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A thought on fair use, copyright and intellectual property

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  • LJonthebay
    There are reasons that my website has a relatively small number of images from copyrighted sources. Wholesale scrapbooking of someone else s work and research
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 17, 2011
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      There are reasons that my website has a relatively small number of images from copyrighted sources. Wholesale scrapbooking of someone else's work and research has never sat well with me personally, but now with the internet "everybody else does it" seems to be the norm.

      Might I suggest creating a bibliography instead and posting it to the links or files section of the list where it can reside as a ready reference? (Reminds me, I need to update mine at some point....)

      Two sen from behind the kicho,

      Saionji no Hana
      West Kingdom
    • richard johnson
      I agree with you as copyright infringment is a big issue. One could make the argument that purchasing a used book or DVD is the same, as the artist/author
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 18, 2011
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        I agree with you as copyright infringment is a big issue.

        One could make the argument that purchasing a used book or DVD is the
        same, as the artist/author receives no royalties for this so what is
        the difference? other than a minor point of law the courts refuse to
        adequatly address.

        The works I am offering are the much older works that have been in
        public domain for some years or decades, perhaps centuries?
        But this is because I am poor and cannot afford to buy all the newer
        ones that are offered as e-books, preferring to spend my limited funds
        on the paper versions which are much more enjoyable to read. Ebooks
        are for travel! Paper books are for enjoyment.

        And so few people are taking the touble to convert the recent books to
        e-books because they are a) still in copyright, b) not enough desire
        for them in e-formats to justify the cost, c) those people who
        purchase the hard-copy have not yet scanned them as ebooks.

        So I tend to search the 'net for sites like the recent one mentioned
        and collect them there.
        When the book is as chjapters, I do a copy-and-paste into a doc file
        for my own use.

        On 9/17/11, LJonthebay <wodeford@...> wrote:
        > There are reasons that my website has a relatively small number of images
        > from copyrighted sources. Wholesale scrapbooking of someone else's work and
        > research has never sat well with me personally, but now with the internet
        > "everybody else does it" seems to be the norm.
        >
        > Might I suggest creating a bibliography instead and posting it to the links
        > or files section of the list where it can reside as a ready reference?
        > (Reminds me, I need to update mine at some point....)
        >
        > Two sen from behind the kicho,
        >
        > Saionji no Hana
        > West Kingdom
        >
        >


        --
        Rick Johnson
        http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
        "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
        security will soon find that they have neither."
      • JL Badgley
        ... Not to quibble, but when you buy a used book or DVD then the original owner no longer has use of the original. Many of the scans I have recently seen
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 18, 2011
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          On Sep 18, 2011 1:33 PM, "richard johnson" <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > One could make the argument that purchasing a used book or DVD is the
          > same, as the artist/author receives no royalties for this so what is
          > the difference? other than a minor point of law the courts refuse to
          > adequatly address.
          >

          Not to quibble, but when you buy a used book or DVD then the original owner
          no longer has use of the original. Many of the scans I have recently seen
          appear to be from books published in the last 50 years, and likely still
          copyright to their owners.

          -Ii


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! We need to distinguish between reproductions of 2D works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 18, 2011
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            Noble Cousins!

            Greetings from Solveig! We need to distinguish between reproductions of 2D works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are generally speaking fair game as the last time it was litigated the people claiming copyright lost in court. Photographs of 3D objects are an entirely different matter and have a much better chance of being protected by copyright in that the photographer selects angle of presentation, lighting, &c. Now then, as I recall, neither of these were really intended to be protected by copyright. If you read the actual laws, the emphasis is on art photography with explicit mention made of numbered prints and stuff like that. The big problem is that you can loose your shirt in court even if you win.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • JL Badgley
            ... works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are generally speaking fair game as the last time it was litigated the people claiming
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 18, 2011
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              On Sep 18, 2011 5:00 PM, "Solveig Throndardottir" <nostrand@...> wrote:
              >

              > Greetings from Solveig! We need to distinguish between reproductions of 2D
              works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are generally
              speaking fair game as the last time it was litigated the people claiming
              copyright lost in court.

              However, if you include the text along with the photo then you have a
              problem unless the text is also out of copyright or you can argue "fair
              use."

              -Ii


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • art_fetish
              Pardon my lack of voice on the matter Ive been offline on a mini family vacation. That being said I certainly didnt expect to see this when I returned. First
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                Pardon my lack of voice on the matter Ive been offline on a mini family vacation. That being said I certainly didnt expect to see this when I returned.

                First and foremost, before taking any photos of the books contents I asked permission from the library and they granted it. The library even has a copying machine so that people can make physical copies for use and documentation of the books contents. I even made copies of Momoyama kosode layout and construction diagrams for use in an upcoming workshop I am teaching.

                Secondly, speaking from first hand knowledge, and confirmed from the first hand knowledge of my friend (PH level Teacher), we may reproduce published materials without violating copyright law so long as it is within the realm of educational purposes. Everything shared here was for educational purposes and research, not for profit: thus legal. This new pro-education copyright law has come about in the past few years.

