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Re: [SCA-JML] gores and gussets

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  • Solveig Throndardottir
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... There are patterns for hakama in the Nuikata book. Unfortunately, my copy is lent out at the moment. Maybe someone
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 3, 2012
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      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      > Does anyone have any evidence for how the two legs of hakama were joined
      > together, or are we all still making a best guess?

      There are patterns for hakama in the Nuikata book. Unfortunately, my copy is lent out at the moment. Maybe someone else will notice your enquiry.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ellen Badgley
      Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink* All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very clear square gusset a la
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 3, 2012
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        Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink*

        All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very
        clear square gusset a la Hiraizumi-dono's (Tony's) pattern. However, the
        earlier Nara-period reproductions (from Shoso-in examples) tend to be
        different, and at least one of those (an "undergarment") has the 3-4 inch
        "strip" at the crotch, similar to the one photographed in Honcho-Gunkiko.
        (In Nuikata, the same kanji is used for this crotch-piece as for the
        gusset in the other cases.)

        So, in summary, they're both period approaches, it appears.

        - Abe Akirakeiko

        On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Noble Cousin!
        >
        > Greetings from Solveig!
        >
        > > Does anyone have any evidence for how the two legs of hakama were joined
        > > together, or are we all still making a best guess?
        >
        > There are patterns for hakama in the Nuikata book. Unfortunately, my copy
        > is lent out at the moment. Maybe someone else will notice your enquiry.
        >
        > Your Humble Servant
        > Solveig Throndardottir
        > Amateur Scholar
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tupan4
        Abe-dono, where does the rectangular gusset go? Is it like where you d measure rise or is it 90 degrees opposite? Can someone post a link to a picture? Partly
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 4, 2012
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          Abe-dono, where does the rectangular gusset go? Is it like where you'd measure rise or is it 90 degrees opposite?

          Can someone post a link to a picture?

          Partly I'm curious because I know Lady Roxanne's hakama pattern includes a strip that goes ankle to ankle along the inseam. I don't know whether that's based on historical research or on making a nice looking pair of pants. (It does work out nicely.) http://www.yamakaminari.com/HowTo/RoxannesGarb/RoxanneHakama4Pennsic.pdf

          Thanks!

          ERIN

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink*
          >
          > All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very
          > clear square gusset a la Hiraizumi-dono's (Tony's) pattern. However, the
          > earlier Nara-period reproductions (from Shoso-in examples) tend to be
          > different, and at least one of those (an "undergarment") has the 3-4 inch
          > "strip" at the crotch, similar to the one photographed in Honcho-Gunkiko.
          > (In Nuikata, the same kanji is used for this crotch-piece as for the
          > gusset in the other cases.)
          >
          > So, in summary, they're both period approaches, it appears.
          >
          > - Abe Akirakeiko
          >
        • Ellen Badgley
          The particular rectangular gusset in this case is where you d measure rise. For a parallel illustration, check out the *uwabakama *at
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 4, 2012
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            The particular rectangular gusset in this case is where you'd measure rise.
            For a parallel illustration, check out the *uwabakama *at
            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/uwabakama1L.jpg.
            These are the topmost set of *hakama *accompanying court garb, and they
            are actually constructed of two entirely separate leg-tubes, with a
            completely "loose" strip of fabric hanging between (from mid-front to
            mid-back of the waist) to conceal the gap between the leg-tubes. This
            sounds extreme (and exposed!) but whenever these are worn the *ho *(outer
            robe) would hang down to the knees or past, plenty far enough to provide
            coverage. The example from *Honcho-Gunkiko *is analogous: the strip is far
            more attached, but the hakama would still have been worn under armor.

            Ii-dono and I were talking about it last night and it's our impression that
            wherever this "crotch-strip" (following the rise) shows up, it is to
            strengthen/reinforce/cover an actual gap in the crotch (presumably for
            convenience of access to, ahem, sanitary facilities). Hakama to be worn
            outermost or visible tend to have the square gusset instead (if they have a
            gusset at all), and show no or little clear gap between the legs if someone
            is standing straight-legged.

            (We've constructed hakama which end up resembling Lady Roxanne's, although
            the method used to join the leg-tubes is different. I would also caution
            that contrary to the wearing instructions, experience has shown it is far
            better to tie the front ties before the back ties-- again, for easy access
            if one has to use the restroom.)

            - Abe

            On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 1:08 PM, tupan4 <tupan4@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Abe-dono, where does the rectangular gusset go? Is it like where you'd
            > measure rise or is it 90 degrees opposite?
            >
            > Can someone post a link to a picture?
            >
            > Partly I'm curious because I know Lady Roxanne's hakama pattern includes a
            > strip that goes ankle to ankle along the inseam. I don't know whether
            > that's based on historical research or on making a nice looking pair of
            > pants. (It does work out nicely.)
            > http://www.yamakaminari.com/HowTo/RoxannesGarb/RoxanneHakama4Pennsic.pdf
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > ERIN
            >
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink*
            > >
            > > All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very
            >
            > > clear square gusset a la Hiraizumi-dono's (Tony's) pattern. However, the
            > > earlier Nara-period reproductions (from Shoso-in examples) tend to be
            > > different, and at least one of those (an "undergarment") has the 3-4 inch
            > > "strip" at the crotch, similar to the one photographed in Honcho-Gunkiko.
            > > (In Nuikata, the same kanji is used for this crotch-piece as for the
            > > gusset in the other cases.)
            > >
            > > So, in summary, they're both period approaches, it appears.
            > >
            > > - Abe Akirakeiko
            > >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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