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Clothing questions

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  • Melissa Hoy
    What exactly is a padded hitoe/kosode? Am I reading this wrong? How would you pad a garment like a hitoe? Wouldn t the padding all fall to the hems if you use
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 2, 2001
      What exactly is a padded hitoe/kosode? Am I reading this wrong? How would
      you pad a garment like a hitoe? Wouldn't the padding all fall to the hems if
      you use something like silk threads? Is it more quilted? Just two layers of
      fabric? Or am I missing the point entirely? ^_^

      I ask mostly because I live in a climate that can be very cold. It's
      currently about 25-30 outside. A padded garment would be just splendid. ^_^

      Also, due to my current state of lack of funding, silk for making garments
      that will be worn at Estrella War seems a tad out of the question. I have a
      lot of fabric that looks like silk, (to my very untrained eye) but I am
      wondering if it would be appropriate for making outdoor (read: Okay to fall
      in the mud and not scream in horror) garments. It's called Silkessence. If
      anyone has used it(or wants to scream at me for not using period fabric)
      please advise me. (It was very cheap and I would not mind terribly if I got
      it dirty.)

      Domo-arigato gozimasu (sp?)
      Kaede
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    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... A padded hitoe sounds like a misnomer, since the name comes from the word for one layer. It s hard to pad something without a lining... OTOH, I
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 2, 2001
        Melissa Hoy wrote:

        > What exactly is a padded hitoe/kosode? Am I reading this wrong? How would
        > you pad a garment like a hitoe? Wouldn't the padding all fall to the hems if
        > you use something like silk threads? Is it more quilted? Just two layers of
        > fabric? Or am I missing the point entirely? ^_^
        >

        A padded hitoe sounds like a misnomer, since the name comes from the word for
        "one layer." It's hard to pad something without a lining... <G> OTOH, I
        wouldn't be surprised if someone used a hitoe pattern for a lined garment and
        continued calling it hitoe.

        Silk dross or silk wool (or even cheap raggedy silk cloth) is used for the
        padding, and it stays pretty much in place. There's no reason someone couldn't
        pick a few stitches here and there, like in a quilt, to help the padding stay
        in place.



        Effingham
      • Melissa Hoy
        ... So there is no real padded garment in the Japanese wardrobe? I m trying to make this as period as possible without freezing my belt off at night. ^_~ I
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 3, 2001
          >A padded hitoe sounds like a misnomer, since the name comes from the word
          >for
          >"one layer." It's hard to pad something without a lining... <G> OTOH, I
          >wouldn't be surprised if someone used a hitoe pattern for a lined garment
          >and
          >continued calling it hitoe.
          >
          >Silk dross or silk wool (or even cheap raggedy silk cloth) is used for the
          >padding, and it stays pretty much in place. There's no reason someone
          >couldn't
          >pick a few stitches here and there, like in a quilt, to help the padding
          >stay
          >in place.

          So there is no real 'padded' garment in the Japanese wardrobe? I'm trying to
          make this as period as possible without freezing my belt off at night. ^_~ I
          may wind up wearing my wool tunic and breeches under my kosode and hakima if
          I get too chilly.

          OH! And overgarments? Is there a Japanese equivilent to a cloak?

          Kaede
          _________________________________________________________________
          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
        • Joshua Badgley
          ... As far as I can tell so far there is just layers. There were some garments that were apparently two layers of fabric sewn together, but mainly it was the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 3, 2001
            On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Melissa Hoy wrote:

            > So there is no real 'padded' garment in the Japanese wardrobe? I'm trying to
            > make this as period as possible without freezing my belt off at night. ^_~ I
            > may wind up wearing my wool tunic and breeches under my kosode and hakima if
            > I get too chilly.
            >
            > OH! And overgarments? Is there a Japanese equivilent to a cloak?

            As far as I can tell so far there is just layers. There were some
            garments that were apparently two layers of fabric sewn together, but
            mainly it was the layers of clothes that one wore. For instance there is
            teh 12-layer robes of some of the court ladies, and I've heard of people
            wearing up to 36. (BTW, did the Japanese ladies ever have the problem of
            the French? That is: wake up, get dressed, eat, get dressed, gossip, eat,
            get dressed, relaxing games, eat, get undressed. I understood that,
            though this here may be an exaaggeration, the majority of many women's
            time was spent getting into and out of clothes and wigs--in France that
            is.)

