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RE: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?

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  • Eileen Young
    Is the hat in the picture a man s hat or a hat that everyone wore? Eileen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
      Is the hat in the picture a man's hat or a hat that everyone wore?
      Eileen

      > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      > From: ishiyama@...
      > Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:00:50 -0500
      > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?
      >

      >
      > Here's a picture of me wearing some raised hakama and kyahan -
      >
      > http://www.ee0r.com/proj/images/jgarb-pennsic36.jpg
      >
      > Though mine aren't as full as those worn in the picture.
      >
      > --
      > The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
      > (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
      > ishiyama@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Pia Lampert
      Heya, thanks for your answers. So it is a Hakama hmmm.  @Ishiyama How come that your Hakama aren t as full as the ones in the picture? What makes the
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
        Heya,

        thanks for your answers. So it is a Hakama hmmm. 

        @Ishiyama

        How come that your Hakama aren't as full as the ones in the picture?
        What makes the differences?Cloth? The way he tied up his Hakama?

        I am having a hard time trying to imagine how it works. Are there any pictures
        or tutorials on how to do it? Where does the cord end and is it hidden? So many questions =).


        ________________________________
        Von: Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...>
        An: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Gesendet: 16:00 Freitag, 23.März 2012
        Betreff: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?


         
        Saionji Shonagon wrote:
        > He's wearing hakama with kyahan (also sometimes spelled kiahan)
        > wrapped around his lower legs.

        I agree that they are hakama. They may also be drawn up and tied
        just below the knee. I've done that myself, and it keeps the hakama
        up out of the dust and mud while walking out in the world.

        I tend to do it by running a cord through the hakama hem, but I
        have seen pictures of garments that use "buttonholes" or "belt
        loops" around the hem through which the cord is threaded. I have
        also seen pictures of garments that have been simply bunched up
        and tied in place.

        Here's a picture of me wearing some raised hakama and kyahan -

        http://www.ee0r.com/proj/images/jgarb-pennsic36.jpg

        Though mine aren't as full as those worn in the picture.

        --
        The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
        (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
        ishiyama@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Looking at the picture, it is possible that the hakama are simply hitched up. That would account for the fullness. Your
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig! Looking at the picture, it is possible that the hakama are simply hitched up. That would account for the fullness.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
          ... The hat is a sando gasa , and is appropriate for townfolk and travellers, though I would actually be hard pressed to document it as truly period for
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
            Eileen Young wrote:
            > Is the hat in the picture a man's hat or a hat that everyone wore?

            The hat is a "sando gasa", and is appropriate for townfolk and
            travellers, though I would actually be hard pressed to document it
            as truly period for either gender.

            In the SCA, it is commonly worn by both men and women. It is most
            notable for being an actual Japanese hat, similar enough to
            documentable headwear to pass, and actually can be bought in North
            America (overseas shipping adds up, even on light items).

            Pia Lampert wrote:
            > How come that your Hakama aren't as full as the ones in the picture?
            > What makes the differences? Cloth? The way he tied up his Hakama?

            Logically speaking, clothing fullness is a function of wealth. That
            photo was taken at Pennsic, and I am dressed extremely informally
            as a commoner due to warm weather. He is obviously a highly-paid,
            skilled swordsman.

            Mechanically speaking, the hakama I am wearing in that picture only
            use three panels per leg (2 in front, 1 in back), and the panels are
            somewhat narrow. He probably has four panels per leg, and the panels
            look pretty wide. Period looms are anywhere from 14 to 16 inches wide.
            My panels might have been cut from 54" fabric, giving me 13.5 inch
            panels.

            Here's a museum picture showing a lower-class peddler -

            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/26.htm

            Here's a picture showing a warrior -

            http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/15.htm

            > I am having a hard time trying to imagine how it works. Are there
            > any pictures or tutorials on how to do it? Where does the cord end
            > and is it hidden? So many questions =).

