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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Japanese vowels sound like Spanish vowels: A as in the A in swat or the AU in caught I as in the E in beet or sweet U
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 11 7:05 AM
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! 

      Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would one pronounce: The given names Suke / Sukeko, Tashi and the surname Asakura?  I ran across historical figures with these names, but can't find Japanese pronunciations for them.

      Japanese vowels sound like Spanish vowels:
      A as in the A in swat or the AU in caught
      I as in the E in beet or sweet
      U as in the U in lute or the OO in boot
      E as in the E in bet  or met
      O as in the O in boat or more

      Japanese consonants sound pretty much like English consonants except for R which sounds midway between an L and an R.

      Also, can anyone help me document the name Ryûzô (Ryuzo) for my husband. We used http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html to find it, but it was returned saying "Sengokudaimyo is not sufficient documentation by itself as there are no dates to given to prove the given name was used during our time." Any help there would be fantastic.

      Ryūzō sounds modern.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

    • russ register
      well I am part japanese and you should ask a japanese I hate hearing sca people buthcering names or not understand what names mean or the back ground or wrong
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 11 9:13 AM
        well I am part japanese and you should ask a japanese I hate hearing sca people buthcering names or not understand what names mean or the back ground or wrong mon for a last name og so bad
        or I was watching a lady point her chopstick stright up in her rice such a fopa
        ya thats for the dead
        huge insult
        i understand its a longing to be like but please ask a japanese person who follows the old ways and not insut or butchers this is not to harm but help but I have been in sca long time on and off and always haters who HATE CHANGE 

        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        From: takedasakura@...
        Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 05:40:54 -0500
        Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name

         
        Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would one pronounce: The given names Suke / Sukeko, Tashi and the surname Asakura? I ran across historical figures with these names, but can't find Japanese pronunciations for them.

        Also, can anyone help me document the name Ryûzô (Ryuzo) for my husband. We used http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html to find it, but it was returned saying "Sengokudaimyo is not sufficient documentation by itself as there are no dates to given to prove the given name was used during our time." Any help there would be fantastic.

        Thank you again for the help!
        _________
        Takeda Sakura
        Webminister: Crimson River


      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You realize that Tsunoda Bun ei s book is basically a history of Japanese feminine names. It does have tables of names
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 11 12:57 PM
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! You realize that Tsunoda Bun'ei 's book is basically a history of Japanese feminine names. It does have tables of names scattered around in it, but they can be difficult to read as some of these names use non-standard kanji without furigana telling you how they are being read. The book is organized chronologically and within chronological sections it is organized by class and name type. The book was originally published as three volumes, but these are collected together for the current edition. I am not sure what you are hoping to do with the book in question, but I wish you luck with it. 

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

        • russ register
          I learn from Natives to see how they pronounce words and then have them help me do it phonetically and thats how I write it down not how they spell it. Like in
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 11 1:35 PM
            I learn from Natives to see how they pronounce words and then have them help me do it phonetically and thats how I write it down not how they spell it.
            Like in Russian Priv Yet cog do la. WHo cares how its writing its how they pronounce it and this works with all. You will get the lang down better and might even have natives ask are you a spy no american accent lol its funny when they do this that means you did it correct.
            please forgive my typing and writing skills. Its the message. I love others learning and try to help. We are here to have FUN hehe

             

            From: russellregister@...
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name
            Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:13:08 +0000

            well I am part japanese and you should ask a japanese I hate hearing sca people buthcering names or not understand what names mean or the back ground or wrong mon for a last name og so bad
            or I was watching a lady point her chopstick stright up in her rice such a fopa
            ya thats for the dead
            huge insult
            i understand its a longing to be like but please ask a japanese person who follows the old ways and not insut or butchers this is not to harm but help but I have been in sca long time on and off and always haters who HATE CHANGE 

            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            From: takedasakura@...
            Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 05:40:54 -0500
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name

             
            Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would one pronounce: The given names Suke / Sukeko, Tashi and the surname Asakura? I ran across historical figures with these names, but can't find Japanese pronunciations for them.

            Also, can anyone help me document the name Ryûzô (Ryuzo) for my husband. We used http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html to find it, but it was returned saying "Sengokudaimyo is not sufficient documentation by itself as there are no dates to given to prove the given name was used during our time." Any help there would be fantastic.

