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Could someone help me identify these "pants"?

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  • Pia
    Hello there, I was watching this movie and since I am in the process of making my own costume I thought that these pants would be better when travelling than
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
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      Hello there,

      I was watching this movie and since I am in the process of making my own costume I thought that these "pants" would be better when travelling than wearing the "standard" Hakama. I would be very greatful if someone could tell me the japenese name for this garment.

      http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/2838/8dpd44f6_png.htm

      The same question applies to the gloves.I was wondering if I can just use any kind of gloves (leather, cloth) or if there are special ones.

      http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/2838/2bbrfdo3_png.htm


      Thanks already.
    • LJonthebay
      He s wearing hakama with kyahan (also sometimes spelled kiahan) wrapped around his lower legs.
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
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        He's wearing hakama with kyahan (also sometimes spelled kiahan) wrapped around his lower legs.

        http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/english-boku/image-e/kyahan6526measurements.jpg shows what they look like flattened out.

        The second photo shows gloves (yugake) work with tekkou.
        http://www.shop-japan.co.jp/shop/image/s/s6506.jpg

        Saionji Shonagon
        West Kingdom.

        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Pia" <ti1816@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello there,
        >
        > I was watching this movie and since I am in the process of making my own costume I thought that these "pants" would be better when travelling than wearing the "standard" Hakama. I would be very greatful if someone could tell me the japenese name for this garment.
        >
        > http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/2838/8dpd44f6_png.htm
        >
        > The same question applies to the gloves.I was wondering if I can just use any kind of gloves (leather, cloth) or if there are special ones.
        >
        > http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/2838/2bbrfdo3_png.htm
        >
        >
        > Thanks already.
        >
      • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
        ... I agree that they are hakama. They may also be drawn up and tied just below the knee. I ve done that myself, and it keeps the hakama up out of the dust and
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
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          Saionji Shonagon wrote:
          > He's wearing hakama with kyahan (also sometimes spelled kiahan)
          > wrapped around his lower legs.

          I agree that they are hakama. They may also be drawn up and tied
          just below the knee. I've done that myself, and it keeps the hakama
          up out of the dust and mud while walking out in the world.

          I tend to do it by running a cord through the hakama hem, but I
          have seen pictures of garments that use "buttonholes" or "belt
          loops" around the hem through which the cord is threaded. I have
          also seen pictures of garments that have been simply bunched up
          and tied in place.

          Here's a picture of me wearing some raised hakama and kyahan -

          http://www.ee0r.com/proj/images/jgarb-pennsic36.jpg

          Though mine aren't as full as those worn in the picture.

          --
          The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
          (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
          ishiyama@...
        • Eileen Young
          Is the hat in the picture a man s hat or a hat that everyone wore? Eileen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
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            Is the hat in the picture a man's hat or a hat that everyone wore?
            Eileen

            > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            > From: ishiyama@...
            > Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 10:00:50 -0500
            > Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?
            >

            >
            > Here's a picture of me wearing some raised hakama and kyahan -
            >
            > http://www.ee0r.com/proj/images/jgarb-pennsic36.jpg
            >
            > Though mine aren't as full as those worn in the picture.
            >
            > --
            > The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
            > (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
            > ishiyama@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Pia Lampert
            Heya, thanks for your answers. So it is a Hakama hmmm.  @Ishiyama How come that your Hakama aren t as full as the ones in the picture? What makes the
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
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              Heya,

              thanks for your answers. So it is a Hakama hmmm. 

              @Ishiyama

              How come that your Hakama aren't as full as the ones in the picture?
              What makes the differences?Cloth? The way he tied up his Hakama?

              I am having a hard time trying to imagine how it works. Are there any pictures
              or tutorials on how to do it? Where does the cord end and is it hidden? So many questions =).


              ________________________________
              Von: Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...>
              An: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Gesendet: 16:00 Freitag, 23.März 2012
              Betreff: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?


               
              Saionji Shonagon wrote:
              > He's wearing hakama with kyahan (also sometimes spelled kiahan)
              > wrapped around his lower legs.

              I agree that they are hakama. They may also be drawn up and tied
              just below the knee. I've done that myself, and it keeps the hakama
              up out of the dust and mud while walking out in the world.

              I tend to do it by running a cord through the hakama hem, but I
              have seen pictures of garments that use "buttonholes" or "belt
              loops" around the hem through which the cord is threaded. I have
              also seen pictures of garments that have been simply bunched up
              and tied in place.

              Here's a picture of me wearing some raised hakama and kyahan -

              http://www.ee0r.com/proj/images/jgarb-pennsic36.jpg

              Though mine aren't as full as those worn in the picture.

              --
              The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
              (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
              ishiyama@...



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig Throndardottir
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Looking at the picture, it is possible that the hakama are simply hitched up. That would account for the fullness. Your
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! Looking at the picture, it is possible that the hakama are simply hitched up. That would account for the fullness.

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar
              • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                ... The hat is a sando gasa , and is appropriate for townfolk and travellers, though I would actually be hard pressed to document it as truly period for
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 23, 2012
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                  Eileen Young wrote:
                  > Is the hat in the picture a man's hat or a hat that everyone wore?