            So, if the cold is really bothering you, try some layers. If you are
            somewhere like where I am at (it gets -40 to -60 up in Fairbanks during
            the winter) then you might want to consider long underwear beneath all of
            your period garb. Either that, or a layer of warm fabric cut to the
            proper shape might work, but I don't know if it would clash with the silk
            or not.

            I believe that most other winter gear consisted of weaving straw together:
            straw coats, straw hats, straw shoes, and geta to keep your feet out of
            the snow are what I've seen. Then again, it just doesn't seem to get that
            cold in Japan--but I'm a little biased in regards to what I perceive as
            'cold', too.

            -Ii
          • Kass McGann
            ... trying to ... night. ^_~ I ... hakima if ... Kaede-dono, I have five of these padded garments and I only ever wear three of them at a time and only
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 5, 2001
              > So there is no real 'padded' garment in the Japanese wardrobe? I'm
              trying to
              > make this as period as possible without freezing my belt off at
              night. ^_~ I
              > may wind up wearing my wool tunic and breeches under my kosode and
              hakima if
              > I get too chilly.
              >
              > OH! And overgarments? Is there a Japanese equivilent to a cloak?

              Kaede-dono, I have five of these "padded garments" and I only ever
              wear three of them at a time and only outside. I was one of the only
              truely warm people at Crown in Maine last November.

              I assure you. If you make a few padded uchigi, you will have no need
              of a wool tunic or a cloak.

              As Ii-dono so expertly said, it does not get as cold in Kyoto as it
              does in Alaska, but it is terribly damp. If the layers are made of
              silk, you will stay warm. Fear not!

              Fujiwara no Aoi
            • Melissa Hoy
              ... That is extremely helpful. Thank you. One more question. (I think. ^_^) Are the uchigi made like the kosode? I have instructions, but I m not certain I am
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 8, 2001
                >Kaede-dono, I have five of these "padded garments" and I only ever
                >wear three of them at a time and only outside. I was one of the only
                >truely warm people at Crown in Maine last November.
                >
                >I assure you. If you make a few padded uchigi, you will have no need
                >of a wool tunic or a cloak.
                >
                >As Ii-dono so expertly said, it does not get as cold in Kyoto as it
                >does in Alaska, but it is terribly damp. If the layers are made of
                >silk, you will stay warm. Fear not!
                >
                >Fujiwara no Aoi

                That is extremely helpful. Thank you. One more question. (I think. ^_^) Are
                the uchigi made like the kosode? I have instructions, but I'm not certain I
                am reading them correctly. I would feel very silly if I made a whole closet
                full of undergarments. ^_^


                Kaede
                http://www.geocities.com/maravonturlin
                _________________________________________________________________
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              • Kass McGann
                ... ^_^) Are ... certain I ... whole closet ... Glad to be of help, Kaede-dono. A question I must ask in order to answer your question is: how are you making
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 9, 2001
                  > That is extremely helpful. Thank you. One more question. (I think.
                  ^_^) Are
                  > the uchigi made like the kosode? I have instructions, but I'm not
                  certain I
                  > am reading them correctly. I would feel very silly if I made a
                  whole closet
                  > full of undergarments. ^_^

                  Glad to be of help, Kaede-dono.

                  A question I must ask in order to answer your question is: how are
                  you making your kosode? Are you closing up the fronts of the sleeves
                  so that only your hand fits through? If that is the case, leave the
                  front of the sleeve open to make uchigi. Are you making your sleeves
                  with the "origami fold"? If so, make the sleeves the normal way for
                  uchigi. I have never see uchigi with this folded sleeve, only
                  kosode. (And if you don't know what I mean, don't worry about it!)

                  Also, period kosode use a fabric width of about 16.5" and uchigi use
                  18", so just make your uchigi wider.

                  But in general, yes, uchigi and kosode are basically the same pattern.

                  Fujiwara no Aoi
                • Melissa Hoy
                  Before I purchase silk I need to know how to dye it, since the cheapest site sells it only in black and white. I am simply terrified of ruining silk with my
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
                    Before I purchase silk I need to know how to dye it, since the cheapest site
                    sells it only in black and white. I am simply terrified of ruining silk with
                    my inept dying. Any help/suggestions/comments?

