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Re: Help with name documentation

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  • Eyler Larson
    To Solveig Throndardottir, A great many thanks for the name help, I officially submitted my name request and the baronial herald tells me anticipate a response
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 13, 2013
      To Solveig Throndardottir,

      A great many thanks for the name help, I officially submitted my name request and the baronial herald tells me anticipate a response in about 9 months.

      :-(

      Oh we'll, I'm more patient in my old age. I'll work on my device. That brings me to the next question. How do you submit a Japanese Mon style as a device. I thought maybe the blazon on a rondel then when I actually draw it using artistic expression to make it more like a Japanese Mon, just use the circle and the blazon without the outer shield shape.

      How do Japanese personas work within the SCA device rules?

      Any help is again appreciated.

      Best Regards,

      Ooda Ujimasa
      Mundane: Eyler Larson

      Sent from my iPad
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Ōda Ujimasa dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... Devices are always submitted on an escutcheon (shield shape) form. Badges are always submitted on a square form.
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 25, 2013
        Ōda Ujimasa dono!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        Oh we'll, I'm more patient in my old age. I'll work on my device. That brings me to the next question. How do you submit a Japanese Mon style as a device.

        Devices are always submitted on an escutcheon (shield shape) form. Badges are always submitted on a square form. The theory for devices is that the design flows to fill the space of the shield shape it is displayed on. This means that a border will follow the edge of a shield and will be round on a round shield. However, it is probably better to treat annular rings in Japanese kamon as an annulus and not as a border. That way they stay rings no matter what you display them on. Incidentally, annular rings are not all that common with early Japanese kamon. 

        I thought maybe the blazon on a rondel then when I actually draw it using artistic expression to make it more like a Japanese Mon, just use the circle and the blazon without the outer shield shape.

        How do Japanese personas work within the SCA device rules?

        Today, there are two possible approaches. One way is to design something which follows "core style" rules and only uses charges used in European heraldry. The other approach is to document your design as an "individually attested pattern". In principle, the second approach allows you to use Japanese charges which do not appear in "core style" armory. Incidentally, there is a fair amount of interest in "individually attested patterns" even with European armory. Regardless, if for example you want to use a tomoe in your armory, then you have to follow the second approach. This requires that your armory be purely Japanese in its design. Individually attested patterns are for the purist. 

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

      • Sakurái no Jirou Takéo
        Here s what I did for my device: http://www.modaruniversity.org/Tor-Devices/Sakurai-no-Jirou-Takeo.jpg Argent, a torii gate gules and on a chief wavy sable
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 25, 2013

          Argent, a torii gate gules and on a chief wavy sable three cherry blossoms argent

          It follows the European rules, but uses Japanese-related items.  On the LoAR it says: "There is a step from period practice for the use of a torii gate."

          I believe the rules is one step away is fine, so as long as you don't try too many things being a step away, you should be able to make it work.
           
          Sakurái no Jirou Takéo (aka Jeremiah Jennings)
          Kingdom of Calontir
          Barony of Forgotten Sea
          Canton of Aston Tor
          Champagne Players
          Argent, a torii gate gules and on a chief wavy sable three cherry blossoms argent


          From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Help with name documentation

           
          Ōda Ujimasa dono!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          Oh we'll, I'm more patient in my old age. I'll work on my device. That brings me to the next question. How do you submit a Japanese Mon style as a device.

          Devices are always submitted on an escutcheon (shield shape) form. Badges are always submitted on a square form. The theory for devices is that the design flows to fill the space of the shield shape it is displayed on. This means that a border will follow the edge of a shield and will be round on a round shield. However, it is probably better to treat annular rings in Japanese kamon as an annulus and not as a border. That way they stay rings no matter what you display them on. Incidentally, annular rings are not all that common with early Japanese kamon. 

          I thought maybe the blazon on a rondel then when I actually draw it using artistic expression to make it more like a Japanese Mon, just use the circle and the blazon without the outer shield shape.

          How do Japanese personas work within the SCA device rules?

          Today, there are two possible approaches. One way is to design something which follows "core style" rules and only uses charges used in European heraldry. The other approach is to document your design as an "individually attested pattern". In principle, the second approach allows you to use Japanese charges which do not appear in "core style" armory. Incidentally, there is a fair amount of interest in "individually attested patterns" even with European armory. Regardless, if for example you want to use a tomoe in your armory, then you have to follow the second approach. This requires that your armory be purely Japanese in its design. Individually attested patterns are for the purist. 

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar



        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! One step from period practice is allowed, but having two or more is grounds for return. This is the case if you take
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 25, 2013
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! One "step from period practice" is allowed, but having two or more is grounds for return. This is the case if you take the "core style" approach to things. The torii gate is frequently allowed, but is considered a step from period practice. There is no guarantee that items which are a step from period practice will be allowed in the future, although they generally will be. For some reason, the College of Arms has been returning the tomoe. I think that it gets reamed for being a design instead of an artifact. I am confident that Europeans (specifically Iberians) encountered tomoe prior to 1601. On the other hand, individually attested patterns can break all of the style rules for core style, but must be documented to a single culture. 

            So, for example, the Japanese butterfly has been returned in the past on the grounds that it has "triune aspect". However, it should be possible to pass the things as an "individually attested pattern" as I can document them in Japanese armory prior to 1601. Note. As an individually attested pattern, you will most likely not be able to charge the wings with cherry blossoms as I am pretty sure that the Japanese were not doing that. It doesn't matter that you can do things like that in core style when you are following the individually attested pattern path. 

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

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