                  The hat is a "sando gasa", and is appropriate for townfolk and
                  travellers, though I would actually be hard pressed to document it
                  as truly period for either gender.

                  In the SCA, it is commonly worn by both men and women. It is most
                  notable for being an actual Japanese hat, similar enough to
                  documentable headwear to pass, and actually can be bought in North
                  America (overseas shipping adds up, even on light items).

                  Pia Lampert wrote:
                  > How come that your Hakama aren't as full as the ones in the picture?
                  > What makes the differences? Cloth? The way he tied up his Hakama?

                  Logically speaking, clothing fullness is a function of wealth. That
                  photo was taken at Pennsic, and I am dressed extremely informally
                  as a commoner due to warm weather. He is obviously a highly-paid,
                  skilled swordsman.

                  Mechanically speaking, the hakama I am wearing in that picture only
                  use three panels per leg (2 in front, 1 in back), and the panels are
                  somewhat narrow. He probably has four panels per leg, and the panels
                  look pretty wide. Period looms are anywhere from 14 to 16 inches wide.
                  My panels might have been cut from 54" fabric, giving me 13.5 inch
                  panels.

                  Here's a museum picture showing a lower-class peddler -

                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/26.htm

                  Here's a picture showing a warrior -

                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/15.htm

                  > I am having a hard time trying to imagine how it works. Are there
                  > any pictures or tutorials on how to do it? Where does the cord end
                  > and is it hidden? So many questions =).

                  For the blue hakama in my picture, I simply used the hem as a casing
                  and ran a cord through it all the way around the leg opening. The
                  cord enters and leaves at the outside seam. The cord is about two
                  feet longer than the total circumference of the opening, so the legs
                  can be completely opened and hang straight down.

                  To use, I simply cross the cords and pull them tight, just like the
                  top of a drawstring bag, position the gathers just below my knee,
                  and tie the cords. Because of the amount of fabric, this is
                  sometimes not as "simple" as I say, and takes some adjusting. You
                  can imagine gathering the fabric by hand and tying it in place with
                  a cord, but you might need somebody to help you with that. Some
                  people tell me that instead of a separate cord, you can tie the
                  gathered fabric in place with the kyahan, but I don't trust that to
                  hold, and have never tried it.

                  Whatever method you use, it's hidden no matter what because the
                  fabric blouses out and down, covering whatever you do.

                  --
                  The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                  (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
                  ishiyama@...
                • Pia Lampert
                  Ah ok now I see clearer =). Thanks to all and for the description. As soon as I get another Hakama I will try it myself.  Pia ________________________________
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 24, 2012
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                    Ah ok now I see clearer =). Thanks to all and for the description.
                    As soon as I get another Hakama I will try it myself. 


                    Pia


                    ________________________________
                    Von: Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie <ishiyama@...>
                    An: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                    Gesendet: 22:48 Freitag, 23.März 2012
                    Betreff: Re: [SCA-JML] Could someone help me identify these "pants"?


                     
                    Eileen Young wrote:
                    > Is the hat in the picture a man's hat or a hat that everyone wore?

                    The hat is a "sando gasa", and is appropriate for townfolk and
                    travellers, though I would actually be hard pressed to document it
                    as truly period for either gender.

                    In the SCA, it is commonly worn by both men and women. It is most
                    notable for being an actual Japanese hat, similar enough to
                    documentable headwear to pass, and actually can be bought in North
                    America (overseas shipping adds up, even on light items).

                    Pia Lampert wrote:
                    > How come that your Hakama aren't as full as the ones in the picture?
                    > What makes the differences? Cloth? The way he tied up his Hakama?

                    Logically speaking, clothing fullness is a function of wealth. That
                    photo was taken at Pennsic, and I am dressed extremely informally
                    as a commoner due to warm weather. He is obviously a highly-paid,
                    skilled swordsman.

                    Mechanically speaking, the hakama I am wearing in that picture only
                    use three panels per leg (2 in front, 1 in back), and the panels are
                    somewhat narrow. He probably has four panels per leg, and the panels
                    look pretty wide. Period looms are anywhere from 14 to 16 inches wide.
                    My panels might have been cut from 54" fabric, giving me 13.5 inch
                    panels.

                    Here's a museum picture showing a lower-class peddler -

                    http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/26.htm

                    Here's a picture showing a warrior -

                    http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/15.htm

                    > I am having a hard time trying to imagine how it works. Are there
                    > any pictures or tutorials on how to do it? Where does the cord end
                    > and is it hidden? So many questions =).

                    For the blue hakama in my picture, I simply used the hem as a casing
                    and ran a cord through it all the way around the leg opening. The
                    cord enters and leaves at the outside seam. The cord is about two
                    feet longer than the total circumference of the opening, so the legs
                    can be completely opened and hang straight down.

                    To use, I simply cross the cords and pull them tight, just like the
                    top of a drawstring bag, position the gathers just below my knee,
                    and tie the cords. Because of the amount of fabric, this is
                    sometimes not as "simple" as I say, and takes some adjusting. You
                    can imagine gathering the fabric by hand and tying it in place with
                    a cord, but you might need somebody to help you with that. Some
                    people tell me that instead of a separate cord, you can tie the
                    gathered fabric in place with the kyahan, but I don't trust that to
                    hold, and have never tried it.

