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gores and gussets

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  • Dean Wayland
    Greetings All, Hopefully someone here can help me settle a discussion that I am having about the use of gussets in the making of hakama. Did the Japanese use
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 3, 2012
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      Greetings All,



      Hopefully someone here can help me settle a discussion that I am having
      about the use of gussets in the making of hakama.



      Did the Japanese use gores (triangles) and gussets (squares and diamonds) as
      in western clothes making?



      The only real examples of something similar that I have seen were a crotch
      panel between the legs of a couple of pairs of period hakama that I was
      lucky enough to examine in a museum and a private collection . In both cases
      this was a piece of fabric about 3 to 4 inches wide and long enough to go
      from the centre back to the centre of the front at the waist, passing
      beneath the groin. In one case it was sewn on both sides, thus sealing the
      hakama, while the other had two such panels that overlapped each other and
      were held closed by a button at the centre bottom. This latter pair were
      kobakama and as I understand it, were supposedly intended for use by a
      warrior in armour, allowing him to relieve himself without taking his kit
      off.



      Apart from manuscript evidence, the only other images I have that show the
      crotch panel in a pair of hakama, is in "The Armour Book In HONCHO GUNKIKO"
      edited by H. R. Russell Robinson, Plate XXIX between pages 104 and 105.
      However it is unclear if these are of the closed or open style with
      overlapping panels.



      In the files section Tony (Effingham) has an old pattern for hakama with a
      square/diamond shaped gusset at the crotch, this is what my opponent is
      arguing in favour of. But apart from that pattern and others on the web,
      which look like they have copied his, I can find no evidence for this
      arrangement.



      To date we have been making all our hakama with this straight narrow insert
      between the legs. It normally is hidden behind folds, and the garments lay
      absolutely flat when folded, something the one pair we have with a gusset in
      doesn't.



      Does anyone have any evidence for how the two legs of hakama were joined
      together, or are we all still making a best guess?



      All the best



      Dean



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... There are patterns for hakama in the Nuikata book. Unfortunately, my copy is lent out at the moment. Maybe someone
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 3, 2012
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > Does anyone have any evidence for how the two legs of hakama were joined
        > together, or are we all still making a best guess?

        There are patterns for hakama in the Nuikata book. Unfortunately, my copy is lent out at the moment. Maybe someone else will notice your enquiry.

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ellen Badgley
        Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink* All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very clear square gusset a la
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 3, 2012
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          Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink*

          All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very
          clear square gusset a la Hiraizumi-dono's (Tony's) pattern. However, the
          earlier Nara-period reproductions (from Shoso-in examples) tend to be
          different, and at least one of those (an "undergarment") has the 3-4 inch
          "strip" at the crotch, similar to the one photographed in Honcho-Gunkiko.
          (In Nuikata, the same kanji is used for this crotch-piece as for the
          gusset in the other cases.)

          So, in summary, they're both period approaches, it appears.

          - Abe Akirakeiko

          On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 5:11 PM, Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand@...>wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Noble Cousin!
          >
          > Greetings from Solveig!
          >
          > > Does anyone have any evidence for how the two legs of hakama were joined
          > > together, or are we all still making a best guess?
          >
          > There are patterns for hakama in the Nuikata book. Unfortunately, my copy
          > is lent out at the moment. Maybe someone else will notice your enquiry.
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tupan4
          Abe-dono, where does the rectangular gusset go? Is it like where you d measure rise or is it 90 degrees opposite? Can someone post a link to a picture? Partly
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 4, 2012
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            Abe-dono, where does the rectangular gusset go? Is it like where you'd measure rise or is it 90 degrees opposite?

            Can someone post a link to a picture?

            Partly I'm curious because I know Lady Roxanne's hakama pattern includes a strip that goes ankle to ankle along the inseam. I don't know whether that's based on historical research or on making a nice looking pair of pants. (It does work out nicely.) http://www.yamakaminari.com/HowTo/RoxannesGarb/RoxanneHakama4Pennsic.pdf

            Thanks!

            ERIN

            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink*
            >
            > All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very
            > clear square gusset a la Hiraizumi-dono's (Tony's) pattern. However, the
            > earlier Nara-period reproductions (from Shoso-in examples) tend to be
            > different, and at least one of those (an "undergarment") has the 3-4 inch
            > "strip" at the crotch, similar to the one photographed in Honcho-Gunkiko.
            > (In Nuikata, the same kanji is used for this crotch-piece as for the
            > gusset in the other cases.)
            >
            > So, in summary, they're both period approaches, it appears.
            >
            > - Abe Akirakeiko
            >
          • Ellen Badgley
            The particular rectangular gusset in this case is where you d measure rise. For a parallel illustration, check out the *uwabakama *at
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 4, 2012
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              The particular rectangular gusset in this case is where you'd measure rise.
              For a parallel illustration, check out the *uwabakama *at
              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/uwabakama1L.jpg.
              These are the topmost set of *hakama *accompanying court garb, and they
              are actually constructed of two entirely separate leg-tubes, with a
              completely "loose" strip of fabric hanging between (from mid-front to
              mid-back of the waist) to conceal the gap between the leg-tubes. This
              sounds extreme (and exposed!) but whenever these are worn the *ho *(outer
              robe) would hang down to the knees or past, plenty far enough to provide
              coverage. The example from *Honcho-Gunkiko *is analogous: the strip is far
              more attached, but the hakama would still have been worn under armor.

              Ii-dono and I were talking about it last night and it's our impression that
              wherever this "crotch-strip" (following the rise) shows up, it is to
              strengthen/reinforce/cover an actual gap in the crotch (presumably for
              convenience of access to, ahem, sanitary facilities). Hakama to be worn
              outermost or visible tend to have the square gusset instead (if they have a
              gusset at all), and show no or little clear gap between the legs if someone
              is standing straight-legged.

              (We've constructed hakama which end up resembling Lady Roxanne's, although
              the method used to join the leg-tubes is different. I would also caution
              that contrary to the wearing instructions, experience has shown it is far
              better to tie the front ties before the back ties-- again, for easy access
              if one has to use the restroom.)

              - Abe

              On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 1:08 PM, tupan4 <tupan4@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Abe-dono, where does the rectangular gusset go? Is it like where you'd
              > measure rise or is it 90 degrees opposite?
              >
              > Can someone post a link to a picture?
              >
              > Partly I'm curious because I know Lady Roxanne's hakama pattern includes a
              > strip that goes ankle to ankle along the inseam. I don't know whether
              > that's based on historical research or on making a nice looking pair of
              > pants. (It does work out nicely.)
              > http://www.yamakaminari.com/HowTo/RoxannesGarb/RoxanneHakama4Pennsic.pdf
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
              > ERIN
              >
              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ellen Badgley <flyingrat42@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Yoinking *Jidai isshou no nuikata* off the shelf... *yoink*
              > >
              > > All of the Heian-and-later pleated *hakama *and *sashinuki *have a very
              >
              > > clear square gusset a la Hiraizumi-dono's (Tony's) pattern. However, the
              > > earlier Nara-period reproductions (from Shoso-in examples) tend to be
              > > different, and at least one of those (an "undergarment") has the 3-4 inch
              > > "strip" at the crotch, similar to the one photographed in Honcho-Gunkiko.
              > > (In Nuikata, the same kanji is used for this crotch-piece as for the
              > > gusset in the other cases.)
              > >
              > > So, in summary, they're both period approaches, it appears.
              > >
              > > - Abe Akirakeiko
              > >
              >
              >
              >


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