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Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions

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  • lordtakeda
    So, what s the proper title? I m confused, so sorry. -Takeda ________________________________ From: Solveig Throndardottir To:
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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      So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.

      -Takeda




      ________________________________
      From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 4:30 PM
      Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions


       
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! There is a nokami title which was used by civilian/imperial court appointee provincial governors. This should not be confused with the military governors. An interesting note is that a province could and have both flavors of governor. So, yes you can be a nokami but that is claiming a civilian appointment instead of a military appointment. The sugo were around during the Kamakura and Muromachi periods. The nokami date from the organization of the imperial government. There are organization charts for this sort of thing which appear in the appendices of kogojiten. I can recommend a particularly good one if you can deal with Japanese.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JL Badgley
      Are you looking for a military governor, an imperially/royally appointed governor, or just a local warlord? Personally, I support the XX-no-kami route, in
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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        Are you looking for a military governor, an imperially/royally appointed
        governor, or just a local warlord?

        Personally, I support the XX-no-kami route, in general. As a baron, you
        are appointed by the crown, and it is not necessarily a military
        appointment. I believe Solveig-hime prefers "Shugo" (Solveig-hime, how
        would you recommend using that with a name and the various equivalencies
        with SCA practice?) because most people are portraying samurai--inherently
        military in nature.

        -Ii

        On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 8:29 PM, <barontakeda@...> wrote:

        > So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.
        >
        > -Takeda
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
        > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 4:30 PM
        > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions
        >
        >
        >
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig! There is a nokami title which was used by
        > civilian/imperial court appointee provincial governors. This should not be
        > confused with the military governors. An interesting note is that a
        > province could and have both flavors of governor. So, yes you can be a
        > nokami but that is claiming a civilian appointment instead of a military
        > appointment. The sugo were around during the Kamakura and Muromachi
        > periods. The nokami date from the organization of the imperial government.
        > There are organization charts for this sort of thing which appear in the
        > appendices of kogojiten. I can recommend a particularly good one if you can
        > deal with Japanese.
        >
        > Your Humble Servant
        > Solveig Throndardottir
        > Amateur Scholar
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lordtakeda
        Thank you. Shugo, pronounced Shoe- go ? Daimyo, pronounced Dime-yo ? Thank you fopr taking the time to assist me. -Takeda   ________________________________
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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          Thank you.

          Shugo, pronounced "Shoe- go"?
          Daimyo, pronounced "Dime-yo"?

          Thank you fopr taking the time to assist me.


          -Takeda

           

          ________________________________
          From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
          To: "sca-jml@yahoogroups.com" <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:16 PM
          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions


           
          As a title, "X-no-kami" is best--it refers to "The lord/ruler/head honcho
          of X".

          "Shugo" refers to the job. I would think "Shugo-sama" is an appropriate
          term for addressing a baron in general.

          "Daimyo" is not inappropriate, but it isn't necessarily a 1 for 1
          equivalent. Early daimyo ("Big Name") were also shugo, but as the central
          government's hold collapsed others became "daimyo" and held land more by
          the force of their arms and politics with their neighbors than by any
          official appointment.

          -Ii

          On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:09 AM, barontakeda@...> wrote:

          > Konnichiwa to the List,
          >
          > Two questions:
          >
          > 1. Daimyo: would this be the proper title for a Landed Baron?
          >
          > 2. What is proper way to pronounce "Daimyo"? Dime- Yo?
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Baron Takeda Yoshinaka
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... There are several possible proper titles out there. It depends upon what era (etc) you wish to recreate. Since you
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.

            There are several possible "proper" titles out there. It depends upon what era (etc) you wish to recreate. Since you are most likely interested in the warlords of the Muromachi period, then the proper title is most likely shugo. People can, however, simply address you as "tono" or <territory> "dono" or a variety of other things.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... As you noted I generally advise people who are interested in playing samurai to adopt military government titles. Shugo
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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              Ii dono!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              > appointment. I believe Solveig-hime prefers "Shugo" (Solveig-hime, how
              > would you recommend using that with a name and the various equivalencies
              > with SCA practice?) because most people are portraying samurai--inherently
              > military in nature.

              As you noted I generally advise people who are interested in playing samurai to adopt military government titles. Shugo is a title and office and should be able to be slotted post-positionally just like you might slot nokami. So <territory>no shugo, <name>shugo, shugo dono ("lord baron"), &c. Simply referring to someone by title is very common in Japan so the last would be fairly common. Although you did not ask, I generally use bushou 武将 for knight and slot that as if it were a regular honorific such as <name>bushou or busho dono ("sir knight"). This is not so much a title as a description. It has the advantage of being frequently used word to describe someone as a military leader in Japanese.

