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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: japanese name structure

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to join a household would I at that point be given a name by the household leader, or is that at their discreation? I have more questions than i know what to do with about the names and everything else with my persona. I apperciate all the help i can get.

      If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:

      <family name><yobina><nanori>

      As for joining a household or what naught. You might change your name at that point. Japanese had a propensity for changing their names.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • tiberianmagic2004
      I really hate sounding like newb about all of this, but I don t have anyone in the close area I am in that knows much about the name structuring. I have a
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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        I really hate sounding like newb about all of this, but I don't have anyone in the close area I am in that knows much about the name structuring. I have a name in mind and I just want to make sure that everything is in order. A solid walkthrough for how to choose the names that I will be using and in the correct order

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
        >
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        >
        > > I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to join a household would I at that point be given a name by the household leader, or is that at their discreation? I have more questions than i know what to do with about the names and everything else with my persona. I apperciate all the help i can get.
        >
        > If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:
        >
        > <family name><yobina><nanori>
        >
        > As for joining a household or what naught. You might change your name at that point. Japanese had a propensity for changing their names.
        >
        > Your Humble Servant
        > Solveig Throndardottir
        > Amateur Scholar
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • tiberianmagic2004
        Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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          Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
          >
          > Noble Cousin!
          >
          > Greetings from Solveig!
          >
          > > I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to join a household would I at that point be given a name by the household leader, or is that at their discreation? I have more questions than i know what to do with about the names and everything else with my persona. I apperciate all the help i can get.
          >
          > If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:
          >
          > <family name><yobina><nanori>
          >
          > As for joining a household or what naught. You might change your name at that point. Japanese had a propensity for changing their names.
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Sō Haruko
          Arigatou gozaimasu, Solveig-sensei and Saionji-sensei! --Sou (who is off to do more research, always, always, more research ...) ... Sō Haruko
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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            Arigatou gozaimasu, Solveig-sensei and Saionji-sensei!

            --Sou
            (who is off to do more research, always, always, more research ...)
            -------------------------------------------------------
            Sō Haruko
            haruko@...

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • LJonthebay
            ... Most historical personages will be referred to by surname - personal name. You don t always see the zokumyo (birth order name). Here s a men s name
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tiberianmagic2004" <tristansoucis@...> wrote:
              >
              > Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up

              Most historical personages will be referred to by surname - personal name. You don't always see the zokumyo (birth order name).

              Here's a men's name belonging to one of our list members:

              Ii (surname/myoji) Saburou (birth order name/zokumyo) Katsumori (adult personal name/nanori). Surname goes first.

              Does that help at all?

              Saionji (surname) no Hana (lowly female personal name)
              West Kingdom
            • tiberianmagic2004
              so that individual would be called by there personal name?
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                so that individual would be called by there personal name?

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "LJonthebay" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tiberianmagic2004" <tristansoucis@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up
                >
                > Most historical personages will be referred to by surname - personal name. You don't always see the zokumyo (birth order name).
                >
                > Here's a men's name belonging to one of our list members:
                >
                > Ii (surname/myoji) Saburou (birth order name/zokumyo) Katsumori (adult personal name/nanori). Surname goes first.
                >
                > Does that help at all?
                >
                > Saionji (surname) no Hana (lowly female personal name)
                > West Kingdom
                >
              • LJonthebay
                ... The convention among Japanese personae in the SCA is to address someone a bit more formally by surname with honorific. I would address him as Ii-dono (Lord
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tiberianmagic2004" <tristansoucis@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > so that individual would be called by there personal name?

                  The convention among Japanese personae in the SCA is to address someone a bit more formally by surname with honorific. I would address him as Ii-dono (Lord Ii) or even more formally as Shonagon-dono (Master Ii's a member of the Order of the Pelican). If you have a more casual relationship with someone you can certainly permit them to address you by a personal name, nickname or even diminutive form of your name (e.g., Hiro instead of Hiromasa).

                  When I was asked to serve on a royal court and realized a whole bunch of people who didn't know me very well were going to have to be able to call on me by something easy to say and remember, I told them all to call me Hana.

                  Correct name structure of something unique to you and historically plausible is important if you want to register a name with the College of Heralds. Ultimately you can call yourself anything you want.

