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Re: [SCA-JML] Help with name documentation

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! First of all, drop the -no- .. The possessive -no- is at best tricky to use correctly. It appears to be associated with
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 2, 2013
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! First of all, drop the -no- .. The possessive -no- is at best tricky to use correctly. It appears to be associated with uji (ancient clan) names and you aren't doing that. Last I heard, the College of Arms is not accepting Sengoku Daimyo as documentation. They are accepting Name Construction in Medieval Japan (NCMJ) as documentation.

      You misread a line in Anthony Bryant's Japanese Miscellany. Michi means path. Masa means any of several other things. I am assuming that you are already calling yourself Ujimasa so I am including documentation for that.

      Try writing the following as documentation:

      Ooda Matatarou Ujimasa (Oda Matataro Ujimasa)

      The order is <family name><common name><nanori> (NCMJ Rev Ed. Pg 67)
      Ooda (also written as Ōda note the macron over the O) 大田 (ca 1332) (NCMJ Rev Ed. Pg 324).
      Matatarou (also written as Matatarō note the macron over the O) 又太郎 (ca 1392)(NCMJ Rev Ed. Pg 372)
      Ujimasa 氏政 is a constructed nanori.
      --> The prototheme 氏 uji (family) appears as a prototheme (ca 1392)(NCMJ Rev Ed. Pg 188)
      --> The deuterotheme 政 masa (Govern / Rule / Instruct / Self-Control) appears as a deuterotheme (ca 1332)(NCMJ Rev Ed. Pg 189 ff)
      --> There was a man named Hōjō Ujimasa 北条 氏政 (1538-1590)

      Note. Why the funny spelling for Oda? The reason is that Japanese distinguishes between short duration vowels and long duration vowels. Both versions of O sound like the O in Oat or Boat. However, the short version means "small" and the long version means "big".

      Note. The final U in Matatrou indicates that the O is long. The Japanese have two different ways for phonetically writing long O. In paleo-Japanese they sounded a bit different, but they pretty much sound the same now.

      Note. Pelican Sovereign of Arms allows "lazy romanization", so you do not have to indicate the long O's in these names when you write out the name. However, you should understand that they should be pronounced longer than short O's and you do need to understand that there will be a somewhat different spelling in the documentation.

      Good Luck!!

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Eyler Larson
      To Solveig Throndardottir, A great many thanks for the name help, I officially submitted my name request and the baronial herald tells me anticipate a response
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 13, 2013
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        To Solveig Throndardottir,

        A great many thanks for the name help, I officially submitted my name request and the baronial herald tells me anticipate a response in about 9 months.

        :-(

        Oh we'll, I'm more patient in my old age. I'll work on my device. That brings me to the next question. How do you submit a Japanese Mon style as a device. I thought maybe the blazon on a rondel then when I actually draw it using artistic expression to make it more like a Japanese Mon, just use the circle and the blazon without the outer shield shape.

        How do Japanese personas work within the SCA device rules?

        Any help is again appreciated.

        Best Regards,

        Ooda Ujimasa
        Mundane: Eyler Larson

        Sent from my iPad
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Ōda Ujimasa dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... Devices are always submitted on an escutcheon (shield shape) form. Badges are always submitted on a square form.
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 25, 2013
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          Ōda Ujimasa dono!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          Oh we'll, I'm more patient in my old age. I'll work on my device. That brings me to the next question. How do you submit a Japanese Mon style as a device.

          Devices are always submitted on an escutcheon (shield shape) form. Badges are always submitted on a square form. The theory for devices is that the design flows to fill the space of the shield shape it is displayed on. This means that a border will follow the edge of a shield and will be round on a round shield. However, it is probably better to treat annular rings in Japanese kamon as an annulus and not as a border. That way they stay rings no matter what you display them on. Incidentally, annular rings are not all that common with early Japanese kamon. 