                    Kaede
                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                  • Elwynne (Heather Gray) Rowenna of Wentwo
                    The Jacquard Acid Dyes that Fujiwara-hime recommended to me last fall work very well. Although my first attempt was not perfect, because I forgot to include
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
                      The Jacquard Acid Dyes that Fujiwara-hime recommended to me last fall
                      work very well. Although my first attempt was not perfect, because I
                      forgot to include the white vinegar. Perhaps you may wish to try
                      dying a few scarves first. www.silkconnection.com has them, very
                      inexpensive. Just my beginner's perspective....

                      Elwynne

                      --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Melissa Hoy" <mara_von_turlin@h...>
                      wrote:
                      > Before I purchase silk I need to know how to dye it, since the
                      cheapest site
                      > sells it only in black and white. I am simply terrified of ruining
                      silk with
                      > my inept dying. Any help/suggestions/comments?
                      >
                      > Kaede
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
                    • markejag@aol.com
                      Kaede
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
                        Kaede

                        << Before I purchase silk I need to know how to dye it, since the cheapest
                        site sells it only in black and white. I am simply terrified of ruining silk
                        with my inept dying. Any help/suggestions/comments? >>

                        See if you can find/buy Japanese Stencil Dyeing, by Eisha Nakano (ISBN:
                        0-8348-0169-8) published by John Weatherhill. It should help as a starter
                        for de-sizing modern silk and stretching. Best I can do.

                        Lady Fujiwara no Aoi knows more about this and she is on this mailing list
                        and can give massive amounts of help and advice.

                        Bun-ami
                      • Don Luby
                        ... All our dyeing using the Jacquard Acid Dyes have been completely successful, and we were completely new to it, just following the directions that came with
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
                          On Tue, 16 Jan 2001, Elwynne (Heather Gray) Rowenna of Wentworth wrote:

                          > The Jacquard Acid Dyes that Fujiwara-hime recommended to me last
                          > fall work very well. Although my first attempt was not perfect,
                          > because I forgot to include the white vinegar. Perhaps you may wish
                          > to try dying a few scarves first. www.silkconnection.com has them,
                          > very inexpensive. Just my beginner's perspective....
                          >
                          > Elwynne
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Melissa Hoy" <mara_von_turlin@h...>
                          > wrote:
                          >> Before I purchase silk I need to know how to dye it, since the
                          >> cheapest site sells it only in black and white. I am simply
                          >> terrified of ruining silk with my inept dying. Any
                          >> help/suggestions/comments?
                          >>
                          >> Kaede

                          All our dyeing using the Jacquard Acid Dyes have been completely
                          successful, and we were completely new to it, just following the
                          directions that came with the dye powder. We tend to do 6 yard
                          batches, and except for some problems on a test swatches using gutta
                          for resist-dyeing, every batch has come out nice and regular, and in
                          very rich, vibrant colors, and assuming you use vinegar to set, and
                          run it through the rinse cycle, no running of dyes either (even reds).
                          We even found out (empirically, but on a whim) that if you use the
                          same dye bath, but re-filled to account for evaporation, that the next
                          dye batch is paler to the appropriate level; my lady made a set of
                          Heian this past summer (color scheme is either Azalea or Rhododendron,
                          pps. 255 and 258 in Dalby resp.) and it turned out perfectly. If she
                          ever gets around to scanning in the pictures of her wearing it in camp
                          at Pennsic we can show you how it turned out.
                          Once you're comfortable with doing 'normal' dyes, you can mix, or
                          vary the amount of, the dye powder to make non-standard colors; just
                          be warned that in doing so, secondary batches might have unexpected
                          color results: I did a batch which was a combination of Emerald and
                          Teal, which turned out beautifully, but the next batch was much more
                          teal than expected.



                          Koredono

                          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
                          djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                          Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
                        • Don Luby
                          ... A couple of other books which might be of use are Katazone - Japanese Paste-Resist Syeing for Contemporary use by Kumiko Murashima (ISBN 0-937274-72-0)
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 16, 2001
                            On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 markejag@... wrote:

                            > Kaede
                            >
                            > << Before I purchase silk I need to know how to dye it, since the cheapest
                            > site sells it only in black and white. I am simply terrified of ruining silk
                            > with my inept dying. Any help/suggestions/comments? >>
                            >
                            > See if you can find/buy Japanese Stencil Dyeing, by Eisha Nakano (ISBN:
                            > 0-8348-0169-8) published by John Weatherhill. It should help as a starter
                            > for de-sizing modern silk and stretching. Best I can do.

