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  • BamboOni@aol.com
    Greetings Everybody, I ve got a question. In armor terminology they are called suneate. But what are the cloth ones worn for everyday wear called? Does
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 2, 2001
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      Greetings Everybody,
       I've got a question. In armor terminology they are called "suneate." But
      what are the cloth ones worn for everyday wear called? Does anyone have a
      pattern for them? They seem to be easy to make (at least for someone else to
      sew for me <G>) How many ties are there?  2 or 3. One at the ankle and one
      above the calf? and/or is there a third one below the calf??? Do the ties go
      all the way around the leg or do they tie only in the back?  I've been
      looking at some of my movies and thought that I had seen some, but now I
      can't find it....Any help would be greatly appreciated.

      Takabayashi Genpachi
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Kyahan. Two ties, one at the calf or just above, one at the ankle, usually tying in front. Effingham
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 2, 2001
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        BamboOni@... wrote:

        > Greetings Everybody,
        > I've got a question. In armor terminology they are called "suneate."
        > But
        > what are the cloth ones worn for everyday wear called? Does anyone
        > have a
        > pattern for them? They seem to be easy to make (at least for someone
        > else to
        > sew for me <G>) How many ties are there? 2 or 3. One at the ankle and
        > one
        > above the calf? and/or is there a third one below the calf??? Do the
        > ties go
        > all the way around the leg or do they tie only in the back? I've been
        >
        > looking at some of my movies and thought that I had seen some, but now
        > I
        > can't find it....Any help would be greatly appreciated.
        >

        Kyahan. Two ties, one at the calf or just above, one at the ankle,
        usually tying in front.


        Effingham
      • BamboOni@aol.com
        In a message dated 1/2/2001 11:05:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Excellent... Thank you very much. I have just one more question. How far around the leg do
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 3, 2001
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          In a message dated 1/2/2001 11:05:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          ajbryant@... writes:


          >Kyahan. Two ties, one at the calf or just above, one at the ankle,
          >usually tying in front.


          >Effingham

          Excellent... Thank you very much. I have just one more question. How far
          around the leg do they go? What I mean is from the front of the shin around
          the leg to the back. Do they stop there? Or do they continue around a bit
          till maybe the sides. For a sort of overlap type thing???


          Takabayashi Genpachi
        • wcbooth@hotmail.com
          ... ankle, ... How far ... shin around ... a bit ... Takabayashi Dono, I think that it s almost like a wraparound legging, but with the edges either metting at
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 3, 2001
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            --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, BamboOni@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 1/2/2001 11:05:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            > ajbryant@i... writes:
            >
            >
            > > >Kyahan. Two ties, one at the calf or just above, one at the
            ankle,
            > > >usually tying in front.
            > >
            > >
            > > >Effingham
            > >
            > Excellent... Thank you very much. I have just one more question.
            How far
            > around the leg do they go? What I mean is from the front of the
            shin around
            > the leg to the back. Do they stop there? Or do they continue around
            a bit
            > till maybe the sides. For a sort of overlap type thing???
            >
            >
            Takabayashi Dono,

            I think that it's almost like a wraparound legging, but with the
            edges either metting at the back, or with the edges maybe an inch
            apart.. i can't realy tell from the picture on page 38 of Arms and
            Armor of the Samurai, as they've been laid flat. but Effingham Dono
            is correct. two sets of ties, one, at the top, and another set just
            below the calf(?)

            please correct me if i'm mistaken, Eff...

            Nobu
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Slight overlap, yes. Remember that they have to cover up your calf and all that material from hakama. Personally, I prefer shitate hakama; they have the
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 4, 2001
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              BamboOni@... wrote:

              >
              > Excellent... Thank you very much. I have just one more question. How
              > far
              > around the leg do they go? What I mean is from the front of the shin
              > around
              > the leg to the back. Do they stop there? Or do they continue around a
              > bit
              > till maybe the sides. For a sort of overlap type thing???

              Slight overlap, yes. Remember that they have to cover up your calf and
              all that material from hakama. Personally, I prefer shitate hakama; they
              have the kyahan integrated as the bottom half of the hakama, so you
              don't have to worry about it.