            Thank you again for the help!
            _________
            Takeda Sakura
            Webminister: Crimson River


          • daironwrath
            Funny you should say that, Russ Register, because I am of French heritage and it is very insulting and culturally insensitive to me when you write faux pas
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 12 3:25 AM
              Funny you should say that, Russ Register, because I am of French heritage and it is very insulting and culturally insensitive to me when you write "faux pas" as "fopa". Pehaps you should take your own advice and consult with a French person before appropriating their phrases. Or just be a little more tolerant of people who are doing the best they can with the resources available to them in their attempt to HAVE FUN in this GAME we all love.
            • Bolline
              longing to be like you think a lot of your self Russ Register. I butcher a lot of languages and cultures and I can t say I have a longing. Did you bother to
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 12 4:30 AM

                "longing to be like" you think a lot of your self Russ Register. I butcher a lot of languages and cultures and I can't say I have a longing. Did you bother to explain to the lady about the rice if she is not Japanese than that is not a tradition she follows. 

                99.9 % German and I only speaks a word or two. 

                Kendall

                Sent from my iPhone

                On Sep 12, 2013, at 5:25 AM, <pleaserescuecooper@...> wrote:

                 

                Funny you should say that, Russ Register, because I am of French heritage and it is very insulting and culturally insensitive to me when you write "faux pas" as "fopa". Pehaps you should take your own advice and consult with a French person before appropriating their phrases. Or just be a little more tolerant of people who are doing the best they can with the resources available to them in their attempt to HAVE FUN in this GAME we all love.

              • LJonthebay
                Moderator note: Please keep your posts to one another polite. It s all too easy for internet communication to be misread and taken offense at because tone of
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 12 7:23 AM
                  Moderator note: Please keep your posts to one another polite. It's all too easy for internet communication to be misread and taken offense at because tone of voice and body language are missing.

                  Regarding pronunciation, did you know that Google Translate often includes audio so you can hear how a word is pronounced? Just look for the "speaker" icon under the translated word or phrase. http://translate.google.com/

                  I've also picked up a little bit simply from watching Japanese films. I desperately need English subtitles, but I'm at the point where I can usually pick out names from the rest, plus those words I already know.

                  Saionji no Hana, Pacific Timezone Moderator
                • LJonthebay
                  I have just been forced to delete a post from the list and issue a warning to the poster. If you cannot keep things civil, you will be placed on moderated
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 12 9:01 AM
                    I have just been forced to delete a post from the list and issue a warning to the poster.

                    If you cannot keep things civil, you will be placed on moderated status. If you are repeatedly and deliberately obnoxious, you will be removed from the group. There's a difference between spirited intellectual debate and a flame war.

                    I suggest everyone calm down and have a cup of tea.

                    Saionji no Hana, Pacific Timezone Moderator

                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "LJonthebay" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Moderator note: Please keep your posts to one another polite. It's all too easy for internet communication to be misread and taken offense at because tone of voice and body language are missing.
                  • Sakura Takeda
                    Thank you again for the pronunciation Solveig. You have been a lot of help. ... Between Solveig s help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese person
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 12 5:35 PM
                      Thank you again for the pronunciation Solveig. You have been a lot of help.

                      Japanese vowels sound like Spanish vowels:
                      A as in the A in swat or the AU in caught
                      I as in the E in beet or sweet
                      U as in the U in lute or the OO in boot
                      E as in the E in bet or met
                      O as in the O in boat or more

                      Between Solveig's help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese person pronouncing Suke, I think I have made my decision to go with Sakurai Sukeko as it is as close to keeping Sakura in the name as I seem to be able to do. 

                      So, now, what I want to know is what is the easiest way to document the name of an existing historical figure? I'm only going to use the given name, not the entire name. I found the name listed twice on the list of nyoin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nyoin 

                      Inbu-mon In (殷富門院): Imperial Princess Sukeko (亮子内親王) (1147-1216) - mother-in-law(准母) of Emperor Antoku and Emperor Go-Toba
                      and
                      Kōhan-mon In (光範門院): Fujiwara no Sukeko (藤原資子) (1384-1440) - consort of Emperor Go-Komatsu (mother of Emperor Shōkō)

                      I don't think I can use wikipedia as a source and I have poured over my local library with no success on finding mentions of these figures in books. So, can anyone help me out on a way to document to either document these figures or the name itself?