            For the blue hakama in my picture, I simply used the hem as a casing
            and ran a cord through it all the way around the leg opening. The
            cord enters and leaves at the outside seam. The cord is about two
            feet longer than the total circumference of the opening, so the legs
            can be completely opened and hang straight down.

            To use, I simply cross the cords and pull them tight, just like the
            top of a drawstring bag, position the gathers just below my knee,
            and tie the cords. Because of the amount of fabric, this is
            sometimes not as "simple" as I say, and takes some adjusting. You
            can imagine gathering the fabric by hand and tying it in place with
            a cord, but you might need somebody to help you with that. Some
            people tell me that instead of a separate cord, you can tie the
            gathered fabric in place with the kyahan, but I don't trust that to
            hold, and have never tried it.

            Whatever method you use, it's hidden no matter what because the
            fabric blouses out and down, covering whatever you do.

            --
            The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
            (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
            ishiyama@...
          • Pia Lampert
            Ah ok now I see clearer =). Thanks to all and for the description. As soon as I get another Hakama I will try it myself.  Pia ________________________________
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 24, 2012
              Ah ok now I see clearer =). Thanks to all and for the description.
              As soon as I get another Hakama I will try it myself. 


              Pia


              ________________________________
              Von: Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...>
              An: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Gesendet: 22:48 Freitag, 23.März 2012
              Betreff: Re: [SCA-JML] Could someone help me identify these "pants"?


               
              Eileen Young wrote:
              > Is the hat in the picture a man's hat or a hat that everyone wore?

              The hat is a "sando gasa", and is appropriate for townfolk and
              travellers, though I would actually be hard pressed to document it
              as truly period for either gender.

              In the SCA, it is commonly worn by both men and women. It is most
              notable for being an actual Japanese hat, similar enough to
              documentable headwear to pass, and actually can be bought in North
              America (overseas shipping adds up, even on light items).

              Pia Lampert wrote:
              > How come that your Hakama aren't as full as the ones in the picture?
              > What makes the differences? Cloth? The way he tied up his Hakama?

              Logically speaking, clothing fullness is a function of wealth. That
              photo was taken at Pennsic, and I am dressed extremely informally
              as a commoner due to warm weather. He is obviously a highly-paid,
              skilled swordsman.

              Mechanically speaking, the hakama I am wearing in that picture only
              use three panels per leg (2 in front, 1 in back), and the panels are
              somewhat narrow. He probably has four panels per leg, and the panels
              look pretty wide. Period looms are anywhere from 14 to 16 inches wide.
              My panels might have been cut from 54" fabric, giving me 13.5 inch
              panels.

              Here's a museum picture showing a lower-class peddler -

              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/26.htm

              Here's a picture showing a warrior -

              http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/15.htm

              > I am having a hard time trying to imagine how it works. Are there
              > any pictures or tutorials on how to do it? Where does the cord end
              > and is it hidden? So many questions =).

              For the blue hakama in my picture, I simply used the hem as a casing
              and ran a cord through it all the way around the leg opening. The
              cord enters and leaves at the outside seam. The cord is about two
              feet longer than the total circumference of the opening, so the legs
              can be completely opened and hang straight down.

              To use, I simply cross the cords and pull them tight, just like the
              top of a drawstring bag, position the gathers just below my knee,
              and tie the cords. Because of the amount of fabric, this is
              sometimes not as "simple" as I say, and takes some adjusting. You
              can imagine gathering the fabric by hand and tying it in place with
              a cord, but you might need somebody to help you with that. Some
              people tell me that instead of a separate cord, you can tie the
              gathered fabric in place with the kyahan, but I don't trust that to
              hold, and have never tried it.

              Whatever method you use, it's hidden no matter what because the
              fabric blouses out and down, covering whatever you do.

              --
              The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
              (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
              ishiyama@...