              Effingham
            • Kev Fitzpatrick
              ... I ve tried to do this, but I haven t found a way of making it work. Help please? Kevin/Takezou __________________________________________________ Do You
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 5, 2001
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                > Personally, I prefer
                > shitate hakama; they
                > have the kyahan integrated as the bottom half of the
                > hakama, so you
                > don't have to worry about it.
                >
                > Effingham

                I've tried to do this, but I haven't found a way of
                making it work. Help please?

                Kevin/Takezou


                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                http://photos.yahoo.com/
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... It s kind of difficult to describe. Basically, start with normal hakama only 3/4 length (i.e., halfway down the calf). You ll fold *in* the outside bit at
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 6, 2001
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                  Kev Fitzpatrick wrote:

                  > > Personally, I prefer
                  > > shitate hakama; they
                  > > have the kyahan integrated as the bottom half of the
                  > > hakama, so you
                  > > don't have to worry about it.
                  > >
                  >
                  > I've tried to do this, but I haven't found a way of
                  > making it work. Help please?

                  It's kind of difficult to describe.

                  Basically, start with normal hakama only 3/4 length (i.e., halfway down
                  the calf). You'll fold *in* the outside bit at the hem, making it look
                  like a triangle has been taken out of the thing. Also, stitch down the
                  folds at the hem, so you have a solid bottom hem rather than one with
                  loose folds. What you're going to want is a hem with a total diameter
                  not much larger than your leg's. Sew on the kyahan section (essentially
                  a tube that has an upper diameter equal to the hem, and a lower diameter
                  a shade larger than your ankle). The ties (one just below the "knee" and
                  one at the ankle) tighten the lower section to your leg, and the rest of
                  the hakama blouses out over it.

                  Effingham
                • Kev Fitzpatrick
                  Cool, thanks, I ll give it a try. Kevin/Takezou __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 7, 2001
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                    Cool, thanks, I'll give it a try.


                    Kevin/Takezou

                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
                    http://photos.yahoo.com/
                  • Bryant Richards
                    Ok I need some help. Well really my wife does since she will be making the garb. We got our first female member of our household last night, and can you
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jul 6 12:35 AM
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                      Ok I need some help. Well really my wife does since she will be making the garb. We got our first female member of our household last night, and can you guess what she wants to be? Geisha, that's right Geisha.
                      We where with a large group of SCA and non-SCA people and she asked me what a Geisha would wear. I told her I wasn't for sure but I thought it was pretty much your standard Kimono with different types of obi (isn't there like 3 or more obi girls wear with a Kimono?). Anyway a non-SCA friends threw a fit, a real screaming tantrum about it, saying she knows for a fact Geisha wore 17 layers of robes that looked nothing like Kimono. Her reference, Japanese anime (GASP). Anyway just to make sure I came home and did a very brief search on Geisha clothing and all the pictures I saw looked like a Kimono to me and didn't look like 17 layers of clothing, idk maybe each obi counts as a layer?

                      What I and my wife would like help on is does anyone have a basic Geisha outfit pattern, preferably late period like Sengoku period. Or if it is just a kimono does anyone have a good pattern for all the layers etc? I did a brief look, even went to Wodefordhall.com and clicked on Japanese resources but got a "page not found" error, but couldn't find any patterns. Of course I was searching Geisha costume and clothing and not Kimono.

                      And secondly, would anyone have a suggestion of how and what to use for her make up that won't sweat off and not be too terribly uncomfortable to wear to an event. That might be to much to ask, but hey anything is probably better than my suggestion of Exterior house paint (kidding)

                      Help can be posted here for all of us to enjoy or sent to me off list. As well as any other tips, etc for her on being a Geisha in the SCA.

                      She will be joining this list as soon as she figures out "that whole yahoo group thing"

                      In Honor and Service,
                      Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                      Chiburi Household





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • autumnriver
                      ... Well, that s a problem. Geisha aren t period. The first geiko dates to 1751, when a female drum-bearer (onna taiko-mochi) showed up at a party in a
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 6 2:41 AM
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > We got our first female member of our household last night, and >can you guess what she wants to be? Geisha, that's right Geisha.