                      Thanks again everyone

                      _________
                      Takeda Sakura
                      Webminister: Crimson River

                    • Sakura Takeda
                      I got a reply on Facebook on documenting my name, so I wanted to say never mind on my last e-mail. Thanks very much to Saionji no Hana for the assist.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 12 9:55 PM
                        I got a reply on Facebook on documenting my name, so I wanted to say never mind on my last e-mail. Thanks very much to Saionji no Hana for the assist.

                        _________
                        Takeda Sakura
                        Webminister: Crimson River

                      • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                        ... Also keep in mind that nicknames are wonderful things (even in period), and that saying ...but my friends call me Sakura is charming. -- THL Ishiyama
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 13 4:06 AM
                          Takeda Sakura wrote:
                          > Between Solveig's help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese
                          > person pronouncing Suke, I think I have made my decision to go with
                          > Sakurai Sukeko as it is as close to keeping Sakura in the name as I
                          > seem to be able to do.

                          Also keep in mind that nicknames are wonderful things (even in period),
                          and that saying "...but my friends call me Sakura" is charming.

                          --
                          THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                          (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                          ishiyama@...
                        • Sakurái no Jirou Takéo
                          Yeah, everyone calls me Saki because it s easier to remember.  ;-) Lord Sakurái no Jirou Takéo Kingdom of Calontir Barony of Forgotten Sea Canton of Aston
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 13 4:09 AM

                            Yeah, everyone calls me Saki because it's easier to remember. ;-)

                            Lord Sakurái no Jirou Takéo
                            Kingdom of Calontir
                            Barony of Forgotten Sea
                            Canton of Aston Tor
                            Champagne Players



                            From: Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...>;
                            To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>;
                            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name
                            Sent: Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:06:56 AM

                             

                            Takeda Sakura wrote:

                            > Between Solveig's help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese
                            > person pronouncing Suke, I think I have made my decision to go with
                            > Sakurai Sukeko as it is as close to keeping Sakura in the name as I
                            > seem to be able to do.

                            Also keep in mind that nicknames are wonderful things (even in period),
                            and that saying "...but my friends call me Sakura" is charming.

                            --
                            THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                            (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                            ishiyama@...

                          • LJonthebay
                            ... You re welcome. (In case anyone cares, I provided page numbers from NCMJ.) Saionji no Hana, West Kingdom
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 13 6:07 AM
                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Sakura Takeda <takedasakura@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I got a reply on Facebook on documenting my name, so I wanted to say never mind on my last e-mail. Thanks very much to Saionji no Hana for the assist.

                              You're welcome. (In case anyone cares, I provided page numbers from NCMJ.)

                              Saionji no Hana, West Kingdom
                            • rjb@ns.sympatico.ca
                              wow I suppose you beat your kids and kick you dogs too for helping and the dog getting in the way slap you self and commit�self infelicted death over dishonor
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 13 9:27 AM
                                "wow I suppose you beat your kids and kick you dogs too for helping and the dog getting in the way
                                slap you self and commit self infelicted death over dishonor to you ancestorys"
                                 
                                Really, was THAT necessary? I can understand being upset because people took what you said the wrong way. But accusing people of child abuse and telling them to kill themselves is WAY over the line. It's not okay at all.
                                 
                                -Aimee aka Hirokawa No Tsuru
                              • Solveig Throndardottir
                                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 13 10:29 AM
                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  Greetings from Solveig!

                                  So, now, what I want to know is what is the easiest way to document the name of an existing historical figure? I'm only going to use the given name, not the entire name. I found the name listed twice on the list of nyoin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nyoin 

                                  Inbu-mon In (殷富門院): Imperial Princess Sukeko (亮子内親王) (1147-1216) - mother-in-law(准母) of Emperor Antoku and Emperor Go-Toba
                                  and
                                  Kōhan-mon In (光範門院): Fujiwara no Sukeko (藤原資子) (1384-1440) - consort of Emperor Go-Komatsu (mother of Emperor Shōkō)

                                  Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子 appears in NCMJ. So you cite NCMJ as follows:

                                  Sakurai 桜井 (1482) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 325
                                  Sukeko 資子 (1384) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 305

                                  NCMJ is on the no photocopy list so pretty much all you need to do is cite the entries from NCMJ and note that Sakurai is a family name and Sukeko is a given name.