          I thought maybe the blazon on a rondel then when I actually draw it using artistic expression to make it more like a Japanese Mon, just use the circle and the blazon without the outer shield shape.

          How do Japanese personas work within the SCA device rules?

          Today, there are two possible approaches. One way is to design something which follows "core style" rules and only uses charges used in European heraldry. The other approach is to document your design as an "individually attested pattern". In principle, the second approach allows you to use Japanese charges which do not appear in "core style" armory. Incidentally, there is a fair amount of interest in "individually attested patterns" even with European armory. Regardless, if for example you want to use a tomoe in your armory, then you have to follow the second approach. This requires that your armory be purely Japanese in its design. Individually attested patterns are for the purist. 

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

        • Sakurái no Jirou Takéo
          Here s what I did for my device: http://www.modaruniversity.org/Tor-Devices/Sakurai-no-Jirou-Takeo.jpg Argent, a torii gate gules and on a chief wavy sable
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 25, 2013
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            Argent, a torii gate gules and on a chief wavy sable three cherry blossoms argent

            It follows the European rules, but uses Japanese-related items.  On the LoAR it says: "There is a step from period practice for the use of a torii gate."

            I believe the rules is one step away is fine, so as long as you don't try too many things being a step away, you should be able to make it work.
             
            Sakurái no Jirou Takéo (aka Jeremiah Jennings)
            Kingdom of Calontir
            Barony of Forgotten Sea
            Canton of Aston Tor
            Champagne Players
            Argent, a torii gate gules and on a chief wavy sable three cherry blossoms argent


            From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:39 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Help with name documentation

             
            Ōda Ujimasa dono!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            Oh we'll, I'm more patient in my old age. I'll work on my device. That brings me to the next question. How do you submit a Japanese Mon style as a device.

            Devices are always submitted on an escutcheon (shield shape) form. Badges are always submitted on a square form. The theory for devices is that the design flows to fill the space of the shield shape it is displayed on. This means that a border will follow the edge of a shield and will be round on a round shield. However, it is probably better to treat annular rings in Japanese kamon as an annulus and not as a border. That way they stay rings no matter what you display them on. Incidentally, annular rings are not all that common with early Japanese kamon. 

            I thought maybe the blazon on a rondel then when I actually draw it using artistic expression to make it more like a Japanese Mon, just use the circle and the blazon without the outer shield shape.

            How do Japanese personas work within the SCA device rules?

            Today, there are two possible approaches. One way is to design something which follows "core style" rules and only uses charges used in European heraldry. The other approach is to document your design as an "individually attested pattern". In principle, the second approach allows you to use Japanese charges which do not appear in "core style" armory. Incidentally, there is a fair amount of interest in "individually attested patterns" even with European armory. Regardless, if for example you want to use a tomoe in your armory, then you have to follow the second approach. This requires that your armory be purely Japanese in its design. Individually attested patterns are for the purist. 

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar



          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! One step from period practice is allowed, but having two or more is grounds for return. This is the case if you take
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 25, 2013
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! One "step from period practice" is allowed, but having two or more is grounds for return. This is the case if you take the "core style" approach to things. The torii gate is frequently allowed, but is considered a step from period practice. There is no guarantee that items which are a step from period practice will be allowed in the future, although they generally will be. For some reason, the College of Arms has been returning the tomoe. I think that it gets reamed for being a design instead of an artifact. I am confident that Europeans (specifically Iberians) encountered tomoe prior to 1601. On the other hand, individually attested patterns can break all of the style rules for core style, but must be documented to a single culture. 

              So, for example, the Japanese butterfly has been returned in the past on the grounds that it has "triune aspect". However, it should be possible to pass the things as an "individually attested pattern" as I can document them in Japanese armory prior to 1601. Note. As an individually attested pattern, you will most likely not be able to charge the wings with cherry blossoms as I am pretty sure that the Japanese were not doing that. It doesn't matter that you can do things like that in core style when you are following the individually attested pattern path. 

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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