                        Well, that's a problem. Geisha aren't period. The first geiko dates to 1751, when a female drum-bearer (onna taiko-mochi) showed up at a party in a brothel in Shimabara. (See Liza Dalby, _Geisha_ (Univ. of California Press, Berkeley, 1998) p. 56).

                        There were female dancers in period (usually connected with the temples). Kabuki is just post-period (1603), but a female dancer (Izumo no Okuni) started that.

                        There is a book, _Selling Songs and Smiles_ by Janet R. Goodwin (ISBN 0824830970) that looks into the lives of women in the sex trades during the Heian and Kamakura eras. I haven't picked it up yet, but reviews on it were decent. (Yes, yes, I know, Geisha are technically entertainers, but they are classified along with whores. If your friend wants to portray a person of that class, she'd better learn to live with that.)

                        What's wrong with just being an ordinary woman? For example, look at O-Ichi, the sister of Oda Nobunaga. What a balancing act she had to perform between her brother and her husbands! How about the Nun Eshinni, wife of Shinran? While her husband was busy founding Pure Land Buddhism, she ran her own estate. Or Sei Shonagon, writer of the Pillow Book? Women's stories are harder to find (this is true in European history as well), but there are a few out there--at least enough to work from when building a persona.

                        > We where with a large group of SCA and non-SCA people and she asked >me what a Geisha would wear. I told her I wasn't for sure but I >thought it was pretty much your standard Kimono with different types >of obi (isn't there like 3 or more obi girls wear with a Kimono?). >Anyway a non-SCA friends threw a fit, a real screaming tantrum about >it, saying she knows for a fact Geisha wore 17 layers of robes that >looked nothing like Kimono. Her reference, Japanese anime (GASP).

                        Sounds like your non-SCA friend is confusing kimono with junihitoe (12 robes), which could actually have more than 12 layers. Those weren't worn by Geisha, they were worn by women of the kuge (courtier) class, primarily during the Heian period.

                        If your friend could narrow down a time period, then the list might be able to point her towards the resources she needs?

                        --Ki no Kotori
                      • the.lady.phoenix@gmail.com
                        S/he did late period like the Sengoku, so I say we start there. Since Geisha are entertainers perhaps she would be happy with playing a Lord/Samurai s wife
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 6 3:56 AM
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                          S/he did late period like the Sengoku, so I say we start there.

                          Since Geisha are entertainers perhaps she would be happy with playing a
                          Lord/Samurai's wife that maintains the households and entertains his
                          guests? (assuming that would be periodish)

                          As for the anime, I enjoy it as much as the next girl but only an idiot
                          would point to it as "period accurate" and you may tell them I said so. I
                          founded or helped run no less then 3 anime clubs, and never once have I
                          heard of anyone trying to use it as research into their history, current
                          culture or rather the culture at the time the anime came out like say KOR
                          for the eighties (since that is when it was set and made and was
                          contemporary based but discount the "super powers") would be OK but would be
                          no substiute for actually reading scholarly works on modern topics.

                          Sara

                          2009/7/6 autumnriver <tace@...>

                          >
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com <sca-jml%40yahoogroups.com>, Bryant
                          > Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          >
                          > > We where with a large group of SCA and non-SCA people and she asked >me
                          > what a Geisha would wear. I told her I wasn't for sure but I >thought it was
                          > pretty much your standard Kimono with different types >of obi (isn't there
                          > like 3 or more obi girls wear with a Kimono?). >Anyway a non-SCA friends
                          > threw a fit, a real screaming tantrum about >it, saying she knows for a fact
                          > Geisha wore 17 layers of robes that >looked nothing like Kimono. Her
                          > reference, Japanese anime (GASP).
                          >
                          > Sounds like your non-SCA friend is confusing kimono with junihitoe (12
                          > robes), which could actually have more than 12 layers. Those weren't worn by
                          > Geisha, they were worn by women of the kuge (courtier) class, primarily
                          > during the Heian period.
                          >
                          > If your friend could narrow down a time period, then the list might be able
                          > to point her towards the resources she needs?
                          >
                          > --Ki no Kotori
                          >
                          > __.
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • wodeford
                          ... I don t suppose you could tell me which link it was so I could investigate further and either fix or remove it. Appropriate for the 16th century:
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 6 6:23 AM
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:
                            > What I and my wife would like help on is does anyone have a basic Geisha outfit pattern, preferably late period like Sengoku period. Or if it is just a kimono does anyone have a good pattern for all the layers etc? I did a brief look, even went to Wodefordhall.com and clicked on Japanese resources but got a "page not found" error, but couldn't find any patterns.

