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Re: [SCA-JML] Given name

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  • sara_seigel
    I m not faint hearted.... slightly mad yes, but not faint hearted! Thank you for the information. Morishima
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 10, 2013
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      I'm not faint hearted.... slightly mad yes, but not faint hearted!

      Thank you for the information.

      Morishima

      On 10/09/2013, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
      > Noble Cousin!
      >
      > Greetings from Solveig!
      >
      >> I'm a bit late to the converstation but I was wondering if Solveig
      >> could share the ISBN of "Nihon no Joseimei Tsunoda Bunei" and/or a
      >> place were I might buy a copy for my shelf.
      >
      >
      > The book is not for the fainthearted. Regardless, the ISBN: 4336047456
      > I bought my copy from amazon.co.jp which currently has one copy in stock for
      > 8400 yen plus shipping.
      > Tsunoda Bun'ei is the author.
      >
      > Your Humble Servant
      > Solveig Throndardottir
      > Amateur Scholar
      >
      >
    • Sakura Takeda
      Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 11, 2013
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        Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would one pronounce: The given names Suke / Sukeko, Tashi and the surname Asakura? I ran across historical figures with these names, but can't find Japanese pronunciations for them.

        Also, can anyone help me document the name Ryûzô (Ryuzo) for my husband. We used http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html to find it, but it was returned saying "Sengokudaimyo is not sufficient documentation by itself as there are no dates to given to prove the given name was used during our time." Any help there would be fantastic.

        Thank you again for the help!
        _________
        Takeda Sakura
        Webminister: Crimson River
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Japanese vowels sound like Spanish vowels: A as in the A in swat or the AU in caught I as in the E in beet or sweet U
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 11, 2013
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! 

          Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would one pronounce: The given names Suke / Sukeko, Tashi and the surname Asakura?  I ran across historical figures with these names, but can't find Japanese pronunciations for them.

          Japanese vowels sound like Spanish vowels:
          A as in the A in swat or the AU in caught
          I as in the E in beet or sweet
          U as in the U in lute or the OO in boot
          E as in the E in bet  or met
          O as in the O in boat or more

          Japanese consonants sound pretty much like English consonants except for R which sounds midway between an L and an R.

          Also, can anyone help me document the name Ryûzô (Ryuzo) for my husband. We used http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html to find it, but it was returned saying "Sengokudaimyo is not sufficient documentation by itself as there are no dates to given to prove the given name was used during our time." Any help there would be fantastic.

          Ryūzō sounds modern.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

        • russ register
          well I am part japanese and you should ask a japanese I hate hearing sca people buthcering names or not understand what names mean or the back ground or wrong
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 11, 2013
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            well I am part japanese and you should ask a japanese I hate hearing sca people buthcering names or not understand what names mean or the back ground or wrong mon for a last name og so bad
            or I was watching a lady point her chopstick stright up in her rice such a fopa
            ya thats for the dead
            huge insult
            i understand its a longing to be like but please ask a japanese person who follows the old ways and not insut or butchers this is not to harm but help but I have been in sca long time on and off and always haters who HATE CHANGE 

            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            From: takedasakura@...
            Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 05:40:54 -0500
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name

             
            Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would one pronounce: The given names Suke / Sukeko, Tashi and the surname Asakura? I ran across historical figures with these names, but can't find Japanese pronunciations for them.

            Also, can anyone help me document the name Ryûzô (Ryuzo) for my husband. We used http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html to find it, but it was returned saying "Sengokudaimyo is not sufficient documentation by itself as there are no dates to given to prove the given name was used during our time." Any help there would be fantastic.

            Thank you again for the help!
            _________
            Takeda Sakura
            Webminister: Crimson River


          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! You realize that Tsunoda Bun ei s book is basically a history of Japanese feminine names. It does have tables of names
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 11, 2013
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! You realize that Tsunoda Bun'ei 's book is basically a history of Japanese feminine names. It does have tables of names scattered around in it, but they can be difficult to read as some of these names use non-standard kanji without furigana telling you how they are being read. The book is organized chronologically and within chronological sections it is organized by class and name type. The book was originally published as three volumes, but these are collected together for the current edition. I am not sure what you are hoping to do with the book in question, but I wish you luck with it. 