                Third, many of these books are very expensive and outside peoples personal budget or just flat out cant be bought anymore. I know I, and many others would not want to be spending $100+ on a book not really knowing the quality of the content, much less if it even applies to the period I am interested in.

                Allow me to speak from experience about blind buying: I have a large personal library of books related to Japanese textiles with at least a thousand dollars or more sunk into it. Many of these books I have to 'blindly' purchase because there are no reviews or photos of the content. Having to blindly shop for these specialized books online is expensive, frustrating, and a gamble - which stinks. Most of us know how much it stinks to have to buy a book online, not knowing if it recall is what you are looking for or not.

                My main purpose with all the reviews and photos is to help people buy these books in confidence for their personal research and furthering their education. Secondly I wanted to show SOME contents from the more rare and expensive books that might now otherwise be possible to buy: for educational purposes.

                Another point to touch on in regards to copyright is the amount of use of material - even in US court this is a very aloof matter. That some material can be used for even commercial for profit reviews (Check out Amazon.com , they have photos of the interior of books for many books). That even for profit use is allowed, up to a certain point...but what that point is, no one is quiet sure.

                The bottom line is that everything here is education review for personal research, the books are not being reproduced in the whole (not even 40% of the books contents are being shown), and certainly not for personal profit - thus fair use in the USA.

                -Lady Kimiko
                PS - I am citing US laws due to the library being in the US.

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                >
                > On Sep 18, 2011 5:00 PM, "Solveig Throndardottir" <nostrand@...> wrote:
                > >
                >
                > > Greetings from Solveig! We need to distinguish between reproductions of 2D
                > works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are generally
                > speaking fair game as the last time it was litigated the people claiming
                > copyright lost in court.
                >
                > However, if you include the text along with the photo then you have a
                > problem unless the text is also out of copyright or you can argue "fair
                > use."
                >
                > -Ii
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • richard johnson
                Yes, many of the books you find in PDF and in used bookstores and yard sales are within 10 years and so still under the original copyright. Does that give the
                Message 7 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                  Yes, many of the books you find in PDF and in used bookstores and yard
                  sales are within 10 years and so still under the original copyright.
                  Does that give the seller the right to make money without paying
                  royalties? Or do they have the right to sell or give the book away
                  because they orignally purchased it and paid royalties?
                  If so, the argument can be made that buying abook, scaning then giving
                  it away is the same.
                  Yet the law looks at the two diferntly as they tried to when the VCR
                  was invented. The courts finally threw up their hands in frustrations
                  and said that so long as you doin't SELL the copy... yet people do.
                  (there is a woman on CL-Tucson who sells pirate DVD of new movies.
                  She is shut down constantly for exactly this reason)

                  Copyright varies by country.
                  America has loger copyright than Aurtralia and Canada has different from Europe.
                  That's why Gutenberg Ca sucks but Gutenberg Au rocks! IF you want a
                  book that you cannot get in NA.

                  Of course, one could make the argument that geting a book IN Australia
                  is legal but an American getting a book FROM Australia is a violation.

                  But that's why they invented lawyers. to make some sense of this.

                  Why is it legal to buy ten copies of a book still in copyright at a
                  Borders sale, then sell them on Amazon at twice what you paid?
                  But you cannot buy a used book, scan it and give the PDF away to one person>

                  It's the way the law is written.

                  Why is it legal to carry a loaded firearm in many cities but illegal
                  to carry an unstrung bow and quiver of arrows in that same city?

                  It's the way the law was written.

                  People pass laws without thinking of the consequences of that law.
                  Stupid laws like not allowing your dog in public without a diaper
                  sounded good at that time (stop them from pooping on the sidewalks)
                  but any intelligent person would think about this and say... 'but what
                  about...?"


                  BTW, I apologize fro not trimming this post. Gmail at my house will
                  not allow me to do that. But gmail at my work will.