                            A couple of other books which might be of use are
                            "Katazone - Japanese Paste-Resist Syeing for Contemporary use" by
                            Kumiko Murashima (ISBN 0-937274-72-0)
                            "Arimatsu Shibori - A Japanese Tradition of Indigo Dyeing" (ISBN
                            0-925859-02-8)

                            > Lady Fujiwara no Aoi knows more about this and she is on this
                            > mailing list and can give massive amounts of help and advice.
                            >
                            > Bun-ami


                            Koredono

                            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Don Luby Magariki Katsuichi no Koredono
                            djl@... Yama-kaminari-ryu
                            Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands, AEthelmearc
                          • Andrea Gideon
                            ... I searched Banes and Noble and Amazon and neither of them had any of these books. Any other suggestions? Giovanna
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 17, 2001
                              >
                              > > See if you can find/buy Japanese Stencil Dyeing, by Eisha Nakano (ISBN:
                              > > 0-8348-0169-8) published by John Weatherhill. It should help as a starter
                              > > for de-sizing modern silk and stretching. Best I can do.
                              >
                              > A couple of other books which might be of use are
                              > "Katazone - Japanese Paste-Resist Syeing for Contemporary use" by
                              > Kumiko Murashima (ISBN 0-937274-72-0)
                              > "Arimatsu Shibori - A Japanese Tradition of Indigo Dyeing" (ISBN
                              > 0-925859-02-8)
                              >

                              I searched Banes and Noble and Amazon and neither of them had any of these books.
                              Any other suggestions?
                              Giovanna
                            • Elwynne (Heather Gray) Rowenna of Wentwo
                              I went to http://www.bookfinder.com and did a search for the first book by author, and found a few copies. I did a search for the second book using the first
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 17, 2001
                                I went to http://www.bookfinder.com and did a search for the first
                                book by author, and found a few copies. I did a search for the second
                                book using the first two words of the title, and found a few copies
                                of that also. I suggest going there. Bookfinder.com is a search
                                engine for many stores together, many of them too small to have as
                                much notice on the Web if they were separate. I get a lot of my used
                                books through this site.

                                Elwynne

                                --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Andrea Gideon <andrea@g...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > See if you can find/buy Japanese Stencil Dyeing, by Eisha
                                Nakano (ISBN:
                                > > > 0-8348-0169-8) published by John Weatherhill. It should help
                                as a starter
                                > > > for de-sizing modern silk and stretching. Best I can do.
                                > >
                                > > A couple of other books which might be of use are
                                > > "Katazone - Japanese Paste-Resist Syeing for Contemporary
                                use" by
                                > > Kumiko Murashima (ISBN 0-937274-72-0)
                                > > "Arimatsu Shibori - A Japanese Tradition of Indigo Dyeing"
                                (ISBN
                                > > 0-925859-02-8)
                                > >
                                >
                                > I searched Banes and Noble and Amazon and neither of them had any
                                of these books.
                                > Any other suggestions?
                                > Giovanna
                              • todd_last
                                About the juban. Is it basically the same pattern as the kosode? Are the sleeves slightly tighter to the arm to fit under the kosode, or are they the same
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 9, 2004
                                  About the juban. Is it basically the same pattern as the kosode? Are
                                  the sleeves slightly tighter to the arm to fit under the kosode, or
                                  are they the same and you just pull them to fit? Would it always be
                                  worn under the kosode, or can the kosode be worn without it? What
                                  about materials? Cotton, linen?

                                  Thanks!

                                  Todd (Nakazawa, hopefully - if my local herald will get back to me)
                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... Pretty much, yes. The sleeves may be a bit more abbreviated, obviously, but yes. ... It can be, but only if you re too poor to afford one. Effingham
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 10, 2004
                                    todd_last wrote:

                                    > About the juban. Is it basically the same pattern as the kosode?

                                    Pretty much, yes. The sleeves may be a bit more abbreviated, obviously, but yes.

                                    > Are
                                    > the sleeves slightly tighter to the arm to fit under the kosode, or
                                    > are they the same and you just pull them to fit? Would it always be
                                    > worn under the kosode, or can the kosode be worn without it? What
                                    > about materials? Cotton, linen?

                                    It can be, but only if you're too poor to afford one.


                                    Effingham
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