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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: japanese name structure

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... I found out recently that the College of Arms does not accept citations from sengokudaimyo as documentation. This may
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 13, 2012
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > Have you been here yet? http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html has a good overview with some examples and a decent list of name elements for men's names.

      I found out recently that the College of Arms does not accept citations from sengokudaimyo as documentation. This may change, but that appears to be the current situation. Generally speaking, the College of Arms does not accept WEB pages as documentation. The exceptions are primarily name articles linked to from the College of Arms web page and Academy of St. Gabriel reports.

      > The definitive source used by the SCA College Heralds is "Name Construction In Medieval Japan." Runs approximately $40 from Potboiler Press. http://potboilerpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=25


      A regional herald near you may own a copy of NCMJ. Also the Library of Congress two university libraries in North Carolina and the Bavarian State Library have copies.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • hexslinger
      Sumimasen, Solveig-sensei, for taking the conversation slightly off-track, but I recently had a question come up. I am considering moving my persona
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 13, 2012
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        Sumimasen, Solveig-sensei, for taking the conversation slightly off-track, but I recently had a question come up. I am considering moving my persona later-period, possibly with a Christian conversion.

        If I were to do that, would the Christian name be appended to my nanori, or replace it entirely?

        --Sou

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
        >
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        >
        > > Have you been here yet? http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html has a good overview with some examples and a decent list of name elements for men's names.
        >
        > I found out recently that the College of Arms does not accept citations from sengokudaimyo as documentation. This may change, but that appears to be the current situation. Generally speaking, the College of Arms does not accept WEB pages as documentation. The exceptions are primarily name articles linked to from the College of Arms web page and Academy of St. Gabriel reports.
        >
        > > The definitive source used by the SCA College Heralds is "Name Construction In Medieval Japan." Runs approximately $40 from Potboiler Press. http://potboilerpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=25
        >
        >
        > A regional herald near you may own a copy of NCMJ. Also the Library of Congress two university libraries in North Carolina and the Bavarian State Library have copies.
        >
        > Your Humble Servant
        > Solveig Throndardottir
        > Amateur Scholar
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • tiberianmagic2004
        I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 13, 2012
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          I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to join a household would I at that point be given a name by the household leader, or is that at their discreation? I have more questions than i know what to do with about the names and everything else with my persona. I apperciate all the help i can get.

          Yoshi

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "LJonthebay" <wodeford@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tiberianmagic2004" <erideck_2000@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I was wondering if anyone had any insight into Japanese name structure in the SCA,.
          > >
          >
          > Have you been here yet? http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html has a good overview with some examples and a decent list of name elements for men's names.
          >
          > The definitive source used by the SCA College Heralds is "Name Construction In Medieval Japan." Runs approximately $40 from Potboiler Press. http://potboilerpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=25
          >
          > And of course, if you narrow your question down, folks here can probably help you.
          >
          > Saionji Shonagon
          > West Kingdom
          >
        • LJonthebay
          ... Konnichiwa, Sou-hime. Good question. The namban missionaries would refer to you by your new baptismal name, for certain. Whether Japanese natives would do
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 13, 2012
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "hexslinger" <haruko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sumimasen, Solveig-sensei, for taking the conversation slightly off-track, but I recently had a question come up. I am considering moving my persona later-period, possibly with a Christian conversion.
            >
            > If I were to do that, would the Christian name be appended to my nanori, or replace it entirely?

            Konnichiwa, Sou-hime.

            Good question. The namban missionaries would refer to you by your new baptismal name, for certain. Whether Japanese natives would do so or continue to think of you by your nanori, I don't know.

            If you need examples, Hosokawa Gracia is a fairly well known female convert.

            Saionji Shonagon
            West Kingdom
          • Solveig Throndardottir
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! A baptismal name is just another name in religion. You just add it to the other names. At least that is my understanding.
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig! A baptismal name is just another name in religion. You just add it to the other names. At least that is my understanding.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                > I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to join a household would I at that point be given a name by the household leader, or is that at their discreation? I have more questions than i know what to do with about the names and everything else with my persona. I apperciate all the help i can get.

