 'Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started appearing in
              > Japan in "early Edo" -- which is typically defined as anywhere from 1610
              > to 1680. If it were before 1610, they usually say "Momoyama - early
              > Edo." And the shamisen wasn't an accepted "court instrument," either, no
              > more than the banjo is typically found in an orchestra. It was very much
              > a commoner instrument, and more or less took the place of the biwa as a
              > joururi instrument.

              Ah, okay.  Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c. stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I've overlooked?

              > The jabisen arrived in Okinawa or Japan sometime c. 1570, and was
              > modified between 1595 and 1625 into the shamisen, and then started to
              > gain popularity in Japan proper.

              Wait--so, might I be safe with the Chinese version, then (it arrived in Japan ca. 1570?)?  Or would nobody have had those in "Japan proper" until it became the shamisen?

              > Personally, I like shamisen, but they are quintessentially Edo
              > intstruments, and I'm just as annoyed by the thought of a shamisen at an
              > event as I am a modern-style guitar (which is also far too common in the
              > SCA).

              Yes, I know your pain.  Guitars still annoy me, but unfortunately I've been numbed to almost-indifference by people playing modern violin.  However, I still have a crusade against obviously post-period folk songs.  Where I am, nobody save myself performs actual medieval music...all folk songs, and 17th c. stuff at best.  I once heard some ladies perform a badly-pronounced Arabic "tribal folk song" in 5-part harmony...Oh, how I cringed.

              >
              >> (as a side note, Japanese folk singing is so hard to get right!  Has
              >> anybody had any luck?)

              > Some, yes. The tone waver problem is tough, as is singing like I have a
              > head cold. <G>

              Yes! :)  I have a lot of trouble getting Italian styles, too.  But you've had some luck?  Any tips?
              So, are you a musician?


              Health attend you,
              Nameless Person
              --------------------------------------------------
              Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
              menhs en cort que de belh saber
              de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
              hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
              e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                              --Guiraut Riquier, 1292



              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

              www.  
              UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@...

            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Okay, a history junkie. Cool. ... Ah, Ly. Solveig got ya. Any particular reason you re going with TWO houmyou? ... It occurs to me that there have to
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
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                Confucius wrote:

                >
                > > Welcome to the madhouse! What are you studying in terms of
                > history?
                >
                > Um, thanks... ;). I'm focusing on late 19th/early 20th c.
                > and Colonial America. Of course, then there's my SCA focus
                > on 12th c. Spain, which (with the help of this noble list :)
                > I hope to expand to include 16th c. Japan.
                >

                Okay, a history junkie. Cool.

                >
                > >> Or what about "Hadaka no Semi" (naked cicada) so it LOOKS
                > like
                > >> a regular name, but isn't...I think Semi would get a kick
                > out of that. :)
                >
                > > Well, it's different. <G>
                >
                > I have just been contacted by a wonderful lady in the aspect
                > of names. Apparently, as a Zen monk, I shall soon be
                > choosing two hoomyoo names. Any recommendations for
                > sources?
                >
                >
                Ah, Ly. Solveig got ya. <G> Any particular reason you're going with TWO
                houmyou?

                >
                > > Well, you don't have to be blind, but it helps. If you
                > want to buy a biwa, I
                > > hope you've got bucks. I've got a catalogue from a company
                > that sells 'em
                > > (among a pile of other things), and in 1988 it cost
                > 480,000 yen. Back then,
                > > that was about $5,000.
                >
                > Blast it, that's what I was afraid of. Oh well for that,
                > unless I miraculously stumble upon a really cheap one.
                >

                It occurs to me that there have to be cheaper models. Heck, what do
                student's learn on? The really cheap-cheap ones will probably start
                around $800 or so, I'd imagine. Twenty years ago, I bought a student's
                koto, and THEN I paid $500 for it. A big reason for the cost is the
                scarcity of the thing; very few people learn biwa. You'd probably have
                to go to Japan to do it, but if you did I could probably hook you up.

                Effingham
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Given any thought to the fue or shakuhachi? They re a heck of a lot more portable... Course, you can t sing *and* play... There s the koto, but you have
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 6, 2001
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                  Confucius wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > 'Fraid not. My sources indicate that the shamisen started
                  > appearing in
                  > > Japan in "early Edo" -- which is typically defined as
                  > anywhere from 1610
                  > > to 1680. If it were before 1610, they usually say
                  > "Momoyama - early
                  > > Edo." And the shamisen wasn't an accepted "court
                  > instrument," either, no
                  > > more than the banjo is typically found in an orchestra. It
                  > was very much
                  > > a commoner instrument, and more or less took the place of
                  > the biwa as a
                  > > joururi instrument.
                  >
                  > Ah, okay. Well, any other possibilities for a 16th c.
                  > stringed instrument (not as expensive as the biwa) that I've
                  > overlooked?
                  >

                  Given any thought to the fue or shakuhachi? They're a heck of a lot more
                  portable... 'Course, you can't sing *and* play... There's the koto, but
                  you have more issues to deal with in terms of lugging the thing around
                  and tuning it each time you play. That's primarily why I gave up the
                  koto, although there are times I wish I'd've stayed with it.