                  On 9/19/11, art_fetish <art_fetish@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Pardon my lack of voice on the matter Ive been offline on a mini family
                  > vacation. That being said I certainly didnt expect to see this when I
                  > returned.
                  >
                  > First and foremost, before taking any photos of the books contents I asked
                  > permission from the library and they granted it. The library even has a
                  > copying machine so that people can make physical copies for use and
                  > documentation of the books contents. I even made copies of Momoyama kosode
                  > layout and construction diagrams for use in an upcoming workshop I am
                  > teaching.
                  >
                  > Secondly, speaking from first hand knowledge, and confirmed from the first
                  > hand knowledge of my friend (PH level Teacher), we may reproduce published
                  > materials without violating copyright law so long as it is within the realm
                  > of educational purposes. Everything shared here was for educational purposes
                  > and research, not for profit: thus legal. This new pro-education copyright
                  > law has come about in the past few years.
                  >
                  > Third, many of these books are very expensive and outside peoples personal
                  > budget or just flat out cant be bought anymore. I know I, and many others
                  > would not want to be spending $100+ on a book not really knowing the quality
                  > of the content, much less if it even applies to the period I am interested
                  > in.
                  >
                  > Allow me to speak from experience about blind buying: I have a large
                  > personal library of books related to Japanese textiles with at least a
                  > thousand dollars or more sunk into it. Many of these books I have to
                  > 'blindly' purchase because there are no reviews or photos of the content.
                  > Having to blindly shop for these specialized books online is expensive,
                  > frustrating, and a gamble - which stinks. Most of us know how much it stinks
                  > to have to buy a book online, not knowing if it recall is what you are
                  > looking for or not.
                  >
                  > My main purpose with all the reviews and photos is to help people buy these
                  > books in confidence for their personal research and furthering their
                  > education. Secondly I wanted to show SOME contents from the more rare and
                  > expensive books that might now otherwise be possible to buy: for educational
                  > purposes.
                  >
                  > Another point to touch on in regards to copyright is the amount of use of
                  > material - even in US court this is a very aloof matter. That some material
                  > can be used for even commercial for profit reviews (Check out Amazon.com ,
                  > they have photos of the interior of books for many books). That even for
                  > profit use is allowed, up to a certain point...but what that point is, no
                  > one is quiet sure.
                  >
                  > The bottom line is that everything here is education review for personal
                  > research, the books are not being reproduced in the whole (not even 40% of
                  > the books contents are being shown), and certainly not for personal profit -
                  > thus fair use in the USA.
                  >
                  > -Lady Kimiko
                  > PS - I am citing US laws due to the library being in the US.
                  >
                  > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> On Sep 18, 2011 5:00 PM, "Solveig Throndardottir" <nostrand@...> wrote:
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >> > Greetings from Solveig! We need to distinguish between reproductions of
                  >> > 2D
                  >> works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are
                  >> generally
                  >> speaking fair game as the last time it was litigated the people claiming
                  >> copyright lost in court.
                  >>
                  >> However, if you include the text along with the photo then you have a
                  >> problem unless the text is also out of copyright or you can argue "fair
                  >> use."
                  >>
                  >> -Ii
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  --
                  Rick Johnson
                  http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                  "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                  security will soon find that they have neither."
                • art_fetish
                  One thing not address is that there is a difference between scanning an entire book and giving it away, verses showing some parts for educational purposes and
                  Message 8 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                    One thing not address is that there is a difference between scanning an entire book and giving it away, verses showing some parts for educational purposes and then encouraging people to buy the book. Big difference. Trust me, what was posted was far from the entire books, or even half.

                    If someone thinks that "AH HA! Now I have the whole book" from just a handful of photos...they are sorely wrong and are missing a ton more content. The point is to show educational content that is accurate enough for people to make informed decisions about future purchases.

                    Additionally, most of these materials are housed in public government owned collections and thus are not subject to the tighter copyright laws that pieces in a private collection would be. Public / government owned items have different and generally more liberal rules....which is why you can go into most art museums and take photos for research...just not sell the photos.

                    That being said....Ill stress this again: if someone thinks I documented the whole book and that they no longer need to buy any of these books they are dead wrong. I only snapped a teaser selection relevant to period to help encourage people making education research related purchasing choices. I'm encouraging purchasing, no pulling "I took all the photos so you don't have to buy it now".


                    Please buy these books if they are your particular flavor, and support the industry. As stated in my own reviews, I am now buying several books that I was otherwise never aware of.