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jess
              It s funny that you mention those hakama, the movie those pictures are from is Red Sun with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. When I was making my husband s
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
                It's funny that you mention those hakama, the movie those pictures are from is Red Sun with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. When I was making my husband's first set of Japanese garb he said he wanted pants like the ones Mifune wore in Red Sun. I searched the web, and every Japanese clothing book I could find, trying to figure out what kind of pants those were. I watched the movie several times, fast-forwarding to any scene where I could clearly see the pants and found a brief snippet of a scene that answered the question. They are normal hakama that he hitches up at the sides and tucks into his obi making them look like short, baggy, hakama. As soon as I read your subject line that movie popped into my head and I chuckled when I saw the pictures.

                Sanada Katsumi
              • Pia Lampert
                Heh, yeah same here. I stumbled across the movie and liked it at once. When I saw his pants I wanted to have them, but like you I had problems to figure out
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
                  Heh, yeah same here. I stumbled across the movie and liked it at once. When I saw his "pants" I wanted to have them, but like you I had problems to figure out what kind of pants Mifune is wearing.  Good to know that there are people out here with so much knowledge =)

                  But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going to do that as well. it looks really stylish. 

                  Amaya



                  ________________________________
                  Von: Jess <slaoen@...>
                  An: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  Gesendet: 15:46 Montag, 26.März 2012
                  Betreff: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?


                   
                  It's funny that you mention those hakama, the movie those pictures are from is Red Sun with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. When I was making my husband's first set of Japanese garb he said he wanted pants like the ones Mifune wore in Red Sun. I searched the web, and every Japanese clothing book I could find, trying to figure out what kind of pants those were. I watched the movie several times, fast-forwarding to any scene where I could clearly see the pants and found a brief snippet of a scene that answered the question. They are normal hakama that he hitches up at the sides and tucks into his obi making them look like short, baggy, hakama. As soon as I read your subject line that movie popped into my head and I chuckled when I saw the pictures.

                  Sanada Katsumi




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • LJonthebay
                  ... You don t. The obi goes on underneath. Yes, really. Saionji Shonagon West Kingdom
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Pia Lampert <ti1816@...> wrote:
                    > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi?

                    You don't. The obi goes on underneath. Yes, really.

                    Saionji Shonagon
                    West Kingdom
                  • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                    ... I don t do this myself, but some people swear by it in hot weather. Just reach down in through the side openings of the hakama, grab the bottom hem, pull
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
                      Pia Lampert wrote:
                      > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going
                      > to do that as well. it looks really stylish. 

                      I don't do this myself, but some people swear by it in hot weather. Just reach down in through the side openings of the hakama, grab the bottom hem, pull it up, and tuck a corner of it up between the obi (or the hakama himo if you're not wearing an obi) and kosode.

                      I guess you could do this at multiple points to even it out, but most people seem to do it just at either side.
                      --
                      The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                      (m.k.a. Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
                      ishiyama@...
                    • David Holt
                      For a shortening of the legs somewhere between full length and pulling the bottom hem up to the belt, you can also grab the lowest point of the side cuts and
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 27, 2012
                        For a shortening of the legs somewhere between full length and pulling the bottom hem up to the belt, you can also grab the lowest point of the side cuts and pull it up through the obi/himo. Both of the people in the foreground of this picture have done it: http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t303/jdmcowan/?action=view¤t=DSCF2833.jpg

                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        From: ishiyama@...
                        Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:58:30 -0400
                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?




























                        Pia Lampert wrote:

                        > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going

                        > to do that as well. it looks really stylish.



                        I don't do this myself, but some people swear by it in hot weather. Just reach down in through the side openings of the hakama, grab the bottom hem, pull it up, and tuck a corner of it up between the obi (or the hakama himo if you're not wearing an obi) and kosode.



                        I guess you could do this at multiple points to even it out, but most people seem to do it just at either side.

                        --

                        The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie

                        (m.k.a. Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)

                        ishiyama@...



















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Solveig Throndardottir
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It s not exactly stylish. It is like rolling up your sleeves. It is part of a chambara cliche. The samurai going into
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 28, 2012
                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going to do that as well. it looks really stylish.

                          It's not exactly stylish. It is like rolling up your sleeves. It is part of a chambara cliche. The samurai going into a duel or other similar action also tie back their sleeves with a cord.

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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