              Incidentally, I do recommend that people who are interested in the Heian period or simply want to be a courtier or have a strong imperial allegiance such as Date dono who recreates the nanbokuchou period use imperial titles or possibly even cloistered emperor appointments. Ahh Japan is delightfully complex when you scratch below the surface.

              Following the Meiji Restoration in 1868 the Japanese adopted a whole new title system in imitation of the English and Germans and invented a whole lot of new words such as danshaku 男爵 (baron) and that sort of thing.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JL Badgley
              As a side note, while not really as appropriate for Japanese personas, Danshaku and other such post period titles are a great way to refer to a European
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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                As a side note, while not really as appropriate for Japanese personas,
                "Danshaku" and other such post period titles are a great way to refer to a
                European baron in Japanese, which is how the Japanese SCAdians I've talked
                with use it.

                Ii
                On Feb 10, 2013 11:36 PM, "Solveig Throndardottir" <nostrand@...> wrote:

                > Ii dono!
                >
                > Greetings from Solveig!
                >
                > > appointment. I believe Solveig-hime prefers "Shugo" (Solveig-hime, how
                > > would you recommend using that with a name and the various equivalencies
                > > with SCA practice?) because most people are portraying
                > samurai--inherently
                > > military in nature.
                >
                > As you noted I generally advise people who are interested in playing
                > samurai to adopt military government titles. Shugo is a title and office
                > and should be able to be slotted post-positionally just like you might slot
                > nokami. So <territory>no shugo, <name>shugo, shugo dono ("lord baron"), &c.
                > Simply referring to someone by title is very common in Japan so the last
                > would be fairly common. Although you did not ask, I generally use bushou 武将
                > for knight and slot that as if it were a regular honorific such as
                > <name>bushou or busho dono ("sir knight"). This is not so much a title as a
                > description. It has the advantage of being frequently used word to describe
                > someone as a military leader in Japanese.
                >
                > Incidentally, I do recommend that people who are interested in the Heian
                > period or simply want to be a courtier or have a strong imperial allegiance
                > such as Date dono who recreates the nanbokuchou period use imperial titles
                > or possibly even cloistered emperor appointments. Ahh Japan is delightfully
                > complex when you scratch below the surface.
                >
                > Following the Meiji Restoration in 1868 the Japanese adopted a whole new
                > title system in imitation of the English and Germans and invented a whole
                > lot of new words such as danshaku 男爵 (baron) and that sort of thing.
                >
                > Your Humble Servant
                > Solveig Throndardottir
                > Amateur Scholar
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • lordtakeda
                Thank you. -Takeda ________________________________ From: Solveig Throndardottir To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 11, 2013
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                  Thank you.

                  -Takeda



                  ________________________________
                  From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                  To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 11:07 PM
                  Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions


                   
                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.

                  There are several possible "proper" titles out there. It depends upon what era (etc) you wish to recreate. Since you are most likely interested in the warlords of the Muromachi period, then the proper title is most likely shugo. People can, however, simply address you as "tono" or "dono" or a variety of other things.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • lordtakeda
                  Shugo, pronounced Shoe- go ? Daimyo, pronounced Dime-yo ?   Not sure which term I ll use. Thank you for taking the time to assist me. -Takeda
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 11, 2013
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                    Shugo, pronounced "Shoe- go"?
                    Daimyo, pronounced "Dime-yo"?
                     
                    Not sure which term I'll use.

                    Thank you for taking the time to assist me.


                    -Takeda


                    ________________________________
                    From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
                    To: "sca-jml@yahoogroups.com" <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:16 PM
                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions

                     
                    As a title, "X-no-kami" is best--it refers to "The lord/ruler/head honchoof X"."Shugo" refers to the job. I would think "Shugo-sama" is an appropriateterm for addressing a baron in general."Daimyo" is not inappropriate, but it isn't necessarily a 1 for 1equivalent. Early daimyo ("Big Name") were also shugo, but as the centralgovernment's hold collapsed others became "daimyo" and held land more bythe force of their arms and politics with their neighbors than by anyofficial appointment.-IiOn Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:09 AM, barontakeda@...> wrote:> Konnichiwa to the List,>> Two questions:>> 1. Daimyo: would this be the proper title for a Landed Baron?>> 2. What is proper way to pronounce "Daimyo"? Dime- Yo?>> Thank you,> Baron Takeda Yoshinaka>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>>> ------------------------------------>> UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links>>>>[Non-text portions of this message
                    have been removed]


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Solveig Throndardottir
                    Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solvieg! I was just thumbing through Daibukan by Hashimoto Hiroshi and ran across a notation for a provincial governor. Here the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 12, 2013
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                      Noble Cousins!

                      Greetings from Solvieg! I was just thumbing through Daibukan by Hashimoto Hiroshi and ran across a notation for a provincial governor. Here the structure appears to be: <familly name><province name>nokami<nanori> So the territorial title appears to be slotted as if it were a common use name.

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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