                    -Lady Kimiko

                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Yes, many of the books you find in PDF and in used bookstores and yard
                    > sales are within 10 years and so still under the original copyright.
                    > Does that give the seller the right to make money without paying
                    > royalties? Or do they have the right to sell or give the book away
                    > because they orignally purchased it and paid royalties?
                    > If so, the argument can be made that buying abook, scaning then giving
                    > it away is the same.
                    > Yet the law looks at the two diferntly as they tried to when the VCR
                    > was invented. The courts finally threw up their hands in frustrations
                    > and said that so long as you doin't SELL the copy... yet people do.
                    > (there is a woman on CL-Tucson who sells pirate DVD of new movies.
                    > She is shut down constantly for exactly this reason)
                    >
                    > Copyright varies by country.
                    > America has loger copyright than Aurtralia and Canada has different from Europe.
                    > That's why Gutenberg Ca sucks but Gutenberg Au rocks! IF you want a
                    > book that you cannot get in NA.
                    >
                    > Of course, one could make the argument that geting a book IN Australia
                    > is legal but an American getting a book FROM Australia is a violation.
                    >
                    > But that's why they invented lawyers. to make some sense of this.
                    >
                    > Why is it legal to buy ten copies of a book still in copyright at a
                    > Borders sale, then sell them on Amazon at twice what you paid?
                    > But you cannot buy a used book, scan it and give the PDF away to one person>
                    >
                    > It's the way the law is written.
                    >
                    > Why is it legal to carry a loaded firearm in many cities but illegal
                    > to carry an unstrung bow and quiver of arrows in that same city?
                    >
                    > It's the way the law was written.
                    >
                    > People pass laws without thinking of the consequences of that law.
                    > Stupid laws like not allowing your dog in public without a diaper
                    > sounded good at that time (stop them from pooping on the sidewalks)
                    > but any intelligent person would think about this and say... 'but what
                    > about...?"
                    >
                    >
                    > BTW, I apologize fro not trimming this post. Gmail at my house will
                    > not allow me to do that. But gmail at my work will.
                    >
                    > On 9/19/11, art_fetish <art_fetish@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Pardon my lack of voice on the matter Ive been offline on a mini family
                    > > vacation. That being said I certainly didnt expect to see this when I
                    > > returned.
                    > >
                    > > First and foremost, before taking any photos of the books contents I asked
                    > > permission from the library and they granted it. The library even has a
                    > > copying machine so that people can make physical copies for use and
                    > > documentation of the books contents. I even made copies of Momoyama kosode
                    > > layout and construction diagrams for use in an upcoming workshop I am
                    > > teaching.
                    > >
                    > > Secondly, speaking from first hand knowledge, and confirmed from the first
                    > > hand knowledge of my friend (PH level Teacher), we may reproduce published
                    > > materials without violating copyright law so long as it is within the realm
                    > > of educational purposes. Everything shared here was for educational purposes
                    > > and research, not for profit: thus legal. This new pro-education copyright
                    > > law has come about in the past few years.
                    > >
                    > > Third, many of these books are very expensive and outside peoples personal
                    > > budget or just flat out cant be bought anymore. I know I, and many others
                    > > would not want to be spending $100+ on a book not really knowing the quality
                    > > of the content, much less if it even applies to the period I am interested
                    > > in.
                    > >
                    > > Allow me to speak from experience about blind buying: I have a large
                    > > personal library of books related to Japanese textiles with at least a
                    > > thousand dollars or more sunk into it. Many of these books I have to
                    > > 'blindly' purchase because there are no reviews or photos of the content.
                    > > Having to blindly shop for these specialized books online is expensive,
                    > > frustrating, and a gamble - which stinks. Most of us know how much it stinks
                    > > to have to buy a book online, not knowing if it recall is what you are
                    > > looking for or not.
                    > >
                    > > My main purpose with all the reviews and photos is to help people buy these
                    > > books in confidence for their personal research and furthering their
                    > > education. Secondly I wanted to show SOME contents from the more rare and
                    > > expensive books that might now otherwise be possible to buy: for educational
                    > > purposes.
                    > >
                    > > Another point to touch on in regards to copyright is the amount of use of
                    > > material - even in US court this is a very aloof matter. That some material
                    > > can be used for even commercial for profit reviews (Check out Amazon.com ,
                    > > they have photos of the interior of books for many books). That even for
                    > > profit use is allowed, up to a certain point...but what that point is, no
                    > > one is quiet sure.
                    > >
                    > > The bottom line is that everything here is education review for personal
                    > > research, the books are not being reproduced in the whole (not even 40% of
                    > > the books contents are being shown), and certainly not for personal profit -
                    > > thus fair use in the USA.
                    > >
                    > > -Lady Kimiko
                    > > PS - I am citing US laws due to the library being in the US.
                    > >
                    > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@> wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> On Sep 18, 2011 5:00 PM, "Solveig Throndardottir" <nostrand@> wrote:
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> > Greetings from Solveig! We need to distinguish between reproductions of
                    > >> > 2D
                    > >> works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are
                    > >> generally
                    > >> speaking fair game as the last time it was litigated the people claiming
                    > >> copyright lost in court.
                    > >>
                    > >> However, if you include the text along with the photo then you have a
                    > >> problem unless the text is also out of copyright or you can argue "fair
                    > >> use."
                    > >>
                    > >> -Ii
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Rick Johnson
                    > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                    > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                    > security will soon find that they have neither."
                    >
                  • richard johnson
                    I apologize. I am lost here. Are you referring to the archery site that has a link on this e-group or are you referring to a differnt site that I obviously
                    Message 9 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                      I apologize.
                      I am lost here.
                      Are you referring to the archery site that has a link on this e-group or are
                      you referring to a differnt site that I obviously missed?



                      On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 9:57 AM, art_fetish <art_fetish@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      > One thing not address is that there is a difference between scanning an
                      > entire book and giving it away, verses showing some parts for educational
                      > purposes and then encouraging people to buy the book. Big difference. Trust
                      > me, what was posted was far from the entire books, or even half.
                      > Please buy these books if they are your particular flavor, and support the
                      > industry. As stated in my own reviews, I am now buying several books that I
                      > was otherwise never aware of.
                      >
                      > -Lady Kimiko
                      >







                      > --
                      > Rick Johnson
                      > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                      > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                      > security will soon find that they have neither."
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • setsuko_iwashiro
                      I d never dream of buying a book without at least SOME look at the contents. The same goes for music- people gripe about songs on Youtube, but I use Youtube
                      Message 10 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                        I'd never dream of buying a book without at least SOME look at the contents. The same goes for music- people gripe about songs on Youtube, but I use Youtube to preview a song before heading to Amazon to buy it. Several artists I follow, I found via Youtube- and I'm the type of fan artists WANT, who buys all the albums they put out, even to absurd numbers. If someone lists a book on Ebay and there aren't photos of the contents- at least 4 or 5- I don't bite. Money is tight for artists, and many SCA-types are in the arts... I like to make sure before I buy.

