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Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Daimyou 大名 (lit. big name) is not really an office or a title. The title/office that these worthies typically had was
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig! Daimyou 大名 (lit. big name) is not really an office or a title. The title/office that these worthies typically had was shugo (shoe-go) 守護 The shugo were provincial military governors.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JL Badgley
      As a title, X-no-kami is best--it refers to The lord/ruler/head honcho of X . Shugo refers to the job. I would think Shugo-sama is an appropriate term
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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        As a title, "X-no-kami" is best--it refers to "The lord/ruler/head honcho
        of X".

        "Shugo" refers to the job. I would think "Shugo-sama" is an appropriate
        term for addressing a baron in general.

        "Daimyo" is not inappropriate, but it isn't necessarily a 1 for 1
        equivalent. Early daimyo ("Big Name") were also shugo, but as the central
        government's hold collapsed others became "daimyo" and held land more by
        the force of their arms and politics with their neighbors than by any
        official appointment.

        -Ii


        On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:09 AM, <barontakeda@...> wrote:

        > Konnichiwa to the List,
        >
        > Two questions:
        >
        > 1. Daimyo: would this be the proper title for a Landed Baron?
        >
        > 2. What is proper way to pronounce "Daimyo"? Dime- Yo?
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Baron Takeda Yoshinaka
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! There is a nokami title which was used by civilian/imperial court appointee provincial governors. This should not be
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! There is a nokami title which was used by civilian/imperial court appointee provincial governors. This should not be confused with the military governors. An interesting note is that a province could and have both flavors of governor. So, yes you can be a nokami but that is claiming a civilian appointment instead of a military appointment. The sugo were around during the Kamakura and Muromachi periods. The nokami date from the organization of the imperial government. There are organization charts for this sort of thing which appear in the appendices of kogojiten. I can recommend a particularly good one if you can deal with Japanese.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lordtakeda
          So, what s the proper title? I m confused, so sorry. -Takeda ________________________________ From: Solveig Throndardottir To:
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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            So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.

            -Takeda




            ________________________________
            From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 4:30 PM
            Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions


             
            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig! There is a nokami title which was used by civilian/imperial court appointee provincial governors. This should not be confused with the military governors. An interesting note is that a province could and have both flavors of governor. So, yes you can be a nokami but that is claiming a civilian appointment instead of a military appointment. The sugo were around during the Kamakura and Muromachi periods. The nokami date from the organization of the imperial government. There are organization charts for this sort of thing which appear in the appendices of kogojiten. I can recommend a particularly good one if you can deal with Japanese.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • JL Badgley
            Are you looking for a military governor, an imperially/royally appointed governor, or just a local warlord? Personally, I support the XX-no-kami route, in
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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              Are you looking for a military governor, an imperially/royally appointed
              governor, or just a local warlord?

              Personally, I support the XX-no-kami route, in general. As a baron, you
              are appointed by the crown, and it is not necessarily a military
              appointment. I believe Solveig-hime prefers "Shugo" (Solveig-hime, how
              would you recommend using that with a name and the various equivalencies
              with SCA practice?) because most people are portraying samurai--inherently
              military in nature.

              -Ii

              On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 8:29 PM, <barontakeda@...> wrote:

              > So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.
              >
              > -Takeda
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
              > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 4:30 PM
              > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions
              >
              >
              >
              > Noble Cousin!
              >
              > Greetings from Solveig! There is a nokami title which was used by
              > civilian/imperial court appointee provincial governors. This should not be
              > confused with the military governors. An interesting note is that a
              > province could and have both flavors of governor. So, yes you can be a
              > nokami but that is claiming a civilian appointment instead of a military
              > appointment. The sugo were around during the Kamakura and Muromachi
              > periods. The nokami date from the organization of the imperial government.
              > There are organization charts for this sort of thing which appear in the
              > appendices of kogojiten. I can recommend a particularly good one if you can
              > deal with Japanese.
              >
              > Your Humble Servant
              > Solveig Throndardottir
              > Amateur Scholar
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lordtakeda
              Thank you. Shugo, pronounced Shoe- go ? Daimyo, pronounced Dime-yo ? Thank you fopr taking the time to assist me. -Takeda   ________________________________
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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                Thank you.