                If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:

                <family name><yobina><nanori>

                As for joining a household or what naught. You might change your name at that point. Japanese had a propensity for changing their names.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • tiberianmagic2004
                I really hate sounding like newb about all of this, but I don t have anyone in the close area I am in that knows much about the name structuring. I have a
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                  I really hate sounding like newb about all of this, but I don't have anyone in the close area I am in that knows much about the name structuring. I have a name in mind and I just want to make sure that everything is in order. A solid walkthrough for how to choose the names that I will be using and in the correct order

                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Noble Cousin!
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig!
                  >
                  > > I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to join a household would I at that point be given a name by the household leader, or is that at their discreation? I have more questions than i know what to do with about the names and everything else with my persona. I apperciate all the help i can get.
                  >
                  > If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:
                  >
                  > <family name><yobina><nanori>
                  >
                  > As for joining a household or what naught. You might change your name at that point. Japanese had a propensity for changing their names.
                  >
                  > Your Humble Servant
                  > Solveig Throndardottir
                  > Amateur Scholar
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • tiberianmagic2004
                  Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                    Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up

                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Noble Cousin!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig!
                    >
                    > > I understand the structure of the names themselves, but with having a ronin persona, would it be appropriate for me to not have a surname? Also if I were to join a household would I at that point be given a name by the household leader, or is that at their discreation? I have more questions than i know what to do with about the names and everything else with my persona. I apperciate all the help i can get.
                    >
                    > If you are a male member of the buke (military class) then you should have three names:
                    >
                    > <family name><yobina><nanori>
                    >
                    > As for joining a household or what naught. You might change your name at that point. Japanese had a propensity for changing their names.
                    >
                    > Your Humble Servant
                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                    > Amateur Scholar
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Sō Haruko
                    Arigatou gozaimasu, Solveig-sensei and Saionji-sensei! --Sou (who is off to do more research, always, always, more research ...) ... Sō Haruko
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                      Arigatou gozaimasu, Solveig-sensei and Saionji-sensei!

                      --Sou
                      (who is off to do more research, always, always, more research ...)
                      -------------------------------------------------------
                      Sō Haruko
                      haruko@...

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • LJonthebay
                      ... Most historical personages will be referred to by surname - personal name. You don t always see the zokumyo (birth order name). Here s a men s name
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tiberianmagic2004" <tristansoucis@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up

                        Most historical personages will be referred to by surname - personal name. You don't always see the zokumyo (birth order name).

                        Here's a men's name belonging to one of our list members:

                        Ii (surname/myoji) Saburou (birth order name/zokumyo) Katsumori (adult personal name/nanori). Surname goes first.

                        Does that help at all?

                        Saionji (surname) no Hana (lowly female personal name)
                        West Kingdom
                      • tiberianmagic2004
                        so that individual would be called by there personal name?
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                          so that individual would be called by there personal name?

                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "LJonthebay" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tiberianmagic2004" <tristansoucis@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Basically an example of a name from the past split into different sections would be a great way for me to understand how I should fully set this up
                          >
                          > Most historical personages will be referred to by surname - personal name. You don't always see the zokumyo (birth order name).
                          >
                          > Here's a men's name belonging to one of our list members:
                          >
                          > Ii (surname/myoji) Saburou (birth order name/zokumyo) Katsumori (adult personal name/nanori). Surname goes first.
                          >
                          > Does that help at all?
                          >
                          > Saionji (surname) no Hana (lowly female personal name)
                          > West Kingdom
                          >
                        • LJonthebay
                          ... The convention among Japanese personae in the SCA is to address someone a bit more formally by surname with honorific. I would address him as Ii-dono (Lord
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "tiberianmagic2004" <tristansoucis@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > so that individual would be called by there personal name?

                            The convention among Japanese personae in the SCA is to address someone a bit more formally by surname with honorific. I would address him as Ii-dono (Lord Ii) or even more formally as Shonagon-dono (Master Ii's a member of the Order of the Pelican). If you have a more casual relationship with someone you can certainly permit them to address you by a personal name, nickname or even diminutive form of your name (e.g., Hiro instead of Hiromasa).

                            When I was asked to serve on a royal court and realized a whole bunch of people who didn't know me very well were going to have to be able to call on me by something easy to say and remember, I told them all to call me Hana.

                            Correct name structure of something unique to you and historically plausible is important if you want to register a name with the College of Heralds. Ultimately you can call yourself anything you want.

                            Saionji no Hana
                            West Kingdom
                          • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                            I ve been using the following reference for myself. If I m wrong on any of this, I d appreciate any corrections. My registered name is: Ishiyama Gen tarou
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 15, 2012
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                              I've been using the following reference for myself. If I'm wrong on
                              any of this, I'd appreciate any corrections.