                        Besides, reproduction for educational purposes *IS* permitted under copyright law. I don't like to say it, but I think that all the complaining for a few quite-legal scans is needlessly contentious... Showing a few scans promotes the books- it's a teaser for the book contents, like a movie trailer.

                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "art_fetish" <art_fetish@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > One thing not address is that there is a difference between scanning an entire book and giving it away, verses showing some parts for educational purposes and then encouraging people to buy the book. Big difference. Trust me, what was posted was far from the entire books, or even half.
                        >
                        > If someone thinks that "AH HA! Now I have the whole book" from just a handful of photos...they are sorely wrong and are missing a ton more content. The point is to show educational content that is accurate enough for people to make informed decisions about future purchases.
                        >
                        > Additionally, most of these materials are housed in public government owned collections and thus are not subject to the tighter copyright laws that pieces in a private collection would be. Public / government owned items have different and generally more liberal rules....which is why you can go into most art museums and take photos for research...just not sell the photos.
                        >
                        > That being said....Ill stress this again: if someone thinks I documented the whole book and that they no longer need to buy any of these books they are dead wrong. I only snapped a teaser selection relevant to period to help encourage people making education research related purchasing choices. I'm encouraging purchasing, no pulling "I took all the photos so you don't have to buy it now".
                        >
                        >
                        > Please buy these books if they are your particular flavor, and support the industry. As stated in my own reviews, I am now buying several books that I was otherwise never aware of.
                        >
                        > -Lady Kimiko
                        >
                        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, richard johnson <rikjohnson39@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Yes, many of the books you find in PDF and in used bookstores and yard
                        > > sales are within 10 years and so still under the original copyright.
                        > > Does that give the seller the right to make money without paying
                        > > royalties? Or do they have the right to sell or give the book away
                        > > because they orignally purchased it and paid royalties?
                        > > If so, the argument can be made that buying abook, scaning then giving
                        > > it away is the same.
                        > > Yet the law looks at the two diferntly as they tried to when the VCR
                        > > was invented. The courts finally threw up their hands in frustrations
                        > > and said that so long as you doin't SELL the copy... yet people do.
                        > > (there is a woman on CL-Tucson who sells pirate DVD of new movies.
                        > > She is shut down constantly for exactly this reason)
                        > >
                        > > Copyright varies by country.
                        > > America has loger copyright than Aurtralia and Canada has different from Europe.
                        > > That's why Gutenberg Ca sucks but Gutenberg Au rocks! IF you want a
                        > > book that you cannot get in NA.
                        > >
                        > > Of course, one could make the argument that geting a book IN Australia
                        > > is legal but an American getting a book FROM Australia is a violation.
                        > >
                        > > But that's why they invented lawyers. to make some sense of this.
                        > >
                        > > Why is it legal to buy ten copies of a book still in copyright at a
                        > > Borders sale, then sell them on Amazon at twice what you paid?
                        > > But you cannot buy a used book, scan it and give the PDF away to one person>
                        > >
                        > > It's the way the law is written.
                        > >
                        > > Why is it legal to carry a loaded firearm in many cities but illegal
                        > > to carry an unstrung bow and quiver of arrows in that same city?
                        > >
                        > > It's the way the law was written.
                        > >
                        > > People pass laws without thinking of the consequences of that law.
                        > > Stupid laws like not allowing your dog in public without a diaper
                        > > sounded good at that time (stop them from pooping on the sidewalks)
                        > > but any intelligent person would think about this and say... 'but what
                        > > about...?"
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > BTW, I apologize fro not trimming this post. Gmail at my house will
                        > > not allow me to do that. But gmail at my work will.
                        > >
                        > > On 9/19/11, art_fetish <art_fetish@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Pardon my lack of voice on the matter Ive been offline on a mini family
                        > > > vacation. That being said I certainly didnt expect to see this when I
                        > > > returned.
                        > > >
                        > > > First and foremost, before taking any photos of the books contents I asked
                        > > > permission from the library and they granted it. The library even has a
                        > > > copying machine so that people can make physical copies for use and
                        > > > documentation of the books contents. I even made copies of Momoyama kosode
                        > > > layout and construction diagrams for use in an upcoming workshop I am
                        > > > teaching.
                        > > >
                        > > > Secondly, speaking from first hand knowledge, and confirmed from the first
                        > > > hand knowledge of my friend (PH level Teacher), we may reproduce published
                        > > > materials without violating copyright law so long as it is within the realm
                        > > > of educational purposes. Everything shared here was for educational purposes
                        > > > and research, not for profit: thus legal. This new pro-education copyright
                        > > > law has come about in the past few years.
                        > > >
                        > > > Third, many of these books are very expensive and outside peoples personal
                        > > > budget or just flat out cant be bought anymore. I know I, and many others
                        > > > would not want to be spending $100+ on a book not really knowing the quality
                        > > > of the content, much less if it even applies to the period I am interested
                        > > > in.
                        > > >
                        > > > Allow me to speak from experience about blind buying: I have a large
                        > > > personal library of books related to Japanese textiles with at least a
                        > > > thousand dollars or more sunk into it. Many of these books I have to
                        > > > 'blindly' purchase because there are no reviews or photos of the content.
                        > > > Having to blindly shop for these specialized books online is expensive,
                        > > > frustrating, and a gamble - which stinks. Most of us know how much it stinks
                        > > > to have to buy a book online, not knowing if it recall is what you are
                        > > > looking for or not.
                        > > >
                        > > > My main purpose with all the reviews and photos is to help people buy these
                        > > > books in confidence for their personal research and furthering their
                        > > > education. Secondly I wanted to show SOME contents from the more rare and
                        > > > expensive books that might now otherwise be possible to buy: for educational
                        > > > purposes.
                        > > >
                        > > > Another point to touch on in regards to copyright is the amount of use of
                        > > > material - even in US court this is a very aloof matter. That some material
                        > > > can be used for even commercial for profit reviews (Check out Amazon.com ,
                        > > > they have photos of the interior of books for many books). That even for
                        > > > profit use is allowed, up to a certain point...but what that point is, no
                        > > > one is quiet sure.
                        > > >
                        > > > The bottom line is that everything here is education review for personal
                        > > > research, the books are not being reproduced in the whole (not even 40% of
                        > > > the books contents are being shown), and certainly not for personal profit -
                        > > > thus fair use in the USA.
                        > > >
                        > > > -Lady Kimiko
                        > > > PS - I am citing US laws due to the library being in the US.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, JL Badgley <tatsushu@> wrote:
                        > > >>
                        > > >> On Sep 18, 2011 5:00 PM, "Solveig Throndardottir" <nostrand@> wrote:
                        > > >> >
                        > > >>
                        > > >> > Greetings from Solveig! We need to distinguish between reproductions of
                        > > >> > 2D
                        > > >> works and photographs of 3D objects. Reproductions of 2D works are
                        > > >> generally
                        > > >> speaking fair game as the last time it was litigated the people claiming
                        > > >> copyright lost in court.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> However, if you include the text along with the photo then you have a
                        > > >> problem unless the text is also out of copyright or you can argue "fair
                        > > >> use."
                        > > >>
                        > > >> -Ii
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >>
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > Rick Johnson
                        > > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                        > > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                        > > security will soon find that they have neither."
                        > >
                        >
                      • richard johnson
                        This is why book stores and libraries are wonderful things. I can peruse the books at my leisure, then see if I like or dislike the work enough to purchase.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                          This is why book stores and libraries are wonderful things.
                          I can peruse the books at my leisure, then see if I like or dislike the work
                          enough to purchase.