                Shugo, pronounced "Shoe- go"?
                Daimyo, pronounced "Dime-yo"?

                Thank you fopr taking the time to assist me.


                -Takeda

                 

                ________________________________
                From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
                To: "sca-jml@yahoogroups.com" <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:16 PM
                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions


                 
                As a title, "X-no-kami" is best--it refers to "The lord/ruler/head honcho
                of X".

                "Shugo" refers to the job. I would think "Shugo-sama" is an appropriate
                term for addressing a baron in general.

                "Daimyo" is not inappropriate, but it isn't necessarily a 1 for 1
                equivalent. Early daimyo ("Big Name") were also shugo, but as the central
                government's hold collapsed others became "daimyo" and held land more by
                the force of their arms and politics with their neighbors than by any
                official appointment.

                -Ii

                On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:09 AM, barontakeda@...> wrote:

                > Konnichiwa to the List,
                >
                > Two questions:
                >
                > 1. Daimyo: would this be the proper title for a Landed Baron?
                >
                > 2. What is proper way to pronounce "Daimyo"? Dime- Yo?
                >
                > Thank you,
                > Baron Takeda Yoshinaka
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... There are several possible proper titles out there. It depends upon what era (etc) you wish to recreate. Since you
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.

                  There are several possible "proper" titles out there. It depends upon what era (etc) you wish to recreate. Since you are most likely interested in the warlords of the Muromachi period, then the proper title is most likely shugo. People can, however, simply address you as "tono" or <territory> "dono" or a variety of other things.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Solveig Throndardottir
                  Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... As you noted I generally advise people who are interested in playing samurai to adopt military government titles. Shugo
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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                    Ii dono!

                    Greetings from Solveig!

                    > appointment. I believe Solveig-hime prefers "Shugo" (Solveig-hime, how
                    > would you recommend using that with a name and the various equivalencies
                    > with SCA practice?) because most people are portraying samurai--inherently
                    > military in nature.

                    As you noted I generally advise people who are interested in playing samurai to adopt military government titles. Shugo is a title and office and should be able to be slotted post-positionally just like you might slot nokami. So <territory>no shugo, <name>shugo, shugo dono ("lord baron"), &c. Simply referring to someone by title is very common in Japan so the last would be fairly common. Although you did not ask, I generally use bushou 武将 for knight and slot that as if it were a regular honorific such as <name>bushou or busho dono ("sir knight"). This is not so much a title as a description. It has the advantage of being frequently used word to describe someone as a military leader in Japanese.

                    Incidentally, I do recommend that people who are interested in the Heian period or simply want to be a courtier or have a strong imperial allegiance such as Date dono who recreates the nanbokuchou period use imperial titles or possibly even cloistered emperor appointments. Ahh Japan is delightfully complex when you scratch below the surface.

                    Following the Meiji Restoration in 1868 the Japanese adopted a whole new title system in imitation of the English and Germans and invented a whole lot of new words such as danshaku 男爵 (baron) and that sort of thing.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • JL Badgley
                    As a side note, while not really as appropriate for Japanese personas, Danshaku and other such post period titles are a great way to refer to a European
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 10, 2013
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                      As a side note, while not really as appropriate for Japanese personas,
                      "Danshaku" and other such post period titles are a great way to refer to a
                      European baron in Japanese, which is how the Japanese SCAdians I've talked
                      with use it.

                      Ii
                      On Feb 10, 2013 11:36 PM, "Solveig Throndardottir" <nostrand@...> wrote:

                      > Ii dono!
                      >
                      > Greetings from Solveig!
                      >
                      > > appointment. I believe Solveig-hime prefers "Shugo" (Solveig-hime, how
                      > > would you recommend using that with a name and the various equivalencies
                      > > with SCA practice?) because most people are portraying
                      > samurai--inherently
                      > > military in nature.
                      >
                      > As you noted I generally advise people who are interested in playing
                      > samurai to adopt military government titles. Shugo is a title and office
                      > and should be able to be slotted post-positionally just like you might slot
                      > nokami. So <territory>no shugo, <name>shugo, shugo dono ("lord baron"), &c.
                      > Simply referring to someone by title is very common in Japan so the last
                      > would be fairly common. Although you did not ask, I generally use bushou 武将
                      > for knight and slot that as if it were a regular honorific such as
                      > <name>bushou or busho dono ("sir knight"). This is not so much a title as a
                      > description. It has the advantage of being frequently used word to describe
                      > someone as a military leader in Japanese.
                      >
                      > Incidentally, I do recommend that people who are interested in the Heian
                      > period or simply want to be a courtier or have a strong imperial allegiance
                      > such as Date dono who recreates the nanbokuchou period use imperial titles
                      > or possibly even cloistered emperor appointments. Ahh Japan is delightfully
                      > complex when you scratch below the surface.
                      >
                      > Following the Meiji Restoration in 1868 the Japanese adopted a whole new
                      > title system in imitation of the English and Germans and invented a whole
                      > lot of new words such as danshaku 男爵 (baron) and that sort of thing.
                      >
                      > Your Humble Servant
                      > Solveig Throndardottir
                      > Amateur Scholar
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lordtakeda
                      Thank you. -Takeda ________________________________ From: Solveig Throndardottir To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 11, 2013
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                        Thank you.

                        -Takeda



                        ________________________________
                        From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>
                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 11:07 PM
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions


                         
                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        > So, what's the proper title? I'm confused, so sorry.

                        There are several possible "proper" titles out there. It depends upon what era (etc) you wish to recreate. Since you are most likely interested in the warlords of the Muromachi period, then the proper title is most likely shugo. People can, however, simply address you as "tono" or "dono" or a variety of other things.

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • lordtakeda
                        Shugo, pronounced Shoe- go ? Daimyo, pronounced Dime-yo ?   Not sure which term I ll use. Thank you for taking the time to assist me. -Takeda
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 11, 2013
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                          Shugo, pronounced "Shoe- go"?
                          Daimyo, pronounced "Dime-yo"?
                           
                          Not sure which term I'll use.

                          Thank you for taking the time to assist me.


                          -Takeda


                          ________________________________
                          From: JL Badgley <tatsushu@...>
                          To: "sca-jml@yahoogroups.com" <sca-jml@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:16 PM
                          Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Daimyo questions

                           
                          As a title, "X-no-kami" is best--it refers to "The lord/ruler/head honchoof X"."Shugo" refers to the job. I would think "Shugo-sama" is an appropriateterm for addressing a baron in general."Daimyo" is not inappropriate, but it isn't necessarily a 1 for 1equivalent. Early daimyo ("Big Name") were also shugo, but as the centralgovernment's hold collapsed others became "daimyo" and held land more bythe force of their arms and politics with their neighbors than by anyofficial appointment.-IiOn Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:09 AM, barontakeda@...> wrote:> Konnichiwa to the List,>> Two questions:>> 1. Daimyo: would this be the proper title for a Landed Baron?>> 2. What is proper way to pronounce "Daimyo"? Dime- Yo?>> Thank you,> Baron Takeda Yoshinaka>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>>>> ------------------------------------>> UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links>>>>[Non-text portions of this message
                          have been removed]


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solvieg! I was just thumbing through Daibukan by Hashimoto Hiroshi and ran across a notation for a provincial governor. Here the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 12, 2013
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                            Noble Cousins!

                            Greetings from Solvieg! I was just thumbing through Daibukan by Hashimoto Hiroshi and ran across a notation for a provincial governor. Here the structure appears to be: <familly name><province name>nokami<nanori> So the territorial title appears to be slotted as if it were a common use name.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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