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

            • russ register
              I learn from Natives to see how they pronounce words and then have them help me do it phonetically and thats how I write it down not how they spell it. Like in
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 11, 2013
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                I learn from Natives to see how they pronounce words and then have them help me do it phonetically and thats how I write it down not how they spell it.
                Like in Russian Priv Yet cog do la. WHo cares how its writing its how they pronounce it and this works with all. You will get the lang down better and might even have natives ask are you a spy no american accent lol its funny when they do this that means you did it correct.
                please forgive my typing and writing skills. Its the message. I love others learning and try to help. We are here to have FUN hehe

                 

                From: russellregister@...
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name
                Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:13:08 +0000

                well I am part japanese and you should ask a japanese I hate hearing sca people buthcering names or not understand what names mean or the back ground or wrong mon for a last name og so bad
                or I was watching a lady point her chopstick stright up in her rice such a fopa
                ya thats for the dead
                huge insult
                i understand its a longing to be like but please ask a japanese person who follows the old ways and not insut or butchers this is not to harm but help but I have been in sca long time on and off and always haters who HATE CHANGE 

                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                From: takedasakura@...
                Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 05:40:54 -0500
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name

                 
                Thank you so much for the list of names, they got me started in the right direction. So, they are greatly appreciated! I have some more questions. How would one pronounce: The given names Suke / Sukeko, Tashi and the surname Asakura? I ran across historical figures with these names, but can't find Japanese pronunciations for them.

                Also, can anyone help me document the name Ryûzô (Ryuzo) for my husband. We used http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html to find it, but it was returned saying "Sengokudaimyo is not sufficient documentation by itself as there are no dates to given to prove the given name was used during our time." Any help there would be fantastic.

                Thank you again for the help!
                _________
                Takeda Sakura
                Webminister: Crimson River


              • daironwrath
                Funny you should say that, Russ Register, because I am of French heritage and it is very insulting and culturally insensitive to me when you write faux pas
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 12, 2013
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                  Funny you should say that, Russ Register, because I am of French heritage and it is very insulting and culturally insensitive to me when you write "faux pas" as "fopa". Pehaps you should take your own advice and consult with a French person before appropriating their phrases. Or just be a little more tolerant of people who are doing the best they can with the resources available to them in their attempt to HAVE FUN in this GAME we all love.
                • Bolline
                  longing to be like you think a lot of your self Russ Register. I butcher a lot of languages and cultures and I can t say I have a longing. Did you bother to
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 12, 2013
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                    "longing to be like" you think a lot of your self Russ Register. I butcher a lot of languages and cultures and I can't say I have a longing. Did you bother to explain to the lady about the rice if she is not Japanese than that is not a tradition she follows. 

                    99.9 % German and I only speaks a word or two. 

                    Kendall

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Sep 12, 2013, at 5:25 AM, <pleaserescuecooper@...> wrote:

                     

                    Funny you should say that, Russ Register, because I am of French heritage and it is very insulting and culturally insensitive to me when you write "faux pas" as "fopa". Pehaps you should take your own advice and consult with a French person before appropriating their phrases. Or just be a little more tolerant of people who are doing the best they can with the resources available to them in their attempt to HAVE FUN in this GAME we all love.

                  • LJonthebay
                    Moderator note: Please keep your posts to one another polite. It s all too easy for internet communication to be misread and taken offense at because tone of
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 12, 2013
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                      Moderator note: Please keep your posts to one another polite. It's all too easy for internet communication to be misread and taken offense at because tone of voice and body language are missing.

                      Regarding pronunciation, did you know that Google Translate often includes audio so you can hear how a word is pronounced? Just look for the "speaker" icon under the translated word or phrase. http://translate.google.com/

                      I've also picked up a little bit simply from watching Japanese films. I desperately need English subtitles, but I'm at the point where I can usually pick out names from the rest, plus those words I already know.

                      Saionji no Hana, Pacific Timezone Moderator
                    • LJonthebay
                      I have just been forced to delete a post from the list and issue a warning to the poster. If you cannot keep things civil, you will be placed on moderated
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 12, 2013
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                        I have just been forced to delete a post from the list and issue a warning to the poster.

                        If you cannot keep things civil, you will be placed on moderated status. If you are repeatedly and deliberately obnoxious, you will be removed from the group. There's a difference between spirited intellectual debate and a flame war.

                        I suggest everyone calm down and have a cup of tea.

                        Saionji no Hana, Pacific Timezone Moderator

                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "LJonthebay" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Moderator note: Please keep your posts to one another polite. It's all too easy for internet communication to be misread and taken offense at because tone of voice and body language are missing.
                      • Sakura Takeda
                        Thank you again for the pronunciation Solveig. You have been a lot of help. ... Between Solveig s help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese person
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 12, 2013
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                          Thank you again for the pronunciation Solveig. You have been a lot of help.

                          Japanese vowels sound like Spanish vowels:
                          A as in the A in swat or the AU in caught
                          I as in the E in beet or sweet
                          U as in the U in lute or the OO in boot
                          E as in the E in bet or met
                          O as in the O in boat or more

                          Between Solveig's help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese person pronouncing Suke, I think I have made my decision to go with Sakurai Sukeko as it is as close to keeping Sakura in the name as I seem to be able to do. 

