Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Totally different name question

Expand Messages
  • hexslinger
    Ohayou gozaimasu! I ve recently received and started reading through _Name Construction in Medieval Japan_, and I m in the process of trying to construct names
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 22, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Ohayou gozaimasu!

      I've recently received and started reading through _Name Construction in Medieval Japan_, and I'm in the process of trying to construct names for both my husband and myself.

      As I understand things, surnames are mostly-only used by the male buke, and female buke would use the uji name instead? We were both interested in being from the Sou family. According to Wikipedia -- not the world's greatest source, I know -- the Sou family has been around since at least 1245, and is descended from either the Taira uji or the Koremune uji. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sō_clan

      Would that make him Sou no Koremune nani-nani and me Koremune uji no nyou (or is it uji-ko?) nani-nani?

      By the way, I'm still unclear as to what the "no Mae" part of the female name means on page 49; it isn't mentioned.

      Thanks in advance for your help and advice. ^_^
    • Solveig Throndardottir
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Your link is broken. Are you interested in the following (SHIFT-JIS encoded)
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 22, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        > As I understand things, surnames are mostly-only used by the male buke, and female buke would use the uji name instead? We were both interested in being from the Sou family. According to Wikipedia -- not the world's greatest source, I know -- the Sou family has been around since at least 1245, and is descended from either the Taira uji or the Koremune uji. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sō_clan

        Your link is broken. Are you interested in the following (SHIFT-JIS encoded) http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/html/sou_k.html

        It's a matter of time period. I currently believe that women were using uji names up until the Jokyu disturbance of 1221 and possibly a bit later in the Kamakura period. However, at some point marriage, inheritance, &c. patterns change and I believe that name formation changed in accordance with these.

        > Would that make him Sou no Koremune nani-nani and me Koremune uji no nyou (or is it uji-ko?) nani-nani?

        No. If Sou is a family name (and it appears to be one, see pg. 262 of NCMJ 2nd Ed. dating to the Nanboku period ca 1392) then his name should most likely be Sou <common name> Koremune. Your name would likely be Sou <personal name>. However, you have raised some interesting issues which I will have to think about.

        One has to do with the possible use of -no- with Sou. We do have examples of -no- being used with Sen. Both of these names are single-character names which take on-yomi (Sino-Japanese) readings. Of course Rikyuu 利休 itself is an artistic name and not a typical nanori or zokomyou.

        While I do seem to recall occasional use of 氏 in some women's names, I am pretty sure that it does not follow the pattern which you are suggesting. Regardless, I have an oppressive collection of writing projects at the moment, so I will not get out a 3rd edition of NCMJ until at least 2013 if that early. Then again, I may take up working on it as a way of blowing off steam from frustration with the other projects. That is how NCMJ came to be written in the first place. Oh well.

        > By the way, I'm still unclear as to what the "no Mae" part of the female name means on page 49; it isn't mentioned.

        It's one of the possible name-forming suffixes. -no- can sometimes be thought of as apostrophe-s in terms of Japanese syntax.

        丹波氏女伊夜前
        Tanba Uji no Nyou Iya no Mae

        Mae literally means "in front of". I looked up "gozen" in Daijirin and it pretty much cryptically called it a polite affix to women's names. Both elements should have similar function in names. Note that -nomae is 前 while -gozen is 御前

        I'm afraid that I will have to spend considerable time in Tsunoda (1988) to give a better answer.

        I have to be someplace in 30 minutes, so I will have to sign off on this note.


        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • hexslinger
        Apologies if this message comes through twice; I think I may have accidentally sent it already, but it may have also been eaten by a bad keystroke.
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 22, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Apologies if this message comes through twice; I think I may have accidentally sent it already, but it may have also been eaten by a bad keystroke.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sō_clan
          >
          > Your link is broken.

          You're right. Somehow either Firefox or Yahoo ate the o-with-macron that should be where the escape code is. If you substitute an o-with-macron there, it should take you to the correct page. Sorry about that.

          > Are you interested in the following (SHIFT-JIS encoded) http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/html/sou_k.html

          Yes, thank you. I had to run it through Babelfish to check (unfortunately I don't read Japanese ... yet!), and the mon is the same and the general gist of the text seems to be right, especially given all the references to Tsushima Island.

          > It's a matter of time period. I currently believe that women were using uji names up until the Jokyu disturbance of 1221 and possibly a bit later in the Kamakura period. However, at some point marriage, inheritance, &c. patterns change and I believe that name formation changed in accordance with these.

          Ah, OK. I think I must have missed that in the book somewhere, then. It's really dense; I know there are a lot of things that I haven't gotten a handle on even after multiple read-throughs.

          > No. If Sou is a family name (and it appears to be one, see pg. 262 of NCMJ 2nd Ed. dating to the Nanboku period ca 1392) then his name should most likely be Sou <common name> Koremune. Your name would likely be Sou <personal name>.

          Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'll pass that along to him and work on coming up with a personal name for myself.

          > However, you have raised some interesting issues which I will have to think about.

          Oops. Sorry. I tend to inadvertently do that to people.

          > One has to do with the possible use of -no- with Sou. We do have examples of -no- being used with Sen. Both of these names are single-character names which take on-yomi (Sino-Japanese) readings. Of course Rikyuu 利企Eitself is an artistic name and not a typical nanori or zokomyou.

          I had been wondering that myself. It's hard to find documentation on the Sou family in English, but what names I have found don't seem to include a -no-. Unfortunately, without being able to read Japanese, it's hard for me to delve deeper.

          >Regardless, I have an oppressive collection of writing projects at the moment, so I will not get out a 3rd edition of NCMJ until at least 2013 if that early. Then again, I may take up working on it as a way of blowing off steam from frustration with the other projects. That is how NCMJ came to be written in the first place. Oh well.

          Good luck with your projects! If you do decide to do a revision on NCMJ, may I request some additional examples of names in each period? It seems to me to be easier to pick out the "rules" from context when there are more examples that vary slightly in the details.


          > It's one of the possible name-forming suffixes. -no- can sometimes be thought of as apostrophe-s in terms of Japanese syntax.
          >
          > 丹波氏女伊夜前
          > Tanba Uji no Nyou Iya no Mae
          >
          > Mae literally means "in front of".

          Yes, it does -- that's part of why I was confused. Mae is also the name of the first kata I was taught when I was doing iaido, so I was sitting there going "Iya's front ... ?" and being mildly boggled. I'm sure I must have missed the notation for it being a suffix somewhere in the book; like I said -- there's so much information in there that I know I'm still not getting it all. Sorry about that.

          Thanks again for your help, Solveig! I appreciate it!
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.