                            I don't suppose you could tell me which link it was so I could investigate further and either fix or remove it.

                            Appropriate for the 16th century:
                            http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm
                            http://www.wodefordhall.com/toseninkosode.htm

                            Formal dress for a lady of the Imperial Court:
                            http://www.wodefordhall.com/karaginumo.htm

                            Informal dress for a lady of the Imperial Court (including notes on cosmetics, and a link to measurements for the robes):
                            http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm

                            Commercial patterns for court dress:
                            https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/eastern.php?c=22&d=34&w=24&r=YYt

                            An article on geisha, which did not exist in our period, as previously posted:
                            http://www.immortalgeisha.com/history_01.php

                            Saionji no Hanae
                            West Kingdom
                          • Solveig Throndardottir
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Well, the first question is how old is she? That should be the first question. Then you should take her on a tour of
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 6 1:59 PM
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                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig!
                              > We got our first female member of our household last night, and can
                              > you guess what she wants to be? Geisha, that's right Geisha.
                              Well, the first question is how old is she? That should be the first
                              question. Then you should take her on a tour of clothing at the
                              Costume Museum. http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/ to check out clothing
                              that she might actually like to wear.

                              Now then, 芸者 geisha are hugely misunderstood in the United States
                              and that book made matters worse. Literally, geisha means artistic
                              person. Geisha are first and foremost expected to be able to engage
                              in a variety of arts. They should be witty conversationalists, be
                              able to dance, be able to sing, &c. &c. Aside from that, they wore
                              fashionable clothing. Today, geisha wear clothing which is semi-
                              fossilized at around 1850 or so.

                              > What I and my wife would like help on is does anyone have a basic
                              > Geisha outfit pattern, preferably late period like Sengoku period.

                              Despite Japanese love of uniforms, no such uniform exists.

                              > Or if it is just a kimono does anyone have a good pattern for all
                              > the layers etc? I did a brief look, even went to Wodefordhall.com
                              > and clicked on Japanese resources but got a "page not found" error,
                              > but couldn't find any patterns. Of course I was searching Geisha
                              > costume and clothing and not Kimono.

                              The very very expensive and hard to get nuikata book is full of
                              patterns. However, there are folks here who can probably help you out
                              with patterns. But, you should first take the Costume Museum tour.

                              > And secondly, would anyone have a suggestion of how and what to use
                              > for her make up that won't sweat off and not be too terribly
                              > uncomfortable to wear to an event.

                              That depends entirely upon how old this person is and what period she
                              chooses to recreate. For that matter, as I recall, Japanese guys wore
                              makeup during certain periods. Makeup was discussed extensively
                              recently and should be in the archives. One note. She should probably
                              be advised against actually shaving her eyebrows off.

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar
                            • Andrew T Trembley
                              ... So, as others have said, geisha are definitely post-SCA period. So if she wants to be a geisha what does she really want to be? If she wants to be a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jul 6 3:08 PM
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                                On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:35 AM, Bryant Richards wrote:
                                > What I and my wife would like help on is does anyone have a basic
                                > Geisha outfit pattern, preferably late period like Sengoku period.

                                So, as others have said, geisha are definitely post-SCA period. So if
                                she wants to be a "geisha" what does she really want to be?

                                If she wants to be a Momoyama-period high-class courtesan, there's a
                                great example at the Kyoto Costume Museum in the English side:
                                http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/35.htm

                                It's a dan-gawari kosode (with two kosode, one patterned, one plain,
                                under it) and a nagoya obi.

                                I'm sure there are other examples of female entertainers in the
                                Japanese site (it shows probably 3 times as many costumes), but I
                                don't read enough Japanese to be able to definitively identify such
                                professional girls.