                  >
                  > > The jabisen arrived in Okinawa or Japan sometime c. 1570,
                  > and was
                  > > modified between 1595 and 1625 into the shamisen, and then
                  > started to
                  > > gain popularity in Japan proper.
                  >
                  > Wait--so, might I be safe with the Chinese version, then (it
                  > arrived in Japan ca. 1570?)? Or would nobody have had those
                  > in "Japan proper" until it became the shamisen?
                  >

                  If you can find a jabisen.

                  If you want to do shamisen, I think you have to give up the idea of
                  being a monk. Shamisen didn't really make it early on as a monastic
                  instrument; the tradition of the biwa was far too strong. If you *must*
                  get a shamisen, develop an entertainer persona, as these would have been
                  the folks popularizing it.

                  >
                  > > Personally, I like shamisen, but they are quintessentially
                  > Edo
                  > > intstruments, and I'm just as annoyed by the thought of a
                  > shamisen at an
                  > > event as I am a modern-style guitar (which is also far too
                  > common in the
                  > > SCA).
                  >
                  > Yes, I know your pain. Guitars still annoy me, but
                  > unfortunately I've been numbed to almost-indifference by
                  > people playing modern violin. However, I still have a
                  > crusade against obviously post-period folk songs. Where I
                  > am, nobody save myself performs actual medieval music...all
                  > folk songs, and 17th c. stuff at best. I once heard some
                  > ladies perform a badly-pronounced Arabic "tribal folk song"
                  > in 5-part harmony...Oh, how I cringed.
                  >
                  > >
                  > >> (as a side note, Japanese folk singing is so hard to get
                  > right! Has
                  > >> anybody had any luck?)
                  >
                  > > Some, yes. The tone waver problem is tough, as is singing
                  > like I have a
                  > > head cold. <G>
                  >
                  > Yes! :) I have a lot of trouble getting Italian styles,
                  > too. But you've had some luck? Any tips?
                  > So, are you a musician?
                  >

                  No, I just spent a lot of time in bars singing enka. And I have some
                  friends (well, had... I've not been in contact for a while...sigh) who
                  are Noh performers, and who showed me lots of cool tricks. Don't ask how
                  long it took me to learn just to *walk* for Noh. And it's been like 10
                  years, so of course I've forgotten it all and wasted yet another cool
                  thing I once knew how to do. That sux, b'lieve me.

                  No, I'm not a musician. Not a singer, either, as you'd know if you'd
                  ever been in Usami when I had the mike. <G>

                  Effingham
                • heathergray@ivillage.com
                  Found some of the instruments you ve been speaking about at Lark in the Morning ( http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa n )
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                    Found some of the instruments you've been speaking about at Lark in
                    the Morning (
                    http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa
                    n )

                    Full sized 6' traditional Koto $850.00
                    Portable Mini 34" Koto $875.00
                    Full sized instrument of traditional koto wood with 13 Tetlon
                    strings. $2000.00

                    (Bamboo, beginner quality)
                    Basic Shakuhachi SHK023 $65.00
                    Good Student Shakuhachi SHK001 $155.00

                    (Wood, better quality, but not traditional bamboo)
                    $320 and up

                    Ioriya Takara



                    >
                    > Given any thought to the fue or shakuhachi? They're a heck of a lot
                    more
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... I love those people! Note that though they don t have a biwa, they *do* have a pipa, which is the Chinese form of a biwa, and the modern sanxian (a cousin
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                      heathergray@... wrote:

                      > Found some of the instruments you've been speaking about at Lark in
                      > the Morning (
                      > http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa
                      > n )
                      >
                      >

                      I love those people!


                      Note that though they don't have a biwa, they *do* have a pipa, which is
                      the Chinese form of a biwa, and the modern sanxian (a cousin of the
                      shamisen).

                      http://www.larkinam.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/LarkNet/China

                      Student model pipa is $299! Gotta love Chinese products. <G>

                      Effingham
                    • Stephen Higa
                      ... What do they look like? I have seen the sanxian, and the vietnamese one, but... ... That sounds good, but I really would like a monk persona. However,
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                        Re: [SCA-JML] greetings!