                          So, now, what I want to know is what is the easiest way to document the name of an existing historical figure? I'm only going to use the given name, not the entire name. I found the name listed twice on the list of nyoin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nyoin 

                          Inbu-mon In (殷富門院): Imperial Princess Sukeko (亮子内親王) (1147-1216) - mother-in-law(准母) of Emperor Antoku and Emperor Go-Toba
                          and
                          Kōhan-mon In (光範門院): Fujiwara no Sukeko (藤原資子) (1384-1440) - consort of Emperor Go-Komatsu (mother of Emperor Shōkō)

                          I don't think I can use wikipedia as a source and I have poured over my local library with no success on finding mentions of these figures in books. So, can anyone help me out on a way to document to either document these figures or the name itself?

                          Thanks again everyone

                          _________
                          Takeda Sakura
                          Webminister: Crimson River

                        • Sakura Takeda
                          I got a reply on Facebook on documenting my name, so I wanted to say never mind on my last e-mail. Thanks very much to Saionji no Hana for the assist.
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 12, 2013
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                            I got a reply on Facebook on documenting my name, so I wanted to say never mind on my last e-mail. Thanks very much to Saionji no Hana for the assist.

                            _________
                            Takeda Sakura
                            Webminister: Crimson River

                          • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                            ... Also keep in mind that nicknames are wonderful things (even in period), and that saying ...but my friends call me Sakura is charming. -- THL Ishiyama
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 13, 2013
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                              Takeda Sakura wrote:
                              > Between Solveig's help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese
                              > person pronouncing Suke, I think I have made my decision to go with
                              > Sakurai Sukeko as it is as close to keeping Sakura in the name as I
                              > seem to be able to do.

                              Also keep in mind that nicknames are wonderful things (even in period),
                              and that saying "...but my friends call me Sakura" is charming.

                              --
                              THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                              (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                              ishiyama@...
                            • Sakurái no Jirou Takéo
                              Yeah, everyone calls me Saki because it s easier to remember.  ;-) Lord Sakurái no Jirou Takéo Kingdom of Calontir Barony of Forgotten Sea Canton of Aston
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 13, 2013
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                                Yeah, everyone calls me Saki because it's easier to remember. ;-)

                                Lord Sakurái no Jirou Takéo
                                Kingdom of Calontir
                                Barony of Forgotten Sea
                                Canton of Aston Tor
                                Champagne Players



                                From: Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...>;
                                To: <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>;
                                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Given name
                                Sent: Fri, Sep 13, 2013 11:06:56 AM

                                 

                                Takeda Sakura wrote:

                                > Between Solveig's help and finally finding some audio of a Japanese
                                > person pronouncing Suke, I think I have made my decision to go with
                                > Sakurai Sukeko as it is as close to keeping Sakura in the name as I
                                > seem to be able to do.

                                Also keep in mind that nicknames are wonderful things (even in period),
                                and that saying "...but my friends call me Sakura" is charming.

                                --
                                THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                                (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                                ishiyama@...

                              • LJonthebay
                                ... You re welcome. (In case anyone cares, I provided page numbers from NCMJ.) Saionji no Hana, West Kingdom
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 13, 2013
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                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Sakura Takeda <takedasakura@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I got a reply on Facebook on documenting my name, so I wanted to say never mind on my last e-mail. Thanks very much to Saionji no Hana for the assist.

                                  You're welcome. (In case anyone cares, I provided page numbers from NCMJ.)

                                  Saionji no Hana, West Kingdom
                                • rjb@ns.sympatico.ca
                                  wow I suppose you beat your kids and kick you dogs too for helping and the dog getting in the way slap you self and commit�self infelicted death over dishonor
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 13, 2013
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                                    "wow I suppose you beat your kids and kick you dogs too for helping and the dog getting in the way
                                    slap you self and commit self infelicted death over dishonor to you ancestorys"
                                     
                                    Really, was THAT necessary? I can understand being upset because people took what you said the wrong way. But accusing people of child abuse and telling them to kill themselves is WAY over the line. It's not okay at all.
                                     
                                    -Aimee aka Hirokawa No Tsuru
                                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 13, 2013
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      So, now, what I want to know is what is the easiest way to document the name of an existing historical figure? I'm only going to use the given name, not the entire name. I found the name listed twice on the list of nyoin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nyoin 

                                      Inbu-mon In (殷富門院): Imperial Princess Sukeko (亮子内親王) (1147-1216) - mother-in-law(准母) of Emperor Antoku and Emperor Go-Toba
                                      and
                                      Kōhan-mon In (光範門院): Fujiwara no Sukeko (藤原資子) (1384-1440) - consort of Emperor Go-Komatsu (mother of Emperor Shōkō)

                                      Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子 appears in NCMJ. So you cite NCMJ as follows:

                                      Sakurai 桜井 (1482) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 325
                                      Sukeko 資子 (1384) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 305

                                      NCMJ is on the no photocopy list so pretty much all you need to do is cite the entries from NCMJ and note that Sakurai is a family name and Sukeko is a given name.