                                andy
                              • Bryant Richards
                                ... hahaha I will make sure she knows that. ... She is 22. She really likes Geisha but if it is not period I am sure we can talk her into something else easy
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jul 6 9:17 PM
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                                  >One note. She should probably
                                  >be advised against actually shaving her eyebrows off.

                                  hahaha I will make sure she knows that.

                                  >Well, the first question is how old is she?

                                  She is 22. She really likes Geisha but if it is not period I am sure we can talk her into something else easy enough. Next time she is over I will run her through the costume museum and see what she likes.

                                  >That depends entirely upon how old this person is and what period she
                                  >chooses to recreate.

                                  As above she is 22, and wants to be late period. So far everyone in the household is Sengoku or very near it.


                                  In Honor and Service,
                                  Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                  Chiburi Household




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 3:59:44 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] garb help





                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!
                                  > We got our first female member of our household last night, and can
                                  > you guess what she wants to be? Geisha, that's right Geisha.
                                  Well, the first question is how old is she? That should be the first
                                  question. Then you should take her on a tour of clothing at the
                                  Costume Museum. http://www.iz2 or.jp/english/ to check out clothing
                                  that she might actually like to wear.

                                  Now then, 芸者 geisha are hugely misunderstood in the United States
                                  and that book made matters worse. Literally, geisha means artistic
                                  person. Geisha are first and foremost expected to be able to engage
                                  in a variety of arts. They should be witty conversationalists, be
                                  able to dance, be able to sing, &c. &c. Aside from that, they wore
                                  fashionable clothing. Today, geisha wear clothing which is semi-
                                  fossilized at around 1850 or so.

                                  > What I and my wife would like help on is does anyone have a basic
                                  > Geisha outfit pattern, preferably late period like Sengoku period.

                                  Despite Japanese love of uniforms, no such uniform exists.

                                  > Or if it is just a kimono does anyone have a good pattern for all
                                  > the layers etc? I did a brief look, even went to Wodefordhall. com
                                  > and clicked on Japanese resources but got a "page not found" error,
                                  > but couldn't find any patterns. Of course I was searching Geisha
                                  > costume and clothing and not Kimono.

                                  The very very expensive and hard to get nuikata book is full of
                                  patterns. However, there are folks here who can probably help you out
                                  with patterns. But, you should first take the Costume Museum tour.

                                  > And secondly, would anyone have a suggestion of how and what to use
                                  > for her make up that won't sweat off and not be too terribly
                                  > uncomfortable to wear to an event.

                                  That depends entirely upon how old this person is and what period she
                                  chooses to recreate. For that matter, as I recall, Japanese guys wore
                                  makeup during certain periods. Makeup was discussed extensively
                                  recently and should be in the archives. One note. She should probably
                                  be advised against actually shaving her eyebrows off.

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Bryant Richards
                                  ... http://www.geocities.com/wodeford/www.wodefordhall.com/resources.htm that is the link that comes up as doesn t exist. I clicked on it from:
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jul 6 9:30 PM
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                                    >I don't suppose you could tell me which link it was so I could investigate further and either fix or remove it.

                                    http://www.geocities.com/wodeford/www.wodefordhall.com/resources.htm

                                    that is the link that comes up as doesn't exist. I clicked on it from:

                                    http://www.geocities.com/wodeford/ResourcesJapanese.htm

                                    which says the site has moved giving the link that doesn't work as the home of the new site
                                    and I got that link from:

                                    http://www.wodefordhall.com/samurai.htm

                                    at the very bottom of the page.

                                    I would like to opologize for my last couple of posts for having not deleted the unneeded messages off the bottom. For the last couple of messages when I would highlight what I wanted to delete and pressed the delete key it would send the message instead.

                                    In Honor and Service,
                                    Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                    Chiburi Household




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • wodeford
                                    ... Wodeford Hall has not been on Geocities for several years because it got too big. I moved the site to http://www.wodefordhall.com in 2005. If anyone spots
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jul 6 9:54 PM
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                                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...> wrote:

                                      > http://www.geocities.com/wodeford/www.wodefordhall.com/resources.htm

                                      Wodeford Hall has not been on Geocities for several years because it got too big. I moved the site to http://www.wodefordhall.com in 2005.

                                      If anyone spots any broken links at the new site, do drop me a line and I will be happy to investigate them.