                                  Note. Sakura'i also appears in the table of ancient uji on page 396 or NCMJ Rev. Ed. So it is a very distinguished family. 

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                • Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 13 10:37 AM
                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                    So, now, what I want to know is what is the easiest way to document the name of an existing historical figure? I'm only going to use the given name, not the entire name. I found the name listed twice on the list of nyoin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nyoin 

                                    Inbu-mon In (殷富門院): Imperial Princess Sukeko (亮子内親王) (1147-1216) - mother-in-law(准母) of Emperor Antoku and Emperor Go-Toba
                                    and
                                    Kōhan-mon In (光範門院): Fujiwara no Sukeko (藤原資子) (1384-1440) - consort of Emperor Go-Komatsu (mother of Emperor Shōkō)

                                    Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子 appears in NCMJ. So you cite NCMJ as follows:

                                    Sakurai 桜井 (1482) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 325
                                    Sukeko 資子 (1384) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 305

                                    NCMJ is on the no photocopy list so pretty much all you need to do is cite the entries from NCMJ and note that Sakurai is a family name and Sukeko is a given name.

                                    Note. Sakura'i also appears in the table of ancient uji on page 396 or NCMJ Rev. Ed. So it is a very distinguished family. 

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

                                  • LJonthebay
                                    The poster has been put on moderated status and given a warning. Saionji no Hana, Pacific Time Zone Moderator
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 13 11:54 AM
                                      The poster has been put on moderated status and given a warning.

                                      Saionji no Hana, Pacific Time Zone Moderator
                                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I have no idea how long this has been sitting in my drafts folder. I hope that it is helpful to somebody. An abbreviated
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 2, 2014
                                        An abbreviated list of Azuchi-Momoya Feminine Given Names found in 『日本の女性名』by 角田 文衞 ISBN 4336047456 :

                                        Acha 阿茶              
                                        Achacha 阿茶茶
                                        Achao 阿茶阿
                                        Ago あ五
                                        Agogo あ五五
                                        Ai あい
                                        Akaka あかか
                                        Ako 阿子
                                        Akoko あここ
                                        Aya あや
                                        Ayamachi あやまち
                                        Ayaya あやや
                                        Chacha 茶々
                                        Chibo ちぼ
                                        Chii ちいい
                                        Chima ちま
                                        Chiyaa ちやあ
                                        Chiyago ちやご
                                        Chiyo 千代
                                        Chiyobo ちよぼ
                                        Fuku 福
                                        Furu 振
                                        Gomoji 五もじ
                                        Haru 春
                                        Higashi 東
                                        Ia いあ
                                        Ichi 市
                                        Ichiya いちや
                                        Ichiyako いちや子
                                        Ima いま
                                        Ima'aki いまあき
                                        Inaka いなか
                                        Ishi 石
                                        Ishikame 石か女
                                        Ito いと
                                        Itoito いといと
                                        Itoko いと子
                                        Iya いや
                                        Kaka かか
                                        Kame 龜
                                        Kii きい
                                        Kiku 菊
                                        Kita 北
                                        Kiyaku きやく
                                        Kogou こ五う
                                        Koito こいと
                                        Koko ここ
                                        Kou こう
                                        Koya こや
                                        Koyaya こやや
                                        Kuri くり
                                        Kurikaka くりかか
                                        Matsu 松
                                        Muku むく
                                        Mume 梅
                                        Natsu 夏
                                        Nene 禰々
                                        Nishi 西
                                        Riri 里々 
                                        Sako さこ
                                        Sashi さし
                                        Shiyaa しやあ
                                        Tama 玉
                                        Tau たう
                                        Toku 徳
                                        Tomo とも
                                        Tsuru 鶴
                                        Uba うば
                                        Uta うた
                                        Yasha 夜叉
                                        Yaya やや
                                        Yayacha やや茶
                                        Yayame 彌々女
                                        夜叉千

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

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