                                      Note. Sakura'i also appears in the table of ancient uji on page 396 or NCMJ Rev. Ed. So it is a very distinguished family. 

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                    • Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 13, 2013
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                                        Noble Cousin!

                                        Greetings from Solveig!

                                        So, now, what I want to know is what is the easiest way to document the name of an existing historical figure? I'm only going to use the given name, not the entire name. I found the name listed twice on the list of nyoin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nyoin 

                                        Inbu-mon In (殷富門院): Imperial Princess Sukeko (亮子内親王) (1147-1216) - mother-in-law(准母) of Emperor Antoku and Emperor Go-Toba
                                        and
                                        Kōhan-mon In (光範門院): Fujiwara no Sukeko (藤原資子) (1384-1440) - consort of Emperor Go-Komatsu (mother of Emperor Shōkō)

                                        Unfortunately, I do not believe that the College of Arms accepts Wikipedia articles. Fortunately, Sukeko 資子 appears in NCMJ. So you cite NCMJ as follows:

                                        Sakurai 桜井 (1482) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 325
                                        Sukeko 資子 (1384) NCMJ Rev Ed pg. 305

                                        NCMJ is on the no photocopy list so pretty much all you need to do is cite the entries from NCMJ and note that Sakurai is a family name and Sukeko is a given name.

                                        Note. Sakura'i also appears in the table of ancient uji on page 396 or NCMJ Rev. Ed. So it is a very distinguished family. 

                                        Your Humble Servant
                                        Solveig Throndardottir
                                        Amateur Scholar

                                      • LJonthebay
                                        The poster has been put on moderated status and given a warning. Saionji no Hana, Pacific Time Zone Moderator
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 13, 2013
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                                          The poster has been put on moderated status and given a warning.

                                          Saionji no Hana, Pacific Time Zone Moderator
                                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I have no idea how long this has been sitting in my drafts folder. I hope that it is helpful to somebody. An abbreviated
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 2, 2014
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                                            An abbreviated list of Azuchi-Momoya Feminine Given Names found in 『日本の女性名』by 角田 文衞 ISBN 4336047456 :

                                            Acha 阿茶              
                                            Achacha 阿茶茶
                                            Achao 阿茶阿
                                            Ago あ五
                                            Agogo あ五五
                                            Ai あい
                                            Akaka あかか
                                            Ako 阿子
                                            Akoko あここ
                                            Aya あや
                                            Ayamachi あやまち
                                            Ayaya あやや
                                            Chacha 茶々
                                            Chibo ちぼ
                                            Chii ちいい
                                            Chima ちま
                                            Chiyaa ちやあ
                                            Chiyago ちやご
                                            Chiyo 千代
                                            Chiyobo ちよぼ
                                            Fuku 福
                                            Furu 振
                                            Gomoji 五もじ
                                            Haru 春
                                            Higashi 東
                                            Ia いあ
                                            Ichi 市
                                            Ichiya いちや
                                            Ichiyako いちや子
                                            Ima いま
                                            Ima'aki いまあき
                                            Inaka いなか
                                            Ishi 石
                                            Ishikame 石か女
                                            Ito いと
                                            Itoito いといと
                                            Itoko いと子
                                            Iya いや
                                            Kaka かか
                                            Kame 龜
                                            Kii きい
                                            Kiku 菊
                                            Kita 北
                                            Kiyaku きやく
                                            Kogou こ五う
                                            Koito こいと
                                            Koko ここ
                                            Kou こう
                                            Koya こや
                                            Koyaya こやや
                                            Kuri くり
                                            Kurikaka くりかか
                                            Matsu 松
                                            Muku むく
                                            Mume 梅
                                            Natsu 夏
                                            Nene 禰々
                                            Nishi 西
                                            Riri 里々 
                                            Sako さこ
                                            Sashi さし
                                            Shiyaa しやあ
                                            Tama 玉
                                            Tau たう
                                            Toku 徳
                                            Tomo とも
                                            Tsuru 鶴
                                            Uba うば
                                            Uta うた
                                            Yasha 夜叉
                                            Yaya やや
                                            Yayacha やや茶
                                            Yayame 彌々女
                                            夜叉千

                                            Your Humble Servant
                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                            Amateur Scholar

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