                    Whatever method you use, it's hidden no matter what because the
                    fabric blouses out and down, covering whatever you do.

                    --
                    The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                    (mka: Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
                    ishiyama@...



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jess
                    It s funny that you mention those hakama, the movie those pictures are from is Red Sun with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. When I was making my husband s
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
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                      It's funny that you mention those hakama, the movie those pictures are from is Red Sun with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. When I was making my husband's first set of Japanese garb he said he wanted pants like the ones Mifune wore in Red Sun. I searched the web, and every Japanese clothing book I could find, trying to figure out what kind of pants those were. I watched the movie several times, fast-forwarding to any scene where I could clearly see the pants and found a brief snippet of a scene that answered the question. They are normal hakama that he hitches up at the sides and tucks into his obi making them look like short, baggy, hakama. As soon as I read your subject line that movie popped into my head and I chuckled when I saw the pictures.

                      Sanada Katsumi
                    • Pia Lampert
                      Heh, yeah same here. I stumbled across the movie and liked it at once. When I saw his pants I wanted to have them, but like you I had problems to figure out
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
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                        Heh, yeah same here. I stumbled across the movie and liked it at once. When I saw his "pants" I wanted to have them, but like you I had problems to figure out what kind of pants Mifune is wearing.  Good to know that there are people out here with so much knowledge =)

                        But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going to do that as well. it looks really stylish. 

                        Amaya



                        ________________________________
                        Von: Jess <slaoen@...>
                        An: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Gesendet: 15:46 Montag, 26.März 2012
                        Betreff: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?


                         
                        It's funny that you mention those hakama, the movie those pictures are from is Red Sun with Toshiro Mifune and Charles Bronson. When I was making my husband's first set of Japanese garb he said he wanted pants like the ones Mifune wore in Red Sun. I searched the web, and every Japanese clothing book I could find, trying to figure out what kind of pants those were. I watched the movie several times, fast-forwarding to any scene where I could clearly see the pants and found a brief snippet of a scene that answered the question. They are normal hakama that he hitches up at the sides and tucks into his obi making them look like short, baggy, hakama. As soon as I read your subject line that movie popped into my head and I chuckled when I saw the pictures.

                        Sanada Katsumi




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • LJonthebay
                        ... You don t. The obi goes on underneath. Yes, really. Saionji Shonagon West Kingdom
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Pia Lampert <ti1816@...> wrote:
                          > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi?

                          You don't. The obi goes on underneath. Yes, really.

                          Saionji Shonagon
                          West Kingdom
                        • Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                          ... I don t do this myself, but some people swear by it in hot weather. Just reach down in through the side openings of the hakama, grab the bottom hem, pull
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 26, 2012
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                            Pia Lampert wrote:
                            > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going
                            > to do that as well. it looks really stylish. 

                            I don't do this myself, but some people swear by it in hot weather. Just reach down in through the side openings of the hakama, grab the bottom hem, pull it up, and tuck a corner of it up between the obi (or the hakama himo if you're not wearing an obi) and kosode.

                            I guess you could do this at multiple points to even it out, but most people seem to do it just at either side.
                            --
                            The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie
                            (m.k.a. Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)
                            ishiyama@...
                          • David Holt
                            For a shortening of the legs somewhere between full length and pulling the bottom hem up to the belt, you can also grab the lowest point of the side cuts and
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 27, 2012
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                              For a shortening of the legs somewhere between full length and pulling the bottom hem up to the belt, you can also grab the lowest point of the side cuts and pull it up through the obi/himo. Both of the people in the foreground of this picture have done it: http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t303/jdmcowan/?action=view¤t=DSCF2833.jpg

                              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                              From: ishiyama@...
                              Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:58:30 -0400
                              Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Could someone help me identify these "pants"?




























                              Pia Lampert wrote:

                              > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going

                              > to do that as well. it looks really stylish.



                              I don't do this myself, but some people swear by it in hot weather. Just reach down in through the side openings of the hakama, grab the bottom hem, pull it up, and tuck a corner of it up between the obi (or the hakama himo if you're not wearing an obi) and kosode.



                              I guess you could do this at multiple points to even it out, but most people seem to do it just at either side.

                              --

                              The Hon. Lord Ishiyama Gen'tarou Yori'ie

                              (m.k.a. Elliott C. "Eeyore" Evans)

                              ishiyama@...



















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Solveig Throndardottir
                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It s not exactly stylish. It is like rolling up your sleeves. It is part of a chambara cliche. The samurai going into
                              Message 14 of 14 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                Noble Cousin!

                                Greetings from Solveig!

                                > But how would you tuck your Hakama into your obi? Anyways I am going to do that as well. it looks really stylish.

                                It's not exactly stylish. It is like rolling up your sleeves. It is part of a chambara cliche. The samurai going into a duel or other similar action also tie back their sleeves with a cord.

                                Your Humble Servant
                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                Amateur Scholar



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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