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RE: [SCA-JML] names

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  • David Holt
    Sorry, I forgot my name was appearing differently on this account. The example of my own family name should have read, Holt . To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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      Sorry, I forgot my name was appearing differently on this account. The example of my own family name should have read, "Holt".




      To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
      From: kenjutsuka@...
      Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:59:08 -0500
      Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] names







      Jeanel, names have certain terminology which can be a little confusing. It seems that some terms you heard early on have gotten mixed up and are now causing additional confusion. I'm going to go back to the basics, so I'm sure some of this you are already clear on, but I don't want to miss anything.

      A faily name is a name shared by the entire family. In English the family name usually goes last and is sometimes called the "last name", but this is bad terminology to use when also discussing Japanese names since Japanese puts the family name first. In my family everyone uses the name Cowan. In yours I would guess everyone uses Walker. In Leanne's example of Kameyama Saburou Taka'atsu, Kameyama is the family name and is used by every member of the family, whether male or female.

      A given name is a name given to one person to identify that particular person. I think in Japanese there is usually only one person in the family with that name, though some cultures have a tradition of re-using a given name to show respect for an older family member with the same given name. In English, the given name goes first and is sometimes called the "first name". Again, this is bad terminology in this circumstance since it goes after the family name in Japanese. I believe in the time and social strata that we are talking about women had one given name and men had two. For a male the given name listed first (Saburou in the example above) is a personal/casual name and is only used by intimate relations (like close friends and family). The second given name (Taka'atsu in the example above) is a public/formal name used in non-intimate relationships. This second given name is the nanori - it is one kind of given name, but not all given names are nanori. Only the formal given names are nanori.

      I you are creating a male Japanese persona you get one of each - a family name, a personal given name, and a public given name (a nanori) - and they should be listed in that order.

      I hope that was helpful.

      Jeremy

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeanel Walker
      Bless you!!! thank you so very much for clearing that up for me. with my dyslexia I was having a time trying to understand the order and then get all fuddle
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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        Bless you!!! thank you so very much for clearing that up for me. with my dyslexia I was having a time trying to understand the order and then get all fuddle again.

        ok so then I need to find a group or family name I dont mind having and then find a personal intimate name.
        is there a list of family names? or is that the name that is the one that everyone calls the location name like under the mountain or middle of the rice field?



         
        May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
        Jeanel Walker aka Iolii or Takaatsu
        My Facebook Link =)My Deviant Art Page Link

         

        ________________________________
        From: David Holt <kenjutsuka@...>
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:59 AM
        Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] names


         

        Jeanel, names have certain terminology which can be a little confusing. It seems that some terms you heard early on have gotten mixed up and are now causing additional confusion. I'm going to go back to the basics, so I'm sure some of this you are already clear on, but I don't want to miss anything.

        A faily name is a name shared by the entire family. In English the family name usually goes last and is sometimes called the "last name", but this is bad terminology to use when also discussing Japanese names since Japanese puts the family name first. In my family everyone uses the name Cowan. In yours I would guess everyone uses Walker. In Leanne's example of Kameyama Saburou Taka'atsu, Kameyama is the family name and is used by every member of the family, whether male or female.

        A given name is a name given to one person to identify that particular person. I think in Japanese there is usually only one person in the family with that name, though some cultures have a tradition of re-using a given name to show respect for an older family member with the same given name. In English, the given name goes first and is sometimes called the "first name". Again, this is bad terminology in this circumstance since it goes after the family name in Japanese. I believe in the time and social strata that we are talking about women had one given name and men had two. For a male the given name listed first (Saburou in the example above) is a personal/casual name and is only used by intimate relations (like close friends and family). The second given name (Taka'atsu in the example above) is a public/formal name used in non-intimate relationships. This second given name is the nanori - it is one kind of given name, but not all given names
        are nanori. Only the formal given names are nanori.

        I you are creating a male Japanese persona you get one of each - a family name, a personal given name, and a public given name (a nanori) - and they should be listed in that order.

        I hope that was helpful.

        Jeremy

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Solveig Throndardottir
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... How you get called, even by your friends, is rather situational. Anyway, Taka atsu is unlikely to work as a family
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          > first name i mean by the name my friends would call me, sorry for the confusion. Im looking at Taka'atsu as a family name

          How you get called, even by your friends, is rather situational. Anyway, Taka'atsu is unlikely to work as a family name.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar
        • Solveig Throndardottir
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Ok .... Yes, most or at least many family names are locative in nature. That is they are names like 田中 Tanaka
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            > ok so then I need to find a group or family name I dont mind having and then find a personal intimate name.
            > is there a list of family names? or is that the name that is the one that everyone calls the location name like under the mountain or middle of the rice field?