                          Yes, I have purchased books from Amazon based on the blurb, only to find
                          that the blurb was like any commercial, one paragrraph of the best part of
                          the work followed by a recommendation by someone paid to push the work!
                          Only to find that the work was so bad, I wasted my time and money!

                          With a library, I can look at the books, read it for free, then if I really
                          like it, purchase it so I can reread it or keep it for reference.

                          of course,there are certain authors that deserve the purchase of their
                          works, based solely on my experience with their previous efforts.



                          On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 10:16 AM, setsuko_iwashiro <
                          whitefeatherart@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > I'd never dream of buying a book without at least SOME look at the
                          > contents.
                          > --
                          > Rick Johnson
                          > http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                          > "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined
                          > security will soon find that they have neither."
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Solveig Throndardottir
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Of course the library has copying facilities. Generally speaking, you can make a single copy for research and study
                          Message 12 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig!

                            > First and foremost, before taking any photos of the books contents I asked permission from the library and they granted it. The library even has a copying machine so that people can make physical copies for use and documentation of the books contents. I even made copies of Momoyama kosode layout and construction diagrams for use in an upcoming workshop I am teaching.

                            Of course the library has copying facilities. Generally speaking, you can make a single copy for research and study purposes. That is not at all the same thing as publishing a copy on the internet.

                            > Secondly, speaking from first hand knowledge, and confirmed from the first hand knowledge of my friend (PH level Teacher), we may reproduce published materials without violating copyright law so long as it is within the realm of educational purposes.

                            There are guidelines for bulk copying for classroom use. These generally include such things as timeliness in that it would take too long to obtain permission for use. As I recall there are four points that you are generally wise to observe.

                            The location of the library is not the only relevant location. As already mentioned, single copies are generally speaking fair game in the USA. The other problem is the place of publication of online content which I suspect is the USA as well.

                            Quotations for review purposes are understood as well. However, the extent to which things can be fairly quoted is a moving target. There is a case of successful suit over quoting a few paragraphs out of a book and as few as two musical notes. At least that is my recollection.

                            Another problem which we have to deal with is the DMCA which might adversely affect our current venue.