                                      Thank you,
                                      Saionji no Hanae
                                    • Bryant Richards
                                      ... got too big. I moved the site to http://www.wodefordhall.com in 2005. that is the site I started at. If you go there and click on Samurai For The SCA
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jul 7 12:01 AM
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                                        >Wodeford Hall has not been on Geocities for several years because it
                                        got too big. I moved the site to >http://www.wodefordhall.com in 2005.

                                        that is the site I started at. If you go there and click on "Samurai
                                        For The SCA Guy: A photo gallery" it takes you to this link:

                                        http://www.wodefordhall.com/samurai.htm

                                        if you go from there to the very bottom of the page it says "Click
                                        here for resources for Japanese re-enactors. " witch will take you to this link:

                                        http://www.geocities.com/wodeford/ResourcesJapanese.htm

                                        on that page it says "We've moved! Please visit us at our
                                        new site http:www.wodefordhall.com/resources.htm" that link takes you to:

                                        http://www.geocities.com/wodeford/www.wodefordhall.com/resources.htm

                                        which is the page that as you say hasn't existed in awhile. Now if you type in the address "http://www.wodefordhall.com/resources" you get the right page but if you click on it you get the geocities page. So far that is the only broken link I have found



                                        In Honor and Service,
                                        Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                        Chiburi Household




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Erin Kelly
                                        Okay, there s a big difference between geisha and courtesan. A courtesan is explicitly a sex worker. A geisha is an entertainer/hostess that people confuse
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jul 7 8:18 AM
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                                          Okay, there's a big difference between geisha and courtesan. A courtesan is explicitly a sex worker. A geisha is an entertainer/hostess that people confuse with a sex worker.

                                          Personally, I would not encourage any young woman to develop a sex worker persona. Now, its possible she's really into pushing the idea that attitudes toward sex are very different in Japanese culture versus western culture, but for her first attempt at persona...I don't know.

                                          The courtesan from the costume museum has some "loud" accessories - she's definitely setting herself apart as flashier than other women. I'm not sure it's the Muromachi-era equivalent of a leopard-print miniskirt and hot pink tank top, but I couldn't rule that out. (By the way, that cord looks exactly like a drapery cord so I would definitely go that way if you do end up making this kind of outfit!)

                                          Get a copy of the movie Samurai Banners (available on Netflix - although I've had one of their copies for a long time) and have your friend watch it. There are lots of cool-looking late-period women in that movie who are not prostitutes. (Concubine, sure...no worries!) Maybe she'll get inspired to do something a little different.

                                          ERIN
                                        • wodeford
                                          ... The updo which bares the back of her neck is the equivalent of a low slung tube top. Respectable women do not begin putting their hair up again until the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jul 7 8:51 AM
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                                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Erin Kelly <tupan4@...> wrote:
                                            > The courtesan from the costume museum has some "loud" accessories - she's definitely setting herself apart as flashier than other women. I'm not sure it's the Muromachi-era equivalent of a leopard-print miniskirt and hot pink tank top, but I couldn't rule that out.

                                            The updo which bares the back of her neck is the equivalent of a low slung tube top. Respectable women do not begin putting their hair up again until the late 17th century.

                                            Saionji no Hanae
                                          • Bryant Richards
                                            ... friend watch it. There are lots of cool-looking late-period women in that movie who are not prostitutes. (Concubine, sure...no worries!) Maybe she ll get
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jul 7 12:06 PM
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                                              >Get a copy of the movie Samurai Banners (available on Netflix - although I've had one of their copies for a >long time) and have your
                                              friend watch it. There are lots of cool-looking late-period women in
                                              that movie who >are not prostitutes. (Concubine, sure...no worries!)
                                              Maybe she'll get inspired to do something a little different.

                                              Good idea. I was trying not to reveal anything personal about her but maybe this little bit will help people to understand her wanting the geisha type persona.. she is a collared slave. I am not turning this into a discussion on BDSM which I am sure is not something to be discussed in this list. Just simply sharing why she is leaning the way she is on persona type. She wants to bleed some of her lifestyle into her SCA persona. The courtesan garb attracted her almost completely because of the drapery cord obi being so similiar to rope, to give you an idea of how she thinks. Me personaly I like persona's that are different than your real life. It is much more fun to be someone different on the weekends than to be the same old you, just with different cloths.