                              My registered name is:

                              Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie

                              My full name with title is:

                              Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i

                              That breaks down to:

                              Ishiyama (family name - indicating "Stone Mountain" family)
                              Gen'tarou (yobina - I am the first son)
                              Yori'ie (nanori - personal name)

                              roku-i (title - essentially THL, Senior sixth rank, ordered OHM)

                              I would be called into court by:

                              Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i

                              The Honorable Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie

                              Formally, people would call me:

                              Ishiyama roku-i (Honorable Lord Ishiyama)

                              Ishiyama-dono (Lord Ishiyama)

                              Roku-i-dono (Your Lordship)

                              Sensei (Teacher, if I am teaching a class)

                              Ojousama (Milord, only by speakers of lower rank than I am)

                              Danna (Milord, only used by speakers of lower rank than I am)

                              Informally:

                              Ishiyama (friends, householders)

                              Yori'ie (close friends, householders, and family)

                              Gen'tarou (family, like calling me "brother" or "son")

                              Some Nickname

                              I'd also appreciate any additions if anybody has any. I'm curious what
                              people might use to address me specifically as a craftsman who has not
                              yet achieved master status. "Ishiyama-shokunin" seems a bit exalted.

                              --
                              THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                              (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                              ishiyama@...
                            • tiberianmagic2004
                              What references did you use for finding your name, if you understand what i mean? I just need info on how I am going to be able to document my name so it can
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
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                                What references did you use for finding your name, if you understand what i mean? I just need info on how I am going to be able to document my name so it can pass

                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > I've been using the following reference for myself. If I'm wrong on
                                > any of this, I'd appreciate any corrections.
                                >
                                > My registered name is:
                                >
                                > Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                                >
                                > My full name with title is:
                                >
                                > Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i
                                >
                                > That breaks down to:
                                >
                                > Ishiyama (family name - indicating "Stone Mountain" family)
                                > Gen'tarou (yobina - I am the first son)
                                > Yori'ie (nanori - personal name)
                                >
                                > roku-i (title - essentially THL, Senior sixth rank, ordered OHM)
                                >
                                > I would be called into court by:
                                >
                                > Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie roku-i
                                >
                                > The Honorable Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                                >
                                > Formally, people would call me:
                                >
                                > Ishiyama roku-i (Honorable Lord Ishiyama)
                                >
                                > Ishiyama-dono (Lord Ishiyama)
                                >
                                > Roku-i-dono (Your Lordship)
                                >
                                > Sensei (Teacher, if I am teaching a class)
                                >
                                > Ojousama (Milord, only by speakers of lower rank than I am)
                                >
                                > Danna (Milord, only used by speakers of lower rank than I am)
                                >
                                > Informally:
                                >
                                > Ishiyama (friends, householders)
                                >
                                > Yori'ie (close friends, householders, and family)
                                >
                                > Gen'tarou (family, like calling me "brother" or "son")
                                >
                                > Some Nickname
                                >
                                > I'd also appreciate any additions if anybody has any. I'm curious what
                                > people might use to address me specifically as a craftsman who has not
                                > yet achieved master status. "Ishiyama-shokunin" seems a bit exalted.
                                >
                                > --
                                > THL Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                                > (mka: Elliott C. Evans)
                                > ishiyama@...
                                >
                              • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                                ... I did not pick a name first and then start researching. I used the SengokuDaimyo web site as a reference to choose a name, and the Naming Conventions in
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 20, 2012
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                                  tiberianmagic2004 wrote:
                                  > What references did you use for finding your name, if you understand
                                  > what i mean? I just need info on how I am going to be able to
                                  > document my name so it can pass

                                  I did not pick a name first and then start researching. I used the SengokuDaimyo web site as a reference to choose a name, and the Naming Conventions in Medieval Japan book to refine and document it. If you pick your name from a list of names that has already been researched, you will have far fewer problems.

                                  The household I am in camps at Pennsic with the same group as Lady Solveig, and she was kind enough to help me utilize the NCMJ and fill out my submission forms.

                                  It still took about a year for the paperwork to be processed by the perennially overworked volunteers in the College of Heralds, but there were no difficulties.

                                  --
                                  The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                                  (m.k.a. Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
                                  ishiyama@...
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