                            > Additionally, most of these materials are housed in public government owned collections and thus are not subject to the tighter copyright laws that pieces in a private collection would be. Public / government owned items have different and generally more liberal rules....which is why you can go into most art museums and take photos for research...just not sell the photos.

                            This is nonsense. The ownership of the physical copy of the book or of a physical object that is being reproduced in a book does not affect copyright. The owner may impose a contract as a condition of access, but that is not a copyright issue. Regardless, suppose I paint a picture and give it to you. You own the physical picture and can display it, but I retain the copyright and can sell these rights to someone else. Yes, that is how it works. You can not make copies of a picture which I give you or even sell you unless I explicitly give or sell the copyright to you. Anyway, anyone can reproduce images of the Mona Lisa. The Mona Lisa is aged out of copyright. It does not matter which museum owns the painting.

                            Nolo has a couple of nice books out there about copyright, public domain, and fair use. I suggest reading one of them.

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar
                          • art_fetish
                            ... The world of copyright in the digital era is fast paced and aggressive. If the books are more then a year old, they are already out of date. Being a
                            Message 13 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                              > Nolo has a couple of nice books out there about copyright, public domain, and fair use. I suggest reading one of them.
                              >
                              > Your Humble Servant
                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                              > Amateur Scholar


                              The world of copyright in the digital era is fast paced and aggressive. If the books are more then a year old, they are already out of date. Being a college grad with a business degree (I was considering law school with a focus on Copyright law...then I saw our local job market and changed my mind) - I am well versed with law having studied it in college, including a few copyright law class.

                              Here is the black and white that decides most copyright cases "Was a significant portion of the content republished in a manner that is harmful to the original source?" - nope in this case. In fact the object of my own postings was to encourage sales and get people to buy the books for their own education studies. Further more, even when there are infringements it normally comes down to a "cease and deist" order if it really goes too far. The materials published were not malicious, for profit, or even a significant portion of the books...and were shared encouraging purchases for educational studies.

                              I am done on this matter, and firmly stand in my choice to share and encourage others to consider these materials as good quality resources to buy. We can go round for ages on this, and frankly this is an SCA Japanese persona board not a copyright debate. As a middle ground Ill be certain to limit the photos shared in regards to reviews for educational research to roughly 3 - 10 tops.

                              Also, someone mentioned earlier that they dont buy books online without several preview photos, same here :). Which inspired me to check out these resources. Many of these resources I cant even find online, much less figure out their english translation...leaving nothing but photos to go on in term of it the book is relevant to our interests or not.


                              -Lady Kimiko
                            • Charles Dodge
                              Let me offer something for review that was said several messages ago by Richard.   I believe you, Solveig and Kimiko, are talking about two different websites
                              Message 14 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                                Let me offer something for review that was said several messages ago by Richard.
                                 
                                I believe you, Solveig and Kimiko, are talking about two different websites entirely. Please stop and make sure that you two are talking about the same website, as what is good or not on one site may not be the site you are talking about.
                                 
                                Nakos

                                From: art_fetish <art_fetish@...>
                                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 1:38 PM
                                Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: A thought on fair use, copyright and intellectual property


                                 

                                > Nolo has a couple of nice books out there about copyright, public domain, and fair use. I suggest reading one of them.
                                >
                                > Your Humble Servant
                                > Solveig Throndardottir
                                > Amateur Scholar

                                The world of copyright in the digital era is fast paced and aggressive. If the books are more then a year old, they are already out of date. Being a college grad with a business degree (I was considering law school with a focus on Copyright law...then I saw our local job market and changed my mind) - I am well versed with law having studied it in college, including a few copyright law class.

                                Here is the black and white that decides most copyright cases "Was a significant portion of the content republished in a manner that is harmful to the original source?" - nope in this case. In fact the object of my own postings was to encourage sales and get people to buy the books for their own education studies. Further more, even when there are infringements it normally comes down to a "cease and deist" order if it really goes too far. The materials published were not malicious, for profit, or even a significant portion of the books...and were shared encouraging purchases for educational studies.

                                I am done on this matter, and firmly stand in my choice to share and encourage others to consider these materials as good quality resources to buy. We can go round for ages on this, and frankly this is an SCA Japanese persona board not a copyright debate. As a middle ground Ill be certain to limit the photos shared in regards to reviews for educational research to roughly 3 - 10 tops.

                                Also, someone mentioned earlier that they dont buy books online without several preview photos, same here :). Which inspired me to check out these resources. Many of these resources I cant even find online, much less figure out their english translation...leaving nothing but photos to go on in term of it the book is relevant to our interests or not.