                                              That being said maybe she shouldn't do it, I have already tried to steer her towards other things, but alas she is pretty determined, so I have been trying to find something that looks like what she wants that doesn't yell, "free ride" to those of us who know what a Japanese sex merchant looks like. It is quickly becoming one of those "why me?" moments.

                                              In Honor and Service,
                                              Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                              Chiburi Household




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Andrew T Trembley
                                              ... If that s part of why she s interested, Fetish Diva Midori has a social sciences background, a solid grounding in Japanese culture and history, and an
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jul 7 4:58 PM
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                                                On Jul 7, 2009, at 12:06 PM, Bryant Richards wrote:
                                                > Good idea. I was trying not to reveal anything personal about her
                                                > but maybe this little bit will help people to understand her wanting
                                                > the geisha type persona.. she is a collared slave. I am not turning
                                                > this into a discussion on BDSM which I am sure is not something to
                                                > be discussed in this list. Just simply sharing why she is leaning
                                                > the way she is on persona type.

                                                If that's part of why she's interested, Fetish Diva Midori has a
                                                social sciences background, a solid grounding in Japanese culture and
                                                history, and an impeccable reputation both academically and in the
                                                scene. She's the sort of person your new household member should be
                                                looking up to.

                                                A quote from Midori that we all should keep in mind (not just the BDSM
                                                crowd):
                                                "I think you can be a scholar of another culture, you can appreciate
                                                it. But there's a difference between a scholar and a fetishist. A
                                                scholar studies a culture in a three-dimensional way, but a fetishist
                                                selects certain things that appeal to him and creates a fantasy idea
                                                of what the culture is. I think there's a lot of fetishizing of
                                                Japanese culture going on in certain circles."

                                                andy
                                              • tupan4
                                                ... not something to be discussed in this list. Just simply sharing why she is leaning the way she is on persona type. ... Ah, good, then the leap to
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jul 7 7:28 PM
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                                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Bryant Richards <ninjalikereflex@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I am not turning this into a discussion on BDSM which I am sure is
                                                  not something to be discussed in this list. Just simply sharing why she
                                                  is leaning the way she is on persona type.
                                                  <...>
                                                  > In Honor and Service,
                                                  > Uesugi no Ryujuichiro Uchiyasu
                                                  > Chiburi Household

                                                  Ah, good, then the leap to courtesan was not a careless one.

                                                  My impression is that a courtesan was probably closer to a geisha than a
                                                  slave, but she still would probably have more status and much more
                                                  autonomy than even a western prostitute. Sex in general was way more
                                                  open and less shameful in Japan than we're used to in the western world,
                                                  which affected how they thought of sex workers. So it still doesn't
                                                  seem like an obviously good fit to me, but maybe I'm being too picky -
                                                  at least she should know what she's getting in to!

                                                  Sounds like someone else recommended a good starting point for her
                                                  research - good luck and I hope things turn out awesome!

                                                  ERIN
                                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Sociologically, she would be well advised to pick sometime prior to the Jokyu Disturbance ca 1221. Your Humble
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jul 8 9:44 PM
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                                                    Noble Cousin!

                                                    Greetings from Solveig!
                                                    > As above she is 22, and wants to be late period. So far everyone
                                                    > in the household is Sengoku or very near it.
                                                    Sociologically, she would be well advised to pick sometime prior to
                                                    the Jokyu Disturbance ca 1221.

                                                    Your Humble Servant
                                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Amateur Scholar
                                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese did not generally collar slaves. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jul 8 10:03 PM
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                                                      Noble Cousin!

                                                      Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese did not generally collar slaves.

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar
                                                    • Andrew T Trembley
                                                      ... Ignore that part. It s a pop-culture reference, not a historical reference. andy
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jul 8 10:07 PM
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                                                        Solveig Throndardottir wrote:
                                                        > Noble Cousin!
                                                        >
                                                        > Greetings from Solveig! The Japanese did not generally collar slaves.
                                                        >
                                                        Ignore that part. It's a pop-culture reference, not a historical reference.

                                                        andy
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