            Ok .... Yes, most or at least many family names are locative in nature. That is they are names like 田中 Tanaka (middle of the rice field) &c. Another possibility is the -be (occupational) names. For example, Takabe 鷹部 might possibly work as an occupational family name for people who at one point were in the business of caring for hawks or agricultural units financially supporting imperial falconry. Regardless, Takabe appears to be a real Japanese surname as demonstrated by a quick web search. http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/%e9%b7%b9%e9%83%a8 That is one way, and probably the easiest, to preserve hawks in a documentable name.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar
          • Jennifer
            Now I want a Japanese name too. I m super fond of my name already, but I wonder about an equivalent in Japanese. You said family names can be places or
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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              Now I want a Japanese name too. I'm super fond of my name already, but I wonder about an equivalent in Japanese. You said family names can be places or occupations? How about the occupations of engineer? I realize that engineer may be a more modern word in the Japanese language. I am asking about the meaning - In the sense of the word where it applies to the maker of and user of siege weapons?

              Ylaire


              Sent from my iPhone

              On Aug 26, 2011, at 12:53, Jeanel Walker <brytephyre@...> wrote:

              > Bless you!!! thank you so very much for clearing that up for me. with my dyslexia I was having a time trying to understand the order and then get all fuddle again.
              >
              > ok so then I need to find a group or family name I dont mind having and then find a personal intimate name.
              > is there a list of family names? or is that the name that is the one that everyone calls the location name like under the mountain or middle of the rice field?
              >
              >
              > May the joy of your past be the worst of your tomorrows!!!
              > Jeanel Walker aka Iolii or Takaatsu
              > My Facebook Link =)My Deviant Art Page Link
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: David Holt <kenjutsuka@...>
              > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:59 AM
              > Subject: RE: [SCA-JML] names
              >
              >
              >
              > Jeanel, names have certain terminology which can be a little confusing. It seems that some terms you heard early on have gotten mixed up and are now causing additional confusion. I'm going to go back to the basics, so I'm sure some of this you are already clear on, but I don't want to miss anything.
              >
              > A faily name is a name shared by the entire family. In English the family name usually goes last and is sometimes called the "last name", but this is bad terminology to use when also discussing Japanese names since Japanese puts the family name first. In my family everyone uses the name Cowan. In yours I would guess everyone uses Walker. In Leanne's example of Kameyama Saburou Taka'atsu, Kameyama is the family name and is used by every member of the family, whether male or female.
              >
              > A given name is a name given to one person to identify that particular person. I think in Japanese there is usually only one person in the family with that name, though some cultures have a tradition of re-using a given name to show respect for an older family member with the same given name. In English, the given name goes first and is sometimes called the "first name". Again, this is bad terminology in this circumstance since it goes after the family name in Japanese. I believe in the time and social strata that we are talking about women had one given name and men had two. For a male the given name listed first (Saburou in the example above) is a personal/casual name and is only used by intimate relations (like close friends and family). The second given name (Taka'atsu in the example above) is a public/formal name used in non-intimate relationships. This second given name is the nanori - it is one kind of given name, but not all given names
              > are nanori. Only the formal given names are nanori.
              >
              > I you are creating a male Japanese persona you get one of each - a family name, a personal given name, and a public given name (a nanori) - and they should be listed in that order.
              >
              > I hope that was helpful.
              >
              > Jeremy
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anthony Bryant
              ... If your occupation is related to siege technology, you are a samurai, and have a real surname. Effingham
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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                On Aug 26, 2011, at 3:55 PM, Jennifer wrote:

                > Now I want a Japanese name too. I'm super fond of my name already, but I wonder about an equivalent in Japanese. You said family names can be places or occupations? How about the occupations of engineer? I realize that engineer may be a more modern word in the Japanese language. I am asking about the meaning - In the sense of the word where it applies to the maker of and user of siege weapons?


                If your occupation is related to siege technology, you are a samurai, and have a real surname.


                Effingham
              • Solveig Throndardottir
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Although the Japanese used oyumi in antiquity, there was not much use of siege weapons or to the best of my knowledge
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  > Now I want a Japanese name too. I'm super fond of my name already, but I wonder about an equivalent in Japanese. You said family names can be places or occupations? How about the occupations of engineer? I realize that engineer may be a more modern word in the Japanese language. I am asking about the meaning - In the sense of the word where it applies to the maker of and user of siege weapons?

                  Although the Japanese used oyumi in antiquity, there was not much use of siege weapons or to the best of my knowledge an occupational guild of people who made siege weapons. Ahh how about the Mononobe 物部 as I recall they were a kuge family which had a sort of monopoly on weapons in general during Japanese antiquity?

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
                • Ellen Badgley
                  ... Ah, yes, the Mononobe. Those people who deal with...things. *waves fan dismissively* Especially all those ugly ones with pointy bits. ( mono is
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 26, 2011
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                    > **
                    > Ahh how about the Mononobe 物部 as I recall they were a kuge family which
                    > had a sort of monopoly on weapons in general during Japanese antiquity?
                    >
                    > Your Humble Servant
                    > Solveig Throndardottir
                    > Amateur Scholar
                    >
                    >

                    Ah, yes, the Mononobe. Those people who deal with...things. *waves fan
                    dismissively* Especially all those ugly ones with pointy bits.

                    ("mono" is literally "thing", in one sense!)

                    - Abe Akirakeiko, kuge and don't you forget it


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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