                        > If you can find a jabisen.

                        What do they look like?  I have seen the sanxian, and the vietnamese one, but...

                        > If you want to do shamisen, I think you have to give up the idea of
                        > being a monk. Shamisen didn't really make it early on as a monastic
                        > instrument; the tradition of the biwa was far too strong. If you *must*
                        > get a shamisen, develop an entertainer persona, as these would have been
                        > the folks popularizing it.

                        That sounds good, but I really would like a monk persona.  However, wouldn't it be interesting to be a No female-impersonator?  Or a male prostitute?  I have a (female) friend who's a 16th c. Florentine courtesan... ;)

                        > No, I just spent a lot of time in bars singing enka. And I have some
                        > friends (well, had... I've not been in contact for a while...sigh) who
                        > are Noh performers, and who showed me lots of cool tricks. Don't ask how
                        > long it took me to learn just to *walk* for Noh. And it's been like 10
                        > years, so of course I've forgotten it all and wasted yet another cool
                        > thing I once knew how to do. That sux, b'lieve me.

                        OH no!  That does sound really cool!  It would be neat to have a No actor persona... :)

                        > No, I'm not a musician. Not a singer, either, as you'd know if you'd
                        > ever been in Usami when I had the mike. <G>

                        he he :)

                        Health attend you,
                        Nameless Person
                        --------------------------------------------------
                        Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
                        menhs en cort que de belh saber
                        de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
                        hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
                        e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                                        --Guiraut Riquier, 1292

                      • Stephen Higa
                        Ah yes, Lark in the Morning! So--what do you think about the pipa or sanxian for a substitute? Nameless Person ... Qu er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers menhs
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                          Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning Ah yes, Lark in the Morning!  So--what do you think about the pipa or sanxian for a substitute?

                          Nameless Person
                          --------------------------------------------------
                          Qu'er non es grazitz lunhs mestiers
                          menhs en cort que de belh saber
                          de trobar -- qu'auzir e vezer
                          hi vol hom mais captenhs leugiers
                          e critz mesclatz ab dezonor.

                                          --Guiraut Riquier, 1292


                          ----------
                          From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning
                          Date: Wed, Feb 7, 2001, 11:38 AM


                          heathergray@... wrote:

                          > Found some of the instruments you've been speaking about at Lark in
                          > the Morning (
                          > http://www.larkinthemorning.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/japa
                          > n )
                          >
                          >

                          I love those people!


                          Note that though they don't have a biwa, they *do* have a pipa, which is
                          the Chinese form of a biwa, and the modern sanxian (a cousin of the
                          shamisen).

                          http://www.larkinam.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/LarkNet/China

                          Student model pipa is $299! Gotta love Chinese products. <G>

                          Effingham





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                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... I d go with the pipa. Effingham
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                            Stephen Higa wrote:

                            > Ah yes, Lark in the Morning! So--what do you think about the pipa or
                            > sanxian for a substitute?
                            >

                            I'd go with the pipa.


                            Effingham
                          • schneider
                            How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural stuff? I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70 some and
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                              How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural stuff?
                              I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70 some
                              and sounds nice
                              Pocy
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                              To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:33 PM
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning


                              > Stephen Higa wrote:
                              >
                              > > Ah yes, Lark in the Morning! So--what do you think about the pipa or
                              > > sanxian for a substitute?
                              > >
                              >
                              > I'd go with the pipa.
                              >
                              >
                              > Effingham
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@...
                              >
                              >
                            • Anthony J. Bryant
                              ... The pipa is really the only one of the stringed instruments with a direct analogue to something in Period Japan. Regardless, there s the problem of
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                                schneider wrote:

                                > How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural stuff?
                                > I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70 some
                                > and sounds nice

                                The pipa is really the only one of the stringed instruments with a direct
                                analogue to something in Period Japan.

                                Regardless, there's the problem of learning to play the bloody thing....


                                Effingham
                              • schneider
                                What about the Erhu?I kinda got a liknig for it Pocy ... From: Anthony J. Bryant To: Sent: Wednesday,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 7, 2001
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                                  What about the Erhu?I kinda got a liknig for it
                                  Pocy
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                                  To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 9:13 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: greetings! - instruments at Lark in the Morning


                                  > schneider wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > How many of the Chinese intruments can be used in Japanese cultural
                                  stuff?
                                  > > I liked some of the bowed instruments that are mroe affordable :D. $70
                                  some
                                  > > and sounds nice
                                  >
                                  > The pipa is really the only one of the stringed instruments with a direct
                                  > analogue to something in Period Japan.
                                  >
                                  > Regardless, there's the problem of learning to play the bloody thing....
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Effingham
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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