                                -Lady Kimiko




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • art_fetish
                                Oh gracious, really? Color me red faced. Welp, at least I made clear my own policy and justifications on my own sharing. -Lady Kimiko
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                                  Oh gracious, really?
                                  Color me red faced. Welp, at least I made clear my own policy and justifications on my own sharing.
                                  -Lady Kimiko

                                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Charles Dodge <greek_nakos@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Let me offer something for review that was said several messages ago by Richard.
                                  >  
                                  > I believe you, Solveig and Kimiko, are talking about two different websites entirely. Please stop and make sure that you two are talking about the same website, as what is good or not on one site may not be the site you are talking about.
                                  >  
                                  > Nakos
                                  >
                                  > From: art_fetish <art_fetish@...>
                                  > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 1:38 PM
                                  > Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: A thought on fair use, copyright and intellectual property
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >  
                                  >
                                  > > Nolo has a couple of nice books out there about copyright, public domain, and fair use. I suggest reading one of them.
                                  > >
                                  > > Your Humble Servant
                                  > > Solveig Throndardottir
                                  > > Amateur Scholar
                                  >
                                  > The world of copyright in the digital era is fast paced and aggressive. If the books are more then a year old, they are already out of date. Being a college grad with a business degree (I was considering law school with a focus on Copyright law...then I saw our local job market and changed my mind) - I am well versed with law having studied it in college, including a few copyright law class.
                                  >
                                  > Here is the black and white that decides most copyright cases "Was a significant portion of the content republished in a manner that is harmful to the original source?" - nope in this case. In fact the object of my own postings was to encourage sales and get people to buy the books for their own education studies. Further more, even when there are infringements it normally comes down to a "cease and deist" order if it really goes too far. The materials published were not malicious, for profit, or even a significant portion of the books...and were shared encouraging purchases for educational studies.
                                  >
                                  > I am done on this matter, and firmly stand in my choice to share and encourage others to consider these materials as good quality resources to buy. We can go round for ages on this, and frankly this is an SCA Japanese persona board not a copyright debate. As a middle ground Ill be certain to limit the photos shared in regards to reviews for educational research to roughly 3 - 10 tops.
                                  >
                                  > Also, someone mentioned earlier that they dont buy books online without several preview photos, same here :). Which inspired me to check out these resources. Many of these resources I cant even find online, much less figure out their english translation...leaving nothing but photos to go on in term of it the book is relevant to our interests or not.
                                  >
                                  > -Lady Kimiko
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • richard johnson
                                  A personal example. A am a writer. Not a famous writer, though in my own field I have a certain norotiaty. But still... last year, a person with whom I am
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Sep 19, 2011
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                                    A personal example.
                                    A am a writer.
                                    Not a famous writer, though in my own field I have a certain norotiaty.
                                    But still...

                                    last year, a person with whom I am cortdial but not friendly (my opinions
                                    conflict with his and so may of our technical works are at odds) sent me an
                                    e-mail informing me that someone on Ebay was selling my writings.

                                    It seems that he had taken a copy of one of my longer stories, copied it and
                                    was selling it for some $5 or so. withOUT notifying me or asking permission
                                    or paying me a percentage or anything!.

                                    So I reported him to ebay and complained to him and he stopped... for about
                                    three months, then he did it again.

                                    The kicker is that it wasn't even my best work!

                                    it happens!




                                    On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 11:38 AM, art_fetish <art_fetish@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Nolo has a couple of nice books out there about copyright, public domain,
                                    > and fair use. I suggest reading one of them.
                                    > >
                                    > > Your Humble Servant
                                    > > Solveig Throndardottir
                                    > > Amateur Scholar
                                    >
                                    > The world of copyright in the digital era is fast paced and aggressive. If
                                    > the books are more then a year old, they are already out of date. Being a
                                    > college grad with a business degree (I was considering law school with a
                                    > focus on Copyright law...then I saw our local job market and changed my
                                    > mind) - I am well versed with law having studied it in college, including a
                                    > few copyright law class.
                                    >
                                    > Here is the black and white that decides most copyright cases "Was a
                                    > significant portion of the content republished in a manner that is harmful
                                    > to the original source?" - nope in this case. In fact the object of my own
                                    > postings was to encourage sales and get people to buy the books for their
                                    > own education studies. Further more, even when there are infringements it
                                    > normally comes down to a "cease and deist" order if it really goes too far.
                                    > The materials published were not malicious, for profit, or even a
                                    > significant portion of the books...and were shared encouraging purchases for
                                    > educational studies.
                                    >
                                    > I am done on this matter, and firmly stand in my choice to share and
                                    > encourage others to consider these materials as good quality resources to
                                    > buy. We can go round for ages on this, and frankly this is an SCA Japanese
                                    > persona board not a copyright debate. As a middle ground Ill be certain to
                                    > limit the photos shared in regards to reviews for educational research to
                                    > roughly 3 - 10 tops.
                                    >
                                    > Also, someone mentioned earlier that they dont buy books online without
                                    > several preview photos, same here :). Which inspired me to check out these
                                    > resources. Many of these resources I cant even find online, much less figure
                                    > out their english translation...leaving nothing but photos to go on in term
                                    > of it the book is relevant to our interests or not.
                                    >
                                    > -Lady Kimiko
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    --
                                    Rick Johnson
                                    http://Rick-Johnson.webs.com
                                    "Those who give up a little freedom in return for a little imagined security
                                    will soon find that they have neither."


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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