                  Saionji no Hana
                  West Kingdom
                • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                  I ve been using the following reference for myself. If I m wrong on any of this, I d appreciate any corrections. My registered name is: Ishiyama Gen tarou
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 15, 2012
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                    I've been using the following reference for myself. If I'm wrong on
                    any of this, I'd appreciate any corrections.

                    My registered name is:

                    Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie

                    My full name with title is:

                    Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i

                    That breaks down to:

                    Ishiyama (family name - indicating "Stone Mountain" family)
                    Gen'tarou (yobina - I am the first son)
                    Yori'ie (nanori - personal name)

                    roku-i (title - essentially THL, Senior sixth rank, ordered OHM)

                    I would be called into court by:

                    Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i

                    The Honorable Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie

                    Formally, people would call me:

                    Ishiyama roku-i (Honorable Lord Ishiyama)

                    Ishiyama-dono (Lord Ishiyama)

                    Roku-i-dono (Your Lordship)

                    Sensei (Teacher, if I am teaching a class)

                    Ojousama (Milord, only by speakers of lower rank than I am)

                    Danna (Milord, only used by speakers of lower rank than I am)

                    Informally:

                    Ishiyama (friends, householders)

                    Yori'ie (close friends, householders, and family)

                    Gen'tarou (family, like calling me "brother" or "son")

                    Some Nickname

                    I'd also appreciate any additions if anybody has any. I'm curious what
                    people might use to address me specifically as a craftsman who has not
                    yet achieved master status. "Ishiyama-shokunin" seems a bit exalted.

                    --
                    THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                    (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                    ishiyama@...
                  • tiberianmagic2004
                    What references did you use for finding your name, if you understand what i mean? I just need info on how I am going to be able to document my name so it can
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
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                      What references did you use for finding your name, if you understand what i mean? I just need info on how I am going to be able to document my name so it can pass

                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I've been using the following reference for myself. If I'm wrong on
                      > any of this, I'd appreciate any corrections.
                      >
                      > My registered name is:
                      >
                      > Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                      >
                      > My full name with title is:
                      >
                      > Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i
                      >
                      > That breaks down to:
                      >
                      > Ishiyama (family name - indicating "Stone Mountain" family)
                      > Gen'tarou (yobina - I am the first son)
                      > Yori'ie (nanori - personal name)
                      >
                      > roku-i (title - essentially THL, Senior sixth rank, ordered OHM)
                      >
                      > I would be called into court by:
                      >
                      > Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i
                      >
                      > The Honorable Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                      >
                      > Formally, people would call me:
                      >
                      > Ishiyama roku-i (Honorable Lord Ishiyama)
                      >
                      > Ishiyama-dono (Lord Ishiyama)
                      >
                      > Roku-i-dono (Your Lordship)
                      >
                      > Sensei (Teacher, if I am teaching a class)
                      >
                      > Ojousama (Milord, only by speakers of lower rank than I am)
                      >
                      > Danna (Milord, only used by speakers of lower rank than I am)
                      >
                      > Informally:
                      >
                      > Ishiyama (friends, householders)
                      >
                      > Yori'ie (close friends, householders, and family)
                      >
                      > Gen'tarou (family, like calling me "brother" or "son")
                      >
                      > Some Nickname
                      >
                      > I'd also appreciate any additions if anybody has any. I'm curious what
                      > people might use to address me specifically as a craftsman who has not
                      > yet achieved master status. "Ishiyama-shokunin" seems a bit exalted.
                      >
                      > --
                      > THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                      > (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                      > ishiyama@...
                      >
                    • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                      ... I did not pick a name first and then start researching. I used the SengokuDaimyo web site as a reference to choose a name, and the Naming Conventions in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
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                        tiberianmagic2004 wrote:
                        > What references did you use for finding your name, if you understand
                        > what i mean? I just need info on how I am going to be able to
                        > document my name so it can pass

                        I did not pick a name first and then start researching. I used the SengokuDaimyo web site as a reference to choose a name, and the Naming Conventions in Medieval Japan book to refine and document it. If you pick your name from a list of names that has already been researched, you will have far fewer problems.

                        The household I am in camps at Pennsic with the same group as Lady Solveig, and she was kind enough to help me utilize the NCMJ and fill out my submission forms.

                        It still took about a year for the paperwork to be processed by the perennially overworked volunteers in the College of Heralds, but there were no difficulties.

                        --
                        The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                        (m.k.a. Